Froch vs martinez at 164

[Marlin Starfish]

I am not a fan of fighters moving around weights unless it's a natural progression upwards.

I think Martinez is hugely over-rated anyway. Macklin and Barker both had success against him until they wore themselves out, and neither of these guys are really elite fighters.

Martinez has been knocked out by Margarito, lost a decision to Paul Williams, and drew with Kermit Cintron.

Pavlik was flat when Martinez beat him, he then scored a wonderful KO of Williams in his rematch before winning three fights against Dzinziruk, Barker and Macklin. P4P no.3 is a bit high in my view.

He is the best fighter in a poor middleweight division. I would like to see him in with one of Abraham, Cotto, Alvarez or Mayweather next.

He is not P4P no.3. He is the lineal middleweight champion.

If Froch could move down safely and beat him he'd get a massive amount of credit. That's why I'm suggesting it.

I also think Martinez is well overrated (as is Canelo) but there's no way Flyod will fight him, Cotto is not a natural middleweight and can Abraham even make the weight safely any more? He's looked horrid and extremely limited for years.

[BoxingAnalyst]

Is that you Flea?

I think Froch could cut to 164, he'd break Maravilla' down with the jab and the looping right hand and stop him in 8 rounds.

Sergio is more realistically about 7 in the P4P rankings IMO.

[johnswan1]

I am not a fan of fighters moving around weights unless it's a natural progression upwards.

I think Martinez is hugely over-rated anyway. Macklin and Barker both had success against him until they wore themselves out, and neither of these guys are really elite fighters.

Martinez has been knocked out by Margarito, lost a decision to Paul Williams, and drew with Kermit Cintron.

Pavlik was flat when Martinez beat him, he then scored a wonderful KO of Williams in his rematch before winning three fights against Dzinziruk, Barker and Macklin. P4P no.3 is a bit high in my view.

He is the best fighter in a poor middleweight division. I would like to see him in with one of Abraham, Cotto, Alvarez or Mayweather next.

He is not P4P no.3. He is the lineal middleweight champion.

If Froch could move down safely and beat him he'd get a massive amount of credit. That's why I'm suggesting it.

I also think Martinez is well overrated (as is Canelo) but there's no way Flyod will fight him, Cotto is not a natural middleweight and can Abraham even make the weight safely any more? He's looked horrid and extremely limited for years.

Cotto and Martinez could fight at Light Middle - where Martinez is a natural.

Abraham is undefeated at Middleweight. 7/8 of his last Middleweight fights finished inside the distance. He was small at Super Middleweight.

The Ring has Martinez P4P no.3 (http://ringtv.craveonline.com/ratings).

ESPN have the same. (http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/id/78 ... rs-nos-1-3).

[Marlin Starfish]

I am not a fan of fighters moving around weights unless it's a natural progression upwards.

I think Martinez is hugely over-rated anyway. Macklin and Barker both had success against him until they wore themselves out, and neither of these guys are really elite fighters.

Martinez has been knocked out by Margarito, lost a decision to Paul Williams, and drew with Kermit Cintron.

Pavlik was flat when Martinez beat him, he then scored a wonderful KO of Williams in his rematch before winning three fights against Dzinziruk, Barker and Macklin. P4P no.3 is a bit high in my view.

He is the best fighter in a poor middleweight division. I would like to see him in with one of Abraham, Cotto, Alvarez or Mayweather next.

He is not P4P no.3. He is the lineal middleweight champion.

If Froch could move down safely and beat him he'd get a massive amount of credit. That's why I'm suggesting it.

I also think Martinez is well overrated (as is Canelo) but there's no way Flyod will fight him, Cotto is not a natural middleweight and can Abraham even make the weight safely any more? He's looked horrid and extremely limited for years.

Cotto and Martinez could fight at Light Middle - where Martinez is a natural.

Abraham is undefeated at Middleweight. 7/8 of his last Middleweight fights finished inside the distance. He was small at Super Middleweight.

The Ring has Martinez P4P no.3 (http://ringtv.craveonline.com/ratings).

ESPN have the same. (http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/id/78 ... rs-nos-1-3).

Nah, Sergio doesn't cut much to make 160. He's a natural middle all the way.

Why you're interested in seeing THE MIDDLEWEIGHT CHAMPION move down in weight I don't know. The titles are poor enough as it is.

[NazNaci1]

A bit of a longshot, this one.

Can't see this match up really. Froch has the Kessler and a possible Bute rematch, on the horizon. Time will tell but I wouldn't hold my breath on this.

Plus 'Maravilla' is looking at the likes (however unlikely) of Chaver Jnr, 'Canelo' and Mayweather as possible future opponents.

[johnswan1]

He is not P4P no.3. He is the lineal middleweight champion.

If Froch could move down safely and beat him he'd get a massive amount of credit. That's why I'm suggesting it.

I also think Martinez is well overrated (as is Canelo) but there's no way Flyod will fight him, Cotto is not a natural middleweight and can Abraham even make the weight safely any more? He's looked horrid and extremely limited for years.

Cotto and Martinez could fight at Light Middle - where Martinez is a natural.

Abraham is undefeated at Middleweight. 7/8 of his last Middleweight fights finished inside the distance. He was small at Super Middleweight.

The Ring has Martinez P4P no.3 (http://ringtv.craveonline.com/ratings).

ESPN have the same. (http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/id/78 ... rs-nos-1-3).

Nah, Sergio doesn't cut much to make 160. He's a natural middle all the way.

Why you're interested in seeing THE MIDDLEWEIGHT CHAMPION move down in weight I don't know. The titles are poor enough as it is.

Martinez began as a Welter and moved from Light Middle to Middle as there was nobody left to fight at Light Middle. Do you even follow careers? I'd imagine it would be easier for Sergio to make Light Middle again than for Froch to make middle. In fact, he has said himself that he can still make Light Middle. Froch has been a career Super Middleweight. Martinez would give a lot away in size and strength above Middleweight.

[IRLangmaid25]

Cotto and Martinez could fight at Light Middle - where Martinez is a natural.

Abraham is undefeated at Middleweight. 7/8 of his last Middleweight fights finished inside the distance. He was small at Super Middleweight.

The Ring has Martinez P4P no.3 (http://ringtv.craveonline.com/ratings).

ESPN have the same. (http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/id/78 ... rs-nos-1-3).

Nah, Sergio doesn't cut much to make 160. He's a natural middle all the way.

Why you're interested in seeing THE MIDDLEWEIGHT CHAMPION move down in weight I don't know. The titles are poor enough as it is.

Martinez began as a Welter and moved from Light Middle to Middle as there was nobody left to fight at Light Middle. Do you even follow careers? I'd imagine it would be easier for Sergio to make Light Middle again than for Froch to make middle. In fact, he has said himself that he can still make Light Middle. Froch has been a career Super Middleweight. Martinez would give a lot away in size and strength above Middleweight.

With Williams in hospital after his terrible accident. Any takers on Martinez v Alvarez?

[Marlin Starfish]

Cotto and Martinez could fight at Light Middle - where Martinez is a natural.

Abraham is undefeated at Middleweight. 7/8 of his last Middleweight fights finished inside the distance. He was small at Super Middleweight.

The Ring has Martinez P4P no.3 (http://ringtv.craveonline.com/ratings).

ESPN have the same. (http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/id/78 ... rs-nos-1-3).

Nah, Sergio doesn't cut much to make 160. He's a natural middle all the way.

Why you're interested in seeing THE MIDDLEWEIGHT CHAMPION move down in weight I don't know. The titles are poor enough as it is.

Martinez began as a Welter and moved from Light Middle to Middle as there was nobody left to fight at Light Middle. Do you even follow careers? I'd imagine it would be easier for Sergio to make Light Middle again than for Froch to make middle. In fact, he has said himself that he can still make Light Middle. Froch has been a career Super Middleweight. Martinez would give a lot away in size and strength above Middleweight.

I want Froch to cut the extra weight, not want Sergio to move up, don't you follow posts?

Martinez weighs in, on fight night, around 168. He cuts to make 154. That is NOT a 'natural' fighting weight. That is a weight he can make.

He was an athlete straight out of football when he was a welter, and has grown into his body.

I'll be sure to pull you up for your schnidey remarks in the future.

[Marlin Starfish]

Is that you Flea?

I think Froch could cut to 164, he'd break Maravilla' down with the jab and the looping right hand and stop him in 8 rounds.

Sergio is more realistically about 7 in the P4P rankings IMO.

I dunno' what you're talking about

Apparently I don't 'follow boxing'

[johnswan1]

Nah, Sergio doesn't cut much to make 160. He's a natural middle all the way.

Why you're interested in seeing THE MIDDLEWEIGHT CHAMPION move down in weight I don't know. The titles are poor enough as it is.

Martinez began as a Welter and moved from Light Middle to Middle as there was nobody left to fight at Light Middle. Do you even follow careers? I'd imagine it would be easier for Sergio to make Light Middle again than for Froch to make middle. In fact, he has said himself that he can still make Light Middle. Froch has been a career Super Middleweight. Martinez would give a lot away in size and strength above Middleweight.

I want Froch to cut the extra weight, not want Sergio to move up, don't you follow posts?

Martinez weighs in, on fight night, around 168. He cuts to make 154. That is NOT a 'natural' fighting weight. That is a weight he can make.

He was an athlete straight out of football when he was a welter, and has grown into his body.

I'll be sure to pull you up for your schnidey remarks in the future.

Martinez was 165 lbs against Barker on fight night. Even weighing in at 154 lbs, to come in at 165 lbs on fight night is not a huge increase. I'm not getting your point about natural fighting weights. Even at some sort of catchweight Froch would be much bigger than Martinez on fight night. Froch and Bute were allowed to weigh in on the day of their fight up to 10 lbs heavier than the weigh in and it's possible either of them may have hydrated more even after that. Bottom line is that Martinez is a small middleweight and Carl is a career super middleweight. There are plenty of fights for Carl at Super Middleweight and above, and plenty of fights for Martinez at Light Middle and Middle (i.e. Mayweather, Margarito, Cotto, Alvarez, Abraham, Chavez, Lee, Sturm).

[Marlin Starfish]

By your criteria Chavez Jr, probably bigger on fight night than Froch, would NOT be a reasonable challenger to Chavez's throne?

As per 'natural weight', most guys cut big time nowadays so I was referring to the guys who fight at the weight they pretty much walk around at. Sergio, Floyd, Manny, Froch are good examples IMO.

Broner, Chavez Jr, Alvarez, Bute, Rios the opposite.

All I'm saying is that Froch should jump on the weight cutting bandwagon and get the advantage for once. Dirrell cuts from Cruiser, Johnson a very natural 175-180lb guy, Bute bigger. My hypothesis was 'if he can do it safely why not have a go?' If he can stay around 168 (he doesn't live his life a weight drained corpse) then surely it's feasible he could cut 8lbs, take the belt from Martinez, and then fight the rest of the weight cutters squeezing in at the 160lb limit, Pirog, Chavez and Sturm (who has looked more and more dry in recent years)?

I don't really care for what is fair to Martinez, he holds the lofty ranking of being the no.1 middleweight in the world. As much as I don't like it, the rules say that anyone that can hit the limit 24-36 hours before the first bell can fight for it. As a Froch fan, to finally reach the absolute pinnacle of a division would be great for me and great for him.

Was just an idea, not deal breaker. Froch likely would be much bigger. And? If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

Again, this whole thing was based on the hypothetical that Froch can make the cut without sacrificing what makes him the fighter he is. If he's drained and a lesser warrior, then I'm not interested really and would rather see him stick to super middle.

Knowing Frochy, he'll want to be 'the man'. As an objective observer, I don't that's going to happen with Ward at 168 and 'Sad' Chad at 175 (though Dawson does posses some stylistic fallacies that Froch could capitalise on, however the door swings both ways there) the only route for Frochy to achieve that would be to move down in weight.

[Marlin Starfish]

Cotto and Martinez could fight at Light Middle - where Martinez is a natural.

Abraham is undefeated at Middleweight. 7/8 of his last Middleweight fights finished inside the distance. He was small at Super Middleweight.

The Ring has Martinez P4P no.3 (http://ringtv.craveonline.com/ratings).

ESPN have the same. (http://espn.go.com/boxing/story/_/id/78 ... rs-nos-1-3).

Nah, Sergio doesn't cut much to make 160. He's a natural middle all the way.

Why you're interested in seeing THE MIDDLEWEIGHT CHAMPION move down in weight I don't know. The titles are poor enough as it is.

Martinez began as a Welter and moved from Light Middle to Middle as there was nobody left to fight at Light Middle. Do you even follow careers? I'd imagine it would be easier for Sergio to make Light Middle again than for Froch to make middle. In fact, he has said himself that he can still make Light Middle. Froch has been a career Super Middleweight. Martinez would give a lot away in size and strength above Middleweight.

Also, Martinez didn't move to middleweight 'because there was no one left to fight'. He got the chance to fill-in for Pavlik against Williams at short notice, and the opportunity to fight Pavlik for the title based on that performance and the fact Pavlik wanted nothing to do with P-Dub.

Subsequent results have kept him there.

As for Abraham's weight, agree that he's a tank at middle. Fact I'd that in an era of same day weigh in's he'd be a small light heavyweight with a big whack but would get nowhere in the grand scheme of things.

Boxing doesn't owe Abraham success. 24 hour weigh in's allow him to make more of himself.

You obviously follow boxing, you'll know of Abraham's pain at making the weight during stages of his IBF 'reign' (paper champ of course) and the numerous lethargic performances he put in.