Prime Marciano vs FOTC Ali

[Crease]

Definitely Marciano.

Frazier, as great as he was, was very one-handed - all his power shots came from his Left - left hook to the body, left hook to the head.

Whereas Rocky had KO power in both of his fists. I would also say that Marciano had a better defence than Frazier, he was difficult to hit with the jab (as Ali said himself in 1970/1 when filming for the Superfight between them) and Marciano had probably the greatest engine in boxing.

So yeah, looking at it all... Everything points to a Marciano victory for me.

[Techno89]

I would still back Marciano to win

[dempseyfire]

Bowe would never beat Ali. Id give Marciano better odds.

Foreman would have to get Hail Mary lucky.

I think Bowe could beat anyone.

He beat the best boxer ever in Holyfield, so of course he could beat anyone . . .

I think a guy who couldn't do anything with Golota in 2 tries and lost on most ringside cards to a past-it Tubbs is not doing anything vs Ali. It would be target practice on Bowe's face.

And Foreman is on your list. I think that fight already happened . . .

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Your assertion that Bowe lost to Tubbs is hilarious, it wasn't even controversial. But yeah, another thread, another Dempsey hates Holyfield crack and shits on Bowe. Par for the course and quite dull.

Prime Foreman fought Ali before 67? Who won?

[Goodnight, Irene]

Definitely Marciano.

Frazier, as great as he was, was very one-handed - all his power shots came from his Left - left hook to the body, left hook to the head.

Whereas Rocky had KO power in both of his fists. I would also say that Marciano had a better defence than Frazier, he was difficult to hit with the jab (as Ali said himself in 1970/1 when filming for the Superfight between them) and Marciano had probably the greatest engine in boxing.

So yeah, looking at it all... Everything points to a Marciano victory for me.

One of Boxing's most enduring myths.

Go and ask Ali (and most other Frazier victims) if their ribs hurt on only one side after fighting Frazier.

[Giancarlo]

I am a great fan of Joe, but no way will i be convinced he wins if it was him in the other corner as opposed to either Ernie Terrell, or Zora Folly at those times. Ali was too good, too fast, and more importantly too elusive for Joe then.

100% correct!

Nothing proves you will whip Frazier like defeating Ernie Terrell and a washed-up Zora Folley, I guess. You two knuckleheads forgot to add his crowning glory...Cleve Williams

"100% correct!"

Bend over again, Irene. It's time for your oil change.

[yancey]

Definitely Marciano.

Frazier, as great as he was, was very one-handed - all his power shots came from his Left - left hook to the body, left hook to the head.

Whereas Rocky had KO power in both of his fists. I would also say that Marciano had a better defence than Frazier, he was difficult to hit with the jab (as Ali said himself in 1970/1 when filming for the Superfight between them) and Marciano had probably the greatest engine in boxing.

So yeah, looking at it all... Everything points to a Marciano victory for me.

One of Boxing's most enduring myths.

Go and ask Ali (and most other Frazier victims) if their ribs hurt on only one side after fighting Frazier.

[Goodnight, Irene]

100% correct!

Nothing proves you will whip Frazier like defeating Ernie Terrell and a washed-up Zora Folley, I guess. You two knuckleheads forgot to add his crowning glory...Cleve Williams

"100% correct!"

Bend over again, Irene. It's time for your oil change.

Stand by your maaaan,
Let all the world know you love him,
Give all the love you can!

Here's my favourite thing about you, Collie. While I continue to laugh at you, we will both forever know I got to you so bad, so beneath the skin, that you pleaded to actually meet and fight me...and not because I ever even insulted you, but because I insulted Ali

I mean, I cant imagine ever wanting to fight Elmer for anti-De La Hoya comments. Can anyone else here picture themselves chasing a brawl with an anonymous internet poster over remarks ABOUT A BOXER'S CAREER!?

Thats love, I guess...in a really creepy, disturbing way.

[Giancarlo]

Irene, stop with the PMs already!

No, I don't want to be involved in a troika with you and Antoine from your modern dance group any time soon.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Irene, stop with the PMs already!

No, I don't want to be involved in a troika with you and Antoine from your modern dance group any time soon.

At least if you were going to revert to your oldest, most well-worn, "trick," of pretending to the forum I send you PM's, you could put something vaguely convincing out there

BTW, Ali blows. Losing to a 7-fight Leon Spinks (hell, any Leon Spinks, as it turned out) is the saddest thing Ive ever heard of. At comparable ages (and just as far removed from their peak), Foreman and Holmes were giving a prime Holyfield all he could handle, and Louis was competing with the likes of Walcott, Bivins and Marciano.

LOL D

[Goodnight, Irene]

Bowe would never beat Ali. Id give Marciano better odds.

Foreman would have to get Hail Mary lucky.

I think Bowe could beat anyone.

I would give him some semblance of chance against anyone...except Ali. That's the one guy I think he'd be completely out of the contest with, for mine.

I will say Bowe would do better (win or lose) against the greats than his place in history (on my list) would suggest. You can look at that from contrasting angles --- he was a very capable fighter on one hand, but thusly under-achieved in his career on the other.

[Goodnight, Irene]

That's a fair list. Ali would be favourite in most but they all could win.

Frazier and Louis are the only ones I would favor, but only slightly. Anyone who thinks Clay could fight that whole list and win every fight has lost their mind.

I'd also put Holyfield on the list.

The man I'd back for the upset would be Walcott.

Walcott is a sneaky shout with some real credibility to it, but of all the guys on my top-10 list of ATG Heavies, I have to say Holyfield has the least chance of upsetting Ali. I just cant see him ever beating Ali with his tools, personally.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Frazier and Louis are the only ones I would favor, but only slightly. Anyone who thinks Clay could fight that whole list and win every fight has lost their mind.

I'd also put Holyfield on the list.

The man I'd back for the upset would be Walcott.

Walcott is a sneaky shout with some real credibility to it, but of all the guys on my top-10 list of ATG Heavies, I have to say Holyfield has the least chance of upsetting Ali. I just cant see him ever beating Ali with his tools, personally.

No way he beats the earlier version we are speaking of. A prime Holyfield against the older lay on the ropes guy would be ugly for Ali. But that's not really fair to Muhammad, so I left Evander off of the list. As for Bowe, you could be right, he was quite nasty at his best. A jab that could measure up to Ali's and a terrific in-fighter. While I wouldn't rate his chances high, that package is too much for me to completely rule out. I'd have more names of guys that could, the Ali love in this forum is other worldly.

[Ezzard]

Holy had a terrific left hook, doesn’t fade, is mentally strong, good mobility. I think he has a chance. Ali won’t break his will. He will have to outbox him over 15. I think he’d do it but it wouldn’t be easy.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I'd also put Holyfield on the list.

The man I'd back for the upset would be Walcott.

Walcott is a sneaky shout with some real credibility to it, but of all the guys on my top-10 list of ATG Heavies, I have to say Holyfield has the least chance of upsetting Ali. I just cant see him ever beating Ali with his tools, personally.

No way he beats the earlier version we are speaking of. A prime Holyfield against the older lay on the ropes guy would be ugly for Ali. But that's not really fair to Muhammad, so I left Evander off of the list. As for Bowe, you could be right, he was quite nasty at his best. A jab that could measure up to Ali's and a terrific in-fighter. While I wouldn't rate his chances high, that package is too much for me to completely rule out. I'd have more names of guys that could, the Ali love in this forum is other worldly.

I dont know about, "ugly," (Holyfield couldnt put a dent in 70's Ali if Ali just sat there and let him tee off for fifteen rounds) but Id probably take Holyfield over the Ali who beat Foreman and Frazier (and who IMO would beat a peak Tyson), as well. Too precise, too crisp and too fast with his arsenal. Holyfield would outwork Ali circa 1972-79, IMO (Im less sure about FOTC Ali, however).

[Goodnight, Irene]

Holy had a terrific left hook, doesn’t fade, is mentally strong, good mobility. I think he has a chance. Ali won’t break his will. He will have to outbox him over 15. I think he’d do it but it wouldn’t be easy.

He faded more than once, although showed good endurance at other times as well. I just think his tools are all wrong to tackle the elite movers (Ali, Holmes). He cant seriously threaten Ali with his power or use it to quickly turn the bout in his favour, and he would be unable to outbox Ali because of the speed deficit (hand and foot both) and that was more Ali's game anyway.

The rounds Holyfield did bank would owe to timing, and eye-catching left hooks, to which Ali was somewhat available --- but he cant KO or outbox Ali, and he isnt going to win seven or eight rounds on timing alone.

It's an Ali win every time, IMO.

[keithmoonhangover]

LMAO, at the above.

That is probably K.M.hangovers whole point which I tend to agree with. The 67 version of Ali could have danced in hit Joe 3, 4 shots and be gone to bust Joe up and build a comfortable enough lead to take into the later rounds. The slower less mobile post 70 version simply couldn't.

Do you honestly think Ali was stupid enough to stand and fight Joe in their trilogy because he WANTED to? The legs to evade punches were just not there anymore. Even the version of Clay that refused to stand and trade with Liston would have given Joe nightmares, albeit that Joe was quicker on his feet and better at cutting off the ring than Sonny.

Just look at the few times Ali did dance around in the Frazier fights, frustrating Joe into standing up straight and shaking his head, beckoning Ali in. His bobbing and weaving his way in was only good when Ali was stationary, going back in straight lines, or on the ropes allowing Joe to get close and do what Joe does. His lateral movement ( Ali's ) was pretty much non existent post 70.

LMAO at the above.

Ali was all of 29 for the FOTC. The legs weren't gone.

Ali-Frazier is ALWAYS a tough fight for both men. Either COULD win. Frazier's style is made to order to always trouble the more physically gifted Ali.

No "all day long" whipping the other guy for either fighter. Anybody that believes that simply does not know what they are talking about.

That is pure garbage. The man had had an enforced 3 year lay off. Of course the legs were gone, along with the footspeed they created.

[Ezzard]

His legs were gone. He was just a torso on a skateboard at that point. Like the little fella in that one horse town in "The Good, The Bad And The Ugly." Or that bald guy at the end of the video game "Smash TV". Or Davros from Doctor Who.

[keithmoonhangover]

His legs were gone. He was just a torso on a skateboard at that point. Like the little fella in that one horse town in "The Good, The Bad And The Ugly." Or that bald guy at the end of the video game "Smash TV". Or Davros from Doctor Who.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Funny how Ali's legs being gone coincided with Frazier beginning to turn the tide after a slow start in the FOTC. In the early going, before Frazier had reined him in, Ali's legs showed plenty of bounce and mobility.

Someone arguing Ali had lost some footspeed or mobility is fair enough...someone arguing his, "legs were gone," immediately post-layoff can kiss Joe Frazier's left hook

[keithmoonhangover]

Funny how Ali's legs being gone coincided with Frazier beginning to turn the tide after a slow start in the FOTC. In the early going, before Frazier had reined him in, Ali's legs showed plenty of bounce and mobility.

Someone arguing Ali had lost some footspeed or mobility is fair enough...someone arguing his, "legs were gone," immediately post-layoff can kiss Joe Frazier's left hook

Even in the first round, his foot speed and movement aren't as good as they were in the Terrell fight. Watch the footage.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Read my post again.

[hhaehre]

I'm sure that after seeing Chuvalo KO such luminaries as Jim Christopher, Charley Chase, Mike Bruce, Charlie reno and other assorted bugs and earwigs, Ali was terrified to go to the ropes, and punch old George for fun.

As you say, go figure.

Yeah, I'm sure Ali just toyed with Chuvalo all night long and was never touched at all. He had to visit the hospital after the fight though, go figure.

He also had to go to the hospital to have his eye stitched when Bob Foster cut it with a punch. So your point is?

Let me spoon feed my point to you real slow:
Fact 1: Chuvalo hit the unbeatable dancing Ali of the 60's with enough body punches to warrant a post fight trip to the hospital.

Fact 2: Frazier was a far better boxer than Chuvalo and a much harder puncher

Conclusion based on fact 1 and fact 2: Frazier would get to unbeatable dancing Ali of the 60's and win, loose or draw Ali would know he had been in a fight.

Btw, how many stitches did Joe need after his 4 minute destruction of Foster?

[raylawpc]

Yeah, I'm sure Ali just toyed with Chuvalo all night long and was never touched at all. He had to visit the hospital after the fight though, go figure.

He also had to go to the hospital to have his eye stitched when Bob Foster cut it with a punch. So your point is?

Let me spoon feed my point to you real slow:
Fact 1: Chuvalo hit the unbeatable dancing Ali of the 60's with enough body punches to warrant a post fight trip to the hospital.

Fact 2: Frazier was a far better boxer than Chuvalo and a much harder puncher

Conclusion based on fact 1 and fact 2: Frazier would get to unbeatable dancing Ali of the 60's and win, loose or draw Ali would know he had been in a fight.

Btw, how many stitches did Joe need after his 4 minute destruction of Foster?

This is an excellent post, IMO.

[keithmoonhangover]

Read my post again.

I read it right the first time.