crusader wrote:A very strong argument can be made that Jones is top 15.
What with 8 loses ..surely to break in to the top 15 you gotta be beating top 15 or less opponents ? who has jones fought/beat to be in the top 15 ?
It just seems to be the trend with most of our fighters,they all wanna pad their records with bums ,Cleverly is doing the same and the only good fighter he fought he wont rematch
People go on about Calzaghe and i know he fought a few bums but at least by his 22nd fight he was fighting former world champions like Eubank etc
Last edited by CiganoBoxer on 11 May 2012, 03:36, edited 1 time in total.
mrpedigree wrote:How is it a decent fight ? Jones has 8 loses and has been stopped a couple of times,ffs he got KOed by Alfonso Gomez
If you wanna believe in the hype and Brook is really world class ...why ent he fighting credible opponents ?
Nearly every oponent brook has fought has had 5-12 loses,and Brook has had 27 fights FFS...he ent fought one unbeaten hungry guy yet ,But sky and his nut hugging fans would have you believe that this represents him being world class
Who would you have then?
And don't get so hung up on records, Jones is a very good opponent.
Well surely at 27 fights and being proclaimed world class by everyman and his dog ,Brook should be fighting guys from the top ten or 15 at least dont you think ?
Lets see him test himself and fight someone unbeaten or hungry for a change thats all i am sayin .
It's a decent fight as it's a fighter who has momentum and is confident coming in on the back of 3 or 4 very credible wins. Sure he's not rampaging through the top 10 but very few fighters have been ripping through top 10's in recent years.
A top 10-15 fighter? The IBF have Carson ranked #3 (they have Brook #5) so this will be effectively an eliminator (with Mike Jones #1 and Randall Bailey #2). We all know he won't be getting a shot at the WBO title (Pacquiao) the WBC title seems to be in limbo at the time of speaking and whilst Malignaggi (WBA) might not be a bad route he's just fought so it'll likely be 6 months before Paulie fights. A win over Jones will give Brook 2 options, he could chase the IBF or the WBA titles over the next year.
crusader wrote:A very strong argument can be made that Jones is top 15.
What with 8 loses
It just seems to be the trend with most of our fighters,they all wanna pad their records with bums ,Cleverly is doing the same and the only good fighter he fought he wont rematch
People go on about Calzaghe and i know he fought a few bums but at least by his 22nd fight he was fighting former world champions like Eubank etc
crusader wrote:A very strong argument can be made that Jones is top 15.
What with 8 loses
It just seems to be the trend with most of our fighters,they all wanna pad their records with bums ,Cleverly is doing the same and the only good fighter he fought he wont rematch
People go on about Calzaghe and i know he fought a few bums but at least by his 22nd fight he was fighting former world champions like Eubank etc
So 8 losses makes them a bad fighter does it?
Depends on who you have lost to ...who has Jones lost to ?
crusader wrote:A very strong argument can be made that Jones is top 15.
What with 8 loses
It just seems to be the trend with most of our fighters,they all wanna pad their records with bums ,Cleverly is doing the same and the only good fighter he fought he wont rematch
People go on about Calzaghe and i know he fought a few bums but at least by his 22nd fight he was fighting former world champions like Eubank etc
No wonder we get crap match making where fighters defend their 0's like a new born child with comments like this. Tomas Rojas has 13 losses, Orlando Salido has 11, Sonny Boy Jaro has 10, Jhonny Gonzalez has 7 (so do Rafael Marquez, Zab Judah, Humberto Soto, Randall Bailey and Hugo Fidel Cazares), Jorge Arce has 6 (so do Julio Cesar Miranda and Juan Manuel Marquez) Kendall Holt has 5
I think you see where this is going...losses early in a guys career doesn't mean they are crap.
crusader wrote:A very strong argument can be made that Jones is top 15.
What with 8 loses ..surely to break in to the top 15 you gotta be beating top 15 or less opponents ? who has jones fought/beat to be in the top 15 ?
It just seems to be the trend with most of our fighters,they all wanna pad their records with bums ,Cleverly is doing the same and the only good fighter he fought he wont rematch
People go on about Calzaghe and i know he fought a few bums but at least by his 22nd fight he was fighting former world champions like Eubank etc
Why should losses preclude someone from being highly ranked when they have since improved and scored good wins?
I don't agree that a fighter needs to beat top 15 opposition to enter the top 15; several wins over lower ranked fighters may be enough. But if fighters are ranked no higher than their best win, Jones is still close to the top 15 because he knocked out Said Ouali, who was then around the top 20. Your assessment of Jones highlights your ignorance of him; he has beat decent fighters, punches hard, puts his shots together well, and is very experienced for his age.
What Calzaghe did is irrelevant; Brook has taken a different path and at 26 he will be fighting another word ranked opponent. With a victory he will be in prime position for a title shot.
Bobby is Jones' manager and it's great to see they're coming here to win, because let's face it, Kell needs a test.
But I wasn't going by Carson's record when I said I thought he was going to get beaten - win / loss ratio means nothing until you see who they've been up against. It more to do with the youtube footage I looked at: getting wobbled by Gomez showed he's not got the best of chins - and while he looks a decent enough puncher, Kell's chin seems good so far, and Jones looks wide open in some of his fights - not much defence there.
Said Ouali might've been ranked 15, but not sure how: he was bombed out 2 fights before by Bailey, only to get a ND due to Bailey throwing him out of the ring.
MightyWarrior wrote:Bobby is Jones' manager and it's great to see they're coming here to win, because let's face it, Kell needs a test.
But I wasn't going by Carson's record when I said I thought he was going to get beaten - win / loss ratio means nothing until you see who they've been up against. It more to do with the youtube footage I looked at: getting wobbled by Gomez showed he's not got the best of chins - and while he looks a decent enough puncher, Kell's chin seems good so far, and Jones looks wide open in some of his fights - not much defence there.
Said Ouali might've been ranked 15, but not sure how: he was bombed out 2 fights before by Bailey, only to get a ND due to Bailey throwing him out of the ring.
Because it was an ND and because prior to that Ouali was robbed in a Split decision against WBA champ Selcuk Aydin.
The Carson Jones of today is so much different than the Carson Jones that fought Alfonso Gomez that its not even comparable. That fight was 6 years and almost 30 fights ago. You are watching a 19 year old Carson Jones in a fight he trained himself two weeks for. He would demolish Gomez today.
Also Brook got dropped and hurt badly by a much lesser opponent than Gomez earlier in his career...
Last edited by BobbyDobbs on 11 May 2012, 10:45, edited 1 time in total.
MightyWarrior wrote:Bobby is Jones' manager and it's great to see they're coming here to win, because let's face it, Kell needs a test.
But I wasn't going by Carson's record when I said I thought he was going to get beaten - win / loss ratio means nothing until you see who they've been up against. It more to do with the youtube footage I looked at: getting wobbled by Gomez showed he's not got the best of chins - and while he looks a decent enough puncher, Kell's chin seems good so far, and Jones looks wide open in some of his fights - not much defence there.
Said Ouali might've been ranked 15, but not sure how: he was bombed out 2 fights before by Bailey, only to get a ND due to Bailey throwing him out of the ring.
Because it was an ND and because prior to that Ouali was robbed in a Split decision against WBA champ Selcuk Aydin.
The Carson Jones of today is so much different than the Carson Jones that fought Alfonso Gomez that its not even comparable. That fight was 6 years and almost 30 fights ago. You are watching a 19 year old Carson Jones in a fight he trained himself two weeks for. He would demolish Gomez today.
Also Brook got dropped and hurt badly by a much lesser opponent than Gomez earlier in his career...
Brook was dropped, yes, but 'badly hurt' is ridiculously wide of the mark. He got straight back up and was totally fine, though he got nailed square on by a good shot. I'm not totally sold on Brook either, I doubt he's anywhere near as good as some suspect, but let's not reinvent history.
So frustrating when people just look at a record and ðecide a fighter is a bum. The majority of Jones's losses came when he was in his teens/early twenties when he was still trying to learn the game. He is a good example of where hard work and learning from your defeats gets you in boxing. He will give it a good crack like he always does and Brook won't have it all his own way.
MightyWarrior wrote:Bobby is Jones' manager and it's great to see they're coming here to win, because let's face it, Kell needs a test.
But I wasn't going by Carson's record when I said I thought he was going to get beaten - win / loss ratio means nothing until you see who they've been up against. It more to do with the youtube footage I looked at: getting wobbled by Gomez showed he's not got the best of chins - and while he looks a decent enough puncher, Kell's chin seems good so far, and Jones looks wide open in some of his fights - not much defence there.
Said Ouali might've been ranked 15, but not sure how: he was bombed out 2 fights before by Bailey, only to get a ND due to Bailey throwing him out of the ring.
Because it was an ND and because prior to that Ouali was robbed in a Split decision against WBA champ Selcuk Aydin.
The Carson Jones of today is so much different than the Carson Jones that fought Alfonso Gomez that its not even comparable. That fight was 6 years and almost 30 fights ago. You are watching a 19 year old Carson Jones in a fight he trained himself two weeks for. He would demolish Gomez today.
Also Brook got dropped and hurt badly by a much lesser opponent than Gomez earlier in his career...
Brook was dropped, yes, but 'badly hurt' is ridiculously wide of the mark. He got straight back up and was totally fine, though he got nailed square on by a good shot. I'm not totally sold on Brook either, I doubt he's anywhere near as good as some suspect, but let's not reinvent history.
He was definately hurt.
And the second part is the most frustrating of all for us, because today everyone acts like this is such a mismatch and Brook is taking an easy fight. But, when Carson knocks this guy out it will be talk of how Brook was overrated and he wasnt as good as his record etc...
iamasadlittleboy wrote:Really decent fight IMO and it SHOULD be serving as an INF eliminator with the winner to face the Bailey/Jones winner...
How is it a decent fight ? Jones has 8 loses and has been stopped a couple of times,ffs he got KOed by Alfonso Gomez
If you wanna believe in the hype and Brook is really world class ...why ent he fighting credible opponents ?
Nearly every oponent brook has fought has had 5-12 loses,and Brook has had 27 fights FFS...he ent fought one unbeaten hungry guy yet ,But sky and his nut hugging fans would have you believe that this represents him being world class
Clear you have never seen him fight, just seen his record and made a judgement
BobbyDobbs wrote:
Because it was an ND and because prior to that Ouali was robbed in a Split decision against WBA champ Selcuk Aydin.
The Carson Jones of today is so much different than the Carson Jones that fought Alfonso Gomez that its not even comparable. That fight was 6 years and almost 30 fights ago. You are watching a 19 year old Carson Jones in a fight he trained himself two weeks for. He would demolish Gomez today.
Also Brook got dropped and hurt badly by a much lesser opponent than Gomez earlier in his career...
Brook was dropped, yes, but 'badly hurt' is ridiculously wide of the mark. He got straight back up and was totally fine, though he got nailed square on by a good shot. I'm not totally sold on Brook either, I doubt he's anywhere near as good as some suspect, but let's not reinvent history.
He was definately hurt.
And the second part is the most frustrating of all for us, because today everyone acts like this is such a mismatch and Brook is taking an easy fight. But, when Carson knocks this guy out it will be talk of how Brook was overrated and he wasnt as good as his record etc...
Brook arguably hasn't beaten anyone of note. So, I'll be in the camp saying he was overrated if he loses to Jones. Life's a bitch, eh?
MightyWarrior wrote:Bobby is Jones' manager and it's great to see they're coming here to win, because let's face it, Kell needs a test.
But I wasn't going by Carson's record when I said I thought he was going to get beaten - win / loss ratio means nothing until you see who they've been up against. It more to do with the youtube footage I looked at: getting wobbled by Gomez showed he's not got the best of chins - and while he looks a decent enough puncher, Kell's chin seems good so far, and Jones looks wide open in some of his fights - not much defence there.
Said Ouali might've been ranked 15, but not sure how: he was bombed out 2 fights before by Bailey, only to get a ND due to Bailey throwing him out of the ring.
Because it was an ND and because prior to that Ouali was robbed in a Split decision against WBA champ Selcuk Aydin.
The Carson Jones of today is so much different than the Carson Jones that fought Alfonso Gomez that its not even comparable. That fight was 6 years and almost 30 fights ago. You are watching a 19 year old Carson Jones in a fight he trained himself two weeks for. He would demolish Gomez today.
Also Brook got dropped and hurt badly by a much lesser opponent than Gomez earlier in his career...
Sir; I respect your judgement and experience and hesitate to corect you; surely; you meant, 'The Gomez'?
MightyWarrior wrote:Bobby is Jones' manager and it's great to see they're coming here to win, because let's face it, Kell needs a test.
But I wasn't going by Carson's record when I said I thought he was going to get beaten - win / loss ratio means nothing until you see who they've been up against. It more to do with the youtube footage I looked at: getting wobbled by Gomez showed he's not got the best of chins - and while he looks a decent enough puncher, Kell's chin seems good so far, and Jones looks wide open in some of his fights - not much defence there.
Said Ouali might've been ranked 15, but not sure how: he was bombed out 2 fights before by Bailey, only to get a ND due to Bailey throwing him out of the ring.
Because it was an ND and because prior to that Ouali was robbed in a Split decision against WBA champ Selcuk Aydin.
The Carson Jones of today is so much different than the Carson Jones that fought Alfonso Gomez that its not even comparable. That fight was 6 years and almost 30 fights ago. You are watching a 19 year old Carson Jones in a fight he trained himself two weeks for. He would demolish Gomez today.
Also Brook got dropped and hurt badly by a much lesser opponent than Gomez earlier in his career...
Sir; I respect your judgement and experience and hesitate to corect you; surely; you meant, 'The Gomez'?
BobbyDobbs wrote:
Because it was an ND and because prior to that Ouali was robbed in a Split decision against WBA champ Selcuk Aydin.
The Carson Jones of today is so much different than the Carson Jones that fought Alfonso Gomez that its not even comparable. That fight was 6 years and almost 30 fights ago. You are watching a 19 year old Carson Jones in a fight he trained himself two weeks for. He would demolish Gomez today.
Also Brook got dropped and hurt badly by a much lesser opponent than Gomez earlier in his career...
Sir; I respect your judgement and experience and hesitate to corect you; surely; you meant, 'The Gomez'?
Decent fight this. I had a quick look at the Boxrec top 10 at Welter, and with the possible exception of Devon Alexander, Carson Jones is the only other fighter in the 10 who doesn't have something else lined up or has recently fought. We really need to stop judging fighters on the bare statistics, you can learn from defeats, and Jones has certainly improved over the last 3-4 years.
Bobby needs to face up that he is facing the TRUTH and that Kell will dismantle Carson Jones 1000000% focussed on this fight and putting a good show on for the fans.
If the stoppage is there he will certainly be taking if not will be a wide points win - Carson Jones is the biggest test Kell has and the better they are the better Kell is...
We will see if everyone says Kell is all hype after this but the critics will still be there until he fights a Berto/Ortiz/ top 5 Welterweight etc
I think the winner will face the Bailey/Jones for World Title or maybe Malignaggi if he still has the belts
Black Sam Bellamy wrote:Carson Jones drew with club fighter Delray Raines on his 32nd fight. Is this guy any better than Matthew Hatton ? I suggest no.
Black Sam Bellamy wrote:Carson Jones drew with club fighter Delray Raines on his 32nd fight. Is this guy any better than Matthew Hatton ? I suggest no.
..surely to break in to the top 15 you gotta be beating top 15 or less opponents ? who has jones fought/beat to be in the top 15 ? 
