When Were They In Their Primes? (All Opinions Welcome)

[keithmoonhangover]

We always talk about different fighters and it's hard to say when they were at their absolute best (not just their best performance), so I thought I would start this thread.

It would be nice for once if the thread didn't turn into the same childish arguement between the same people - I can hope can't I!

Lets start with some mordern heavyweights.

Holyfield.... I'd have to go for late 88-89 Thomas and Dokes. He looked fantastic back then.

Lewis........ Round about the Golota and Briggs fights.

Tyson....... For me it's the Spinks fight, he was still training right and blew away a world class operator.

Bowe........ First Holyfield fight.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Holyfield (1988-92)

Lewis (1997-02)

Tyson (1986-90)

Bowe (1991-93)

[Syntax Error]

Holyfield - 1988 - 1992

Tyson - 1986 - 1989

Lewis - 1996 - 2001

Bowe - 13th November 1992

[dempseyfire]

Holyfied - 1988 - 1992

Tyson - 1986 - 1989

Lewis - 1996 - 2001

Bowe - 13th November 1992

I concur with these but would have Tyson be 1986-1990 (just b/c Buster beat him up doesn't suddenly mean he was out of his prime).

[Goodnight, Irene]

Holyfied - 1988 - 1992

Tyson - 1986 - 1989

Lewis - 1996 - 2001

Bowe - 13th November 1992

I concur with these but would have Tyson be 1986-1990 (just b/c Buster beat him up doesn't suddenly mean he was out of his prime).

Bingo. No one was saying that before the bout, and had Tyson won, nobody wouldve been saying it after. Thats all you need to know.

[Ezzard]

Truth probably is that Tyson had already lost some of his intensity and Spartan lifestyle. He just got away with it because he was blowing people out with intimidation, power and accuracy.

Then again he always unhinged as shown with the Mitch Green nonsense.

I do doubt that it would be possible though for a guy to grow up like he did, make so much money so quickly and not take his eye of the prize.

Holyfield had his off nights but he could always climb the mountain again. That’s a big plus.

[Syntax Error]

Holyfied - 1988 - 1992

Tyson - 1986 - 1989

Lewis - 1996 - 2001

Bowe - 13th November 1992

I concur with these but would have Tyson be 1986-1990 (just b/c Buster beat him up doesn't suddenly mean he was out of his prime).

Bingo. No one was saying that before the bout, and had Tyson won, nobody wouldve been saying it after. Thats all you need to know.

You can only make such judgements after a fighter's career has ended.

Tyson looked so far removed from what he did from 1986 - 89, it would not be crazy to suggest that he wasn't in his prime in 1990.

You could turn the argument round & say he was still in his prime in 1991, when he fought Ruddock, despite the fact that he'd stopped moving his head & throwing combinations then.

[keithmoonhangover]

I concur with these but would have Tyson be 1986-1990 (just b/c Buster beat him up doesn't suddenly mean he was out of his prime).

Bingo. No one was saying that before the bout, and had Tyson won, nobody wouldve been saying it after. Thats all you need to know.

You can only make such judgements after a fighter's career has ended.

Tyson looked so far removed from what he did from 1986 - 89, it would not be crazy to suggest that he wasn't in his prime in 1990.

You could turn the argument round & say he was still in his prime in 1991, when he fought Ruddock, despite the fact that he'd stopped moving his head & throwing combinations then.

Tyson admits that he stopped training properly after the Spinks fight, add to that he got rid of Kevin Rooney before the Douglas fight.

[Ezzard]

Not being in your prime to me means…

Not in your best weight class
Age or wear and tear have eroded your speed, power, stamina, punch resistance, etc…

Perhaps carrying an injury.

Not being bothered to train, in my opinion, is not the same thing.

[keithmoonhangover]

Not being in your prime to me means…

Not in your best weight class
Age or wear and tear have eroded your speed, power, stamina, punch resistance, etc…

Perhaps carrying an injury.

Not being bothered to train, in my opinion, is not the same thing.

Good post mate. For me prime is when you are performing at your absolute best.

[dempseyfire]

I concur with these but would have Tyson be 1986-1990 (just b/c Buster beat him up doesn't suddenly mean he was out of his prime).

Bingo. No one was saying that before the bout, and had Tyson won, nobody wouldve been saying it after. Thats all you need to know.

You can only make such judgements after a fighter's career has ended.

Tyson looked so far removed from what he did from 1986 - 89, it would not be crazy to suggest that he wasn't in his prime in 1990.

You could turn the argument round & say he was still in his prime in 1991, when he fought Ruddock, despite the fact that he'd stopped moving his head & throwing combinations then.

He didn't look far removed in the 1st round vs Douglas . . he's moving his head . .throwing double jabs . . everyone expected Douglas would be out in a few rounds. But Buster didn't have a china jaw (like Truth) nor was robotic and stationary (like Bruno). But Douglas fought the right fight.

Tyson was doing crazy things outside the ring his whole career . . .there is this myth that when Rooney left Don King's evil demons invaded Mike's soul (aided by the evil temptress Robin Givens) and he suddenly collapsed into a shell of his former self . . . . . . BOLLUCKS! Tyson was being a thug throughout his entire pro career, even when D'Amato was alive (see the incident with Atlas's niece and going back to Brooklyn to mug old ladies). He also had several fights when he became the non-head moving, flat-foot stalker he was vs Douglas and in most of the Ruddock fights . .see the latter rounds vs Tillis, Tucker, or Smith.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I concur with these but would have Tyson be 1986-1990 (just b/c Buster beat him up doesn't suddenly mean he was out of his prime).

Bingo. No one was saying that before the bout, and had Tyson won, nobody wouldve been saying it after. Thats all you need to know.

You can only make such judgements after a fighter's career has ended.

Tyson looked so far removed from what he did from 1986 - 89, it would not be crazy to suggest that he wasn't in his prime in 1990.

You could turn the argument round & say he was still in his prime in 1991, when he fought Ruddock, despite the fact that he'd stopped moving his head & throwing combinations then.

LOL.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Bingo. No one was saying that before the bout, and had Tyson won, nobody wouldve been saying it after. Thats all you need to know.

You can only make such judgements after a fighter's career has ended.

Tyson looked so far removed from what he did from 1986 - 89, it would not be crazy to suggest that he wasn't in his prime in 1990.

You could turn the argument round & say he was still in his prime in 1991, when he fought Ruddock, despite the fact that he'd stopped moving his head & throwing combinations then.

Tyson admits that he stopped training properly after the Spinks fight, add to that he got rid of Kevin Rooney before the Douglas fight.

Double LOL.

[Bricks]

We always talk about different fighters and it's hard to say when they were at their absolute best (not just their best performance), so I thought I would start this thread.

It would be nice for once if the thread didn't turn into the same childish arguement between the same people - I can hope can't I!
Lets start with some mordern heavyweights.

Holyfield.... I'd have to go for late 88-89 Thomas and Dokes. He looked fantastic back then.

Lewis........ Round about the Golota and Briggs fights.

Tyson....... For me it's the Spinks fight, he was still training right and blew away a world class operator.

Bowe........ First Holyfield fight.

Nice sentiment Keith but it's probably gonna be a forlorn one as some people just have an iferiority complex and issues and take them online (naming no names!) lol.

Okay.....

Holyfield.... Is a difficult one to gauge as he did have these times when interwined in his best periods were lesser performances which got the haters saying "look at how he did this and handled that"....a thoroughly exceptional HW right up to the 99 vintage who gave a fresher Lewis hell.... I wouldnt personally pick the 88/89 one who fought Dokes ,Thomas as that Holy seemed to lack the real HW power he acquired later on...than again the Holy who floored Bowe and Mercer, and than Tyson, also struggled with Cyzyz and got ko'd by Bowe....I think the best Holy was the 90-92 one....he beat Foreman,Holmes, but u see what i mean , he also lost to Bowe and couldnt put away an old Holmes in any way approaching the way Tyson had and had life and death at one stage with bert Cooper
Still Im willing to look at the Bowe fight as "well it was close and he did come back and beat him in 93 when he was starting to be past his best, and he did beat Cooper, and Holmes and man the Foreman win was a huge one.....but I can totally see your going with the 88/89 version who was unbeaten and had that amazing workrate...I think the 90-92 one has more dig in his fists , more experience, and is a matured HW.

Lewis........ 2000 for me. He wasnt as quick or as athletic as before but he had mastered his game at this point and could get away with coming in a few pounds heavier than a few years before plus hed passed the holyfield test.

Tyson....... Yep Spinks...
Bowe........ I actually think the Bowe of 95 who had blown away Holyfield and Gonzalez was the best version...as good as he was in Holy1 he wasnt that far removed from the Tubbs debacle in my mind.

[Bricks]

Bingo. No one was saying that before the bout, and had Tyson won, nobody wouldve been saying it after. Thats all you need to know.

You can only make such judgements after a fighter's career has ended.

Tyson looked so far removed from what he did from 1986 - 89, it would not be crazy to suggest that he wasn't in his prime in 1990.

You could turn the argument round & say he was still in his prime in 1991, when he fought Ruddock, despite the fact that he'd stopped moving his head & throwing combinations then.

He didn't look far removed in the 1st round vs Douglas . . he's moving his head . .throwing double jabs . . everyone expected Douglas would be out in a few rounds. But Buster didn't have a china jaw (like Truth) nor was robotic and stationary (like Bruno). But Douglas fought the right fight.

Tyson was doing crazy things outside the ring his whole career . . .there is this myth that when Rooney left Don King's evil demons invaded Mike's soul (aided by the evil temptress Robin Givens) and he suddenly collapsed into a shell of his former self . . . . . . BOLLUCKS! Tyson was being a thug throughout his entire pro career, even when D'Amato was alive (see the incident with Atlas's niece and going back to Brooklyn to mug old ladies). He also had several fights when he became the non-head moving, flat-foot stalker he was vs Douglas and in most of the Ruddock fights . .see the latter rounds vs Tillis, Tucker, or Smith.

Really interesting slant and well put....really good post.

[Ambling Alp]

Not being in your prime to me means…

Not in your best weight class
Age or wear and tear have eroded your speed, power, stamina, punch resistance, etc…

Perhaps carrying an injury.

Not being bothered to train, in my opinion, is not the same thing.

That is pretty much how I see it as well. There are rare exceptions such as a serious injury.
Sometimes a fighter loses to another fighter because he really was past his prime. (or not reached it). However, the past his prime excuse is used way too often. Usually a fighter lost simply because the other guy was better.

(As for weight class, at a certain point a fighter may be out of his weight class. However, most fighters at the lower weight classes fight equally well at 2 or more weight classes.)
If a fighter is still young and has not taken an inordinate amount of punishment, there is usually is not a good ezxcuse to be past your prime.

The real gray area is when you are comparing tow fighters and using a 3rd fighter as a comparison.
for example, say Fighter A lost to fighter B who was near the top of his game. Fighter B for whatever reason (loses focus, gets addicted to drugs whatever,) fights poorly and loses to fighter C. It is unfair in this case to to use the latter fight as evidence that fighter C was better than fighter A.

[Bricks]

nice to see you posting again ambling Alp and i second your view

[Chuck1052]

In regards to Mike Tyson leaving Kevin Rooney, I wonder if that would have happened if Jim Jacobs, Tyson's manager, hadn't passed away.

- Chuck Johnston

[keithmoonhangover]

In regards to Mike Tyson leaving Kevin Rooney, I wonder if that would have happened if Jim Jacobs, Tyson's manager, hadn't passed away.

- Chuck Johnston

That's a question I tend to ask. Tyson looked a lot closer to Jacobs than he was to Cayton. Damn shame about Jacobs dying, I haven't heard a bad word said about him.

[Ambling Alp]

Bowe 1992-1996
Tyson 1988-1993
Holyfield 1988-1993 (a little earlier as a cruiserweight)
Lewis 1992-2000

[BoxBuzz]

Bowe 1992-1996
Tyson 1988-1993
Holyfield 1988-1993 (a little earlier as a cruiserweight)
Lewis 1992-2000

Alp...in 1992....how would you expect the head to head matchups to play out?

I'm probably the only one that imagines that Bowe beats everybody that year.

My guess is that most would claim Tyson would dominate.

I believe Bowe had a time where he actually was the best HW in the world. But had an astronomically (and stunning) short shelf life.

[keithmoonhangover]

Bowe 1992-1996
Tyson 1988-1993
Holyfield 1988-1993 (a little earlier as a cruiserweight)
Lewis 1992-2000

Alp...in 1992....how would you expect the head to head matchups to play out?

I'm probably the only one that imagines that Bowe beats everybody that year.

My guess is that most would claim Tyson would dominate.

I believe Bowe had a time where he actually was the best HW in the world. But had an astronomically (and stunning) short shelf life.

I'm not Alp, so excuse me for cutting in...

Lewis beats Bowe.
Holyfield beats Lewis
Holyfield beats Tyson
Tyson beats Lewis
Bowe beats Holyfield
Tyson beats Bowe

[Goodnight, Irene]

Bowe 1992-1996
Tyson 1988-1993
Holyfield 1988-1993 (a little earlier as a cruiserweight)
Lewis 1992-2000

Alp...in 1992....how would you expect the head to head matchups to play out?

I'm probably the only one that imagines that Bowe beats everybody that year.

My guess is that most would claim Tyson would dominate.

I believe Bowe had a time where he actually was the best HW in the world. But had an astronomically (and stunning) short shelf life.

I'm not Alp, so excuse me for cutting in...

Lewis beats Bowe.
Holyfield beats Lewis
Holyfield beats Tyson
Tyson beats Lewis
Bowe beats Holyfield
Tyson beats Bowe

Not in 1992, he wouldnt (if you're talking peaks, I may agree).

The rest of your picks I nod along to.

[Ambling Alp]

Well Bowe did beat Holyflield in 1992, so that is a given.

Bowe over Tyson
Bowe over Lewis
Holyfield over Tyson
Holyfield over Lewis
Lewis over Tyson

I have Tyson going 0-3, however he certainly had serious chance of winning some.
There are a lot of several close calls here. Bowe may not have run the table either.

This was a window of opportunity for some great fights and we missed out on almost all of them.

[Boilermaker]

We always talk about different fighters and it's hard to say when they were at their absolute best (not just their best performance), so I thought I would start this thread.

It would be nice for once if the thread didn't turn into the same childish arguement between the same people - I can hope can't I!
Lets start with some mordern heavyweights.

Holyfield.... I'd have to go for late 88-89 Thomas and Dokes. He looked fantastic back then.

Lewis........ Round about the Golota and Briggs fights.

Tyson....... For me it's the Spinks fight, he was still training right and blew away a world class operator.

Bowe........ First Holyfield fight.

Nice sentiment Keith but it's probably gonna be a forlorn one as some people just have an iferiority complex and issues and take them online (naming no names!) lol.

Okay.....

Holyfield.... Is a difficult one to gauge as he did have these times when interwined in his best periods were lesser performances which got the haters saying "look at how he did this and handled that"....a thoroughly exceptional HW right up to the 99 vintage who gave a fresher Lewis hell.... I wouldnt personally pick the 88/89 one who fought Dokes ,Thomas as that Holy seemed to lack the real HW power he acquired later on...than again the Holy who floored Bowe and Mercer, and than Tyson, also struggled with Cyzyz and got ko'd by Bowe....I think the best Holy was the 90-92 one....he beat Foreman,Holmes, but u see what i mean , he also lost to Bowe and couldnt put away an old Holmes in any way approaching the way Tyson had and had life and death at one stage with bert Cooper
Still Im willing to look at the Bowe fight as "well it was close and he did come back and beat him in 93 when he was starting to be past his best, and he did beat Cooper, and Holmes and man the Foreman win was a huge one.....but I can totally see your going with the 88/89 version who was unbeaten and had that amazing workrate...I think the 90-92 one has more dig in his fists , more experience, and is a matured HW.

Holyfield is a very interesting case, but do you think there is an argument that the Holyfield who fought Tyson in Holyfield Tyson II was the best version to step inside the ring?

I know Holy was old at this stage, but the first Tyson fight was Holy's big blockbuster fight. With due respect to the Bowe fights that were great fighters, Tyson was always the biggest fight of the era and since most considered the Tyson Douglas fight a fluke, this was the fight that Holyfield always wanted and was mentally always going to be up for. Much like when Tyson fought Spinks, When Corbett fought Sullivan, Dempsey fought Willard, Tunney fought Dempsey etc. Plus, it wasnt really until Holyfield actually beat Tyson in the first fought that mentally he became the greatest fighter in the world. That mental factor can improve fighters tremendously, and i think he looked a lot more dominant and invincible in the second tyson fight than in the first for what short time it ran.