Prime Marciano vs FOTC Ali

[yancey]

Nothing in Boxing says, 'Reliable Indicator,' like betting odds

Hard to believe you really don't see it, GI.

[yancey]

...and that would be based on beating...?

"...and that would be based on beating...?" GI

1. A washed-up, nice guy plodder in need of a payday.
2. A tall plodder with absolutely no offense. (be sure to thumb him anyway)
3. A once feared fighter reduced to a relatively harmless plodder after being shot all up with a .357 Magnum.

What a resume!

who did he avoid? He fought the best guys available or did I miss something?

It would not be hard to appear "unbeatable" against that kind of opposition.

That is the larger point.

[Goodnight, Irene]

"...and that would be based on beating...?" GI

1. A washed-up, nice guy plodder in need of a payday.
2. A tall plodder with absolutely no offense. (be sure to thumb him anyway)
3. A once feared fighter reduced to a relatively harmless plodder after being shot all up with a .357 Magnum.

What a resume!

who did he avoid? He fought the best guys available or did I miss something?

It would not be hard to appear "unbeatable" against that kind of opposition.

That is the larger point.

[keithmoonhangover]

"...and that would be based on beating...?" GI

1. A washed-up, nice guy plodder in need of a payday.
2. A tall plodder with absolutely no offense. (be sure to thumb him anyway)
3. A once feared fighter reduced to a relatively harmless plodder after being shot all up with a .357 Magnum.

What a resume!

who did he avoid? He fought the best guys available or did I miss something?

It would not be hard to appear "unbeatable" against that kind of opposition.

That is the larger point.

I'm not basing my 'unbeatable' comment on his opposition and never was. I just answered your question.

I think Ali was unbeatable, because I think given his style, foot and hand speed, defence, chin, determination, will to win, ability and attitude made him unbeatable.

I think he beats any heavyweight from history at that time. If you disagree, just tell me who beats him and why.

[hhaehre]

I think he beats any heavyweight from history at that time. If you disagree, just tell me who beats him and why.

Frazier beats him. Joe was equally dominant during the 1960s and he proved in FOTC that he had it in him to beat Ali. Ali may have lost a little in 71 but judged by his performance on the night in FOTC he hadn't lost much. It could also be argued that Frazier was better in 69, he certainly was healthier.
I wouldn't bet the farm on prime Joe vs. 67 Ali but if I had to choose I'd go with Frazier.

[Sportofkings]

I hear you brother, but Ali just before the ban was unbeatable. The Ali after the ban wasn't. His reflexes were slower after the ban.

...and that would be based on beating...?

"...and that would be based on beating...?" GI

1. A washed-up, nice guy plodder in need of a payday.
2. A tall plodder with absolutely no offense. (be sure to thumb him anyway)
3. A once feared fighter reduced to a relatively harmless plodder after being shot all up with a .357 Magnum.

What a resume!

Your just flat out underrating Ali's early reign resume here. Floyd patterson was a very good and underreated fighter who Ali just dominated. patterson then went out to beat some very good fighters after that. Sonny Liston was still a a beast when Ali beat him. Ernie Terrell was a good world class fighter when Ali beat him, regardless of what you say. George Chuvalo was another solid win.

Anyways its a bit ironic to be dissing Ali's level of competition when Rocky Marciano made his resume beating past it fighters and blown up light-heavyweights

[yancey]

...and that would be based on beating...?

"...and that would be based on beating...?" GI

1. A washed-up, nice guy plodder in need of a payday.
2. A tall plodder with absolutely no offense. (be sure to thumb him anyway)
3. A once feared fighter reduced to a relatively harmless plodder after being shot all up with a .357 Magnum.

What a resume!

Your just flat out underrating Ali's early reign resume here. Floyd patterson was a very good and underreated fighter who Ali just dominated. patterson then went out to beat some very good fighters after that. Sonny Liston was still a a beast when Ali beat him. Ernie Terrell was a good world class fighter when Ali beat him, regardless of what you say. George Chuvalo was another solid win.

Anyways its a bit ironic to be dissing Ali's level of competition when Rocky Marciano made his resume beating past it fighters and blown up light-heavyweights

Sonny Liston was a "beast" with uh, er, "balance issues".

Hey, would "Beast with Balance Issues" be a good nickname for a fighter?

Floyd Patterson was a cripple (lumbar issues) in his first fight with Ali.

Terrell? zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[hhaehre]

I am a great fan of Joe, but no way will i be convinced he wins if it was him in the other corner as opposed to either Ernie Terrell, or Zora Folly at those times. Ali was too good, too fast, and more importantly too elusive for Joe then.

Yet he was not elusive enough to stay off the ropes against Chuvalo in 66, go figure.

[yancey]

I think he beats any heavyweight from history at that time. If you disagree, just tell me who beats him and why.

Frazier beats him. Joe was equally dominant during the 1960s and he proved in FOTC that he had it in him to beat Ali. Ali may have lost a little in 71 but judged by his performance on the night in FOTC he hadn't lost much. It could also be argued that Frazier was better in 69, he certainly was healthier.
I wouldn't bet the farm on prime Joe vs. 67 Ali but if I had to choose I'd go with Frazier.

I can buy this.

Glad that you point out that '69 Joe was healthier than the FOTC version. He definitely seemed a bit quicker with the head movement and on his feet. Always wondered if breaking his ankle less than a year before the FOTC had any effect, but it never gets mentioned. Also would like to point out that Ali had FIVE times the rounds in the ring than Frazier in the six months leading up to the FOTC. That also never gets mentioned, but Ali's "exile" sure does, .

In any event, no freaking way is it "Ali all day long" vs prime Frazier.

Only the Ali Cabana Boy set would ever swallow that.

Speaking of swallow, maybe Connie can check in on this.

[keithmoonhangover]

I think he beats any heavyweight from history at that time. If you disagree, just tell me who beats him and why.

Frazier beats him. Joe was equally dominant during the 1960s and he proved in FOTC that he had it in him to beat Ali. Ali may have lost a little in 71 but judged by his performance on the night in FOTC he hadn't lost much. It could also be argued that Frazier was better in 69, he certainly was healthier.
I wouldn't bet the farm on prime Joe vs. 67 Ali but if I had to choose I'd go with Frazier.

I can buy this.

Glad that you point out that '69 Joe was healthier than the FOTC version. He definitely seemed a bit quicker with the head movement and on his feet. Always wondered if breaking his ankle less than a year before the FOTC had any effect, but it never gets mentioned. Also would like to point out that Ali had FIVE times the rounds in the ring than Frazier in the six months leading up to the FOTC. That also never gets mentioned, but Ali's "exile" sure does, .

In any event, no freaking way is it "Ali all day long" vs prime Frazier.

Only the Ali Cabana Boy set would ever swallow that.

Speaking of swallow, maybe Connie can check in on this.

You don't really answer the questions do you? Who do you think could beat a prime Ali and why?

[yancey]

Frazier beats him. Joe was equally dominant during the 1960s and he proved in FOTC that he had it in him to beat Ali. Ali may have lost a little in 71 but judged by his performance on the night in FOTC he hadn't lost much. It could also be argued that Frazier was better in 69, he certainly was healthier.
I wouldn't bet the farm on prime Joe vs. 67 Ali but if I had to choose I'd go with Frazier.

I can buy this.

Glad that you point out that '69 Joe was healthier than the FOTC version. He definitely seemed a bit quicker with the head movement and on his feet. Always wondered if breaking his ankle less than a year before the FOTC had any effect, but it never gets mentioned. Also would like to point out that Ali had FIVE times the rounds in the ring than Frazier in the six months leading up to the FOTC. That also never gets mentioned, but Ali's "exile" sure does, .

In any event, no freaking way is it "Ali all day long" vs prime Frazier.

Only the Ali Cabana Boy set would ever swallow that.

Speaking of swallow, maybe Connie can check in on this.

You don't really answer the questions do you? Who do you think could beat a prime Ali and why?

Yes, I answered the question by agreeing with hhaehre's thoughts on the matter.

You need to read closer.

'69 Frazier COULD have beaten '67 Ali. It would be a tough go ALWAYS between those two.

Anybody that thinks it is "Ali all day long" against '69 Frazier simply does NOT know what he is talking about.

Take that to the bank.

Frazier brought a relentless chase element to the equation that no other Ali opponent ever brought. He brought that swarming style with a all-time left hooking ability to which Ali COULD be susceptible.

He would have cut off the ring against Ali and MADE him fight three minutes a round.

Did you see any other Ali opponent do that?

Later, bud.

[Syntax Error]

How about immedately pre-ban Ali vs FOTC Frazier?

I've always wondered this.

I'd take Ali to win, but it would have been hard as hell for him, because Smokin' Joe's head movement was phenomenal.

This fight would have been close, with both fighters struggling to land cleanly, because Muhammad's foot speed would have kept him out of Joe's way & Joe's head movement & crouching would have made it difficult for Muhammad to land a lot of punches.

I'd take Ali by spilt decision.

[yancey]

LMAO, at the above.

That is probably K.M.hangovers whole point which I tend to agree with. The 67 version of Ali could have danced in hit Joe 3, 4 shots and be gone to bust Joe up and build a comfortable enough lead to take into the later rounds. The slower less mobile post 70 version simply couldn't.

Do you honestly think Ali was stupid enough to stand and fight Joe in their trilogy because he WANTED to? The legs to evade punches were just not there anymore. Even the version of Clay that refused to stand and trade with Liston would have given Joe nightmares, albeit that Joe was quicker on his feet and better at cutting off the ring than Sonny.

Just look at the few times Ali did dance around in the Frazier fights, frustrating Joe into standing up straight and shaking his head, beckoning Ali in. His bobbing and weaving his way in was only good when Ali was stationary, going back in straight lines, or on the ropes allowing Joe to get close and do what Joe does. His lateral movement ( Ali's ) was pretty much non existent post 70.

LMAO at the above.

Ali was all of 29 for the FOTC. The legs weren't gone.

Ali-Frazier is ALWAYS a tough fight for both men. Either COULD win. Frazier's style is made to order to always trouble the more physically gifted Ali.

No "all day long" whipping the other guy for either fighter. Anybody that believes that simply does not know what they are talking about.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I'd take Frazier & Louis over Clay. There are plenty of guys that could beat him.

Foreman
Charles
Walcott
Dempsey
Johnson
Norton would always be hell for him.
Holmes
Lewis
Bowe
I even think on his best day Witherspoon would give him a good go.

I don't think Marciano was one of them.

[Giancarlo]

I am a great fan of Joe, but no way will i be convinced he wins if it was him in the other corner as opposed to either Ernie Terrell, or Zora Folly at those times. Ali was too good, too fast, and more importantly too elusive for Joe then.

100% correct!

[Goodnight, Irene]

I am a great fan of Joe, but no way will i be convinced he wins if it was him in the other corner as opposed to either Ernie Terrell, or Zora Folly at those times. Ali was too good, too fast, and more importantly too elusive for Joe then.

100% correct!

Nothing proves you will whip Frazier like defeating Ernie Terrell and a washed-up Zora Folley, I guess. You two knuckleheads forgot to add his crowning glory...Cleve Williams

"100% correct!"

[hhaehre]

LMAO, at the above.

That is probably K.M.hangovers whole point which I tend to agree with. The 67 version of Ali could have danced in hit Joe 3, 4 shots and be gone to bust Joe up and build a comfortable enough lead to take into the later rounds. The slower less mobile post 70 version simply couldn't.

Do you honestly think Ali was stupid enough to stand and fight Joe in their trilogy because he WANTED to? The legs to evade punches were just not there anymore. Even the version of Clay that refused to stand and trade with Liston would have given Joe nightmares, albeit that Joe was quicker on his feet and better at cutting off the ring than Sonny.

Just look at the few times Ali did dance around in the Frazier fights, frustrating Joe into standing up straight and shaking his head, beckoning Ali in. His bobbing and weaving his way in was only good when Ali was stationary, going back in straight lines, or on the ropes allowing Joe to get close and do what Joe does. His lateral movement ( Ali's ) was pretty much non existent post 70.

Name me one fight where Ali danced for 15 rounds. To suggest that 67 Ali would beat prime Frazier is perfectly ok but to think it would be a walk in the park is ridiculous.
Here's another one for ya: Prime Norton would stand about a 1 in 3 chance to beat 67 Ali

[hhaehre]

I am a great fan of Joe, but no way will i be convinced he wins if it was him in the other corner as opposed to either Ernie Terrell, or Zora Folly at those times. Ali was too good, too fast, and more importantly too elusive for Joe then.

Yet he was not elusive enough to stay off the ropes against Chuvalo in 66, go figure.

I'm sure that after seeing Chuvalo KO such luminaries as Jim Christopher, Charley Chase, Mike Bruce, Charlie reno and other assorted bugs and earwigs, Ali was terrified to go to the ropes, and punch old George for fun.

As you say, go figure.

Yeah, I'm sure Ali just toyed with Chuvalo all night long and was never touched at all. He had to visit the hospital after the fight though, go figure.

[Ezzard]

LMAO, at the above.

That is probably K.M.hangovers whole point which I tend to agree with. The 67 version of Ali could have danced in hit Joe 3, 4 shots and be gone to bust Joe up and build a comfortable enough lead to take into the later rounds. The slower less mobile post 70 version simply couldn't.

Do you honestly think Ali was stupid enough to stand and fight Joe in their trilogy because he WANTED to? The legs to evade punches were just not there anymore. Even the version of Clay that refused to stand and trade with Liston would have given Joe nightmares, albeit that Joe was quicker on his feet and better at cutting off the ring than Sonny.

Just look at the few times Ali did dance around in the Frazier fights, frustrating Joe into standing up straight and shaking his head, beckoning Ali in. His bobbing and weaving his way in was only good when Ali was stationary, going back in straight lines, or on the ropes allowing Joe to get close and do what Joe does. His lateral movement ( Ali's ) was pretty much non existent post 70.

LMAO at the above.

Ali was all of 29 for the FOTC. The legs weren't gone.

Ali-Frazier is ALWAYS a tough fight for both men. Either COULD win. Frazier's style is made to order to always trouble the more physically gifted Ali.

No "all day long" whipping the other guy for either fighter. Anybody that believes that simply does not know what they are talking about.

Agree with Yancey

[Ezzard]

I'd take Frazier & Louis over Clay. There are plenty of guys that could beat him.

Foreman
Charles
Walcott
Dempsey
Johnson
Norton would always be hell for him.
Holmes
Lewis
Bowe
I even think on his best day Witherspoon would give him a good go.

I don't think Marciano was one of them.

That's a fair list. Ali would be favourite in most but they all could win.

['Frilla]

I'd take Frazier & Louis over Clay. There are plenty of guys that could beat him.

Foreman
Charles
Walcott
Dempsey
Johnson
Norton would always be hell for him.
Holmes
Lewis
Bowe
I even think on his best day Witherspoon would give him a good go.

I don't think Marciano was one of them.

That's a fair list. Ali would be favourite in most but they all could win.

Solid list, I agree most of them would trouble Ali, dont know enough about Charles or Walcott, but i could definitely see the rest trouble Ali.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Bowe would never beat Ali. Id give Marciano better odds.

Foreman would have to get Hail Mary lucky.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I'd take Frazier & Louis over Clay. There are plenty of guys that could beat him.

Foreman
Charles
Walcott
Dempsey
Johnson
Norton would always be hell for him.
Holmes
Lewis
Bowe
I even think on his best day Witherspoon would give him a good go.

I don't think Marciano was one of them.

That's a fair list. Ali would be favourite in most but they all could win.

Frazier and Louis are the only ones I would favor, but only slightly. Anyone who thinks Clay could fight that whole list and win every fight has lost their mind.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Bowe would never beat Ali. Id give Marciano better odds.

Foreman would have to get Hail Mary lucky.

I think Bowe could beat anyone.

[Ezzard]

I'd take Frazier & Louis over Clay. There are plenty of guys that could beat him.

Foreman
Charles
Walcott
Dempsey
Johnson
Norton would always be hell for him.
Holmes
Lewis
Bowe
I even think on his best day Witherspoon would give him a good go.

I don't think Marciano was one of them.

That's a fair list. Ali would be favourite in most but they all could win.

Frazier and Louis are the only ones I would favor, but only slightly. Anyone who thinks Clay could fight that whole list and win every fight has lost their mind.

I'd also put Holyfield on the list.

The man I'd back for the upset would be Walcott.