Larry O: a quick response

[mickey1975]

Larry was a sprinter in the 100 meters was he not? Steroids are rife in that sport, so why anyone is surprised (just by looking at him, you know he hasn't got to that physique by eating chicken breasts and protein shakes - wake up.) that when he became a heavyweight boxer, he would stop is beyond me.

Did steroids give him faster hands, more KO power? The facts are he was found wanting at domestic level against fighters who haven't taken steroids. (McDermott and The Shrek guy whos name I cannot remember) Means that he would have probably beaten Ferguson and the other guys he beat without the drugs.

He should be punished - however 4 years is too long. What a load of bollocks - boxing in the UK has far more pressing concerns - like the amount of one sided fights that are being made up and down the country - thats a bigger disgrace in my opinion.

I posted on this a while ago. I cant believe more people are not looking more at his Athletics background than British Boxing.

[Wales]

i felt i owed to the forum to say a few words when it wasnt busy as i dont wanna argue with anyone or create any bad feelings. yes i had been doping for 6 years but for most of u guys to think my opponents were not because of their physiques is quite ridiculous. i know for a fact that 3 guys i fought as a pro were on stuff although i will not mention any names and the majority of the boxers u all love so dear are on stuff, fact and this is from me talking to them, seeing them buy stuff or talking to their training personnel. Cheating is when u are the only prson doing something and since i know that i wasnt the only person doing it, it cant be defined as cheating. a large minority if not majority of boxers are doping and the naivity of the public to think that mine is an isolated case is staggering. Also i am so surprised that i get so much stick but the guys i look up to in the sport like roy jones, shane moseley and james toney who have all been caught dont get as much stick. Also lets not forget the holyfield incident with evan fields story, vargas and even mayweather using banned painkillers. if u hate me for doping fine, but then be prepared to hate all ur fav boxers and indeed athletes.
I appreciate the support I got from this forum and thats why i am coming on here and telling u this. Also i will not hide away as that is not my style and i will be back in boxing when the ban ends like it or not. Walk a mile in my shoes b4 u judge me.

If i put my hand in a fire, would you?

[curtis wood]

kells i know what your saying but if a journeyman turns up at 24 hours notice against a hot prospect he knows will give him a good going over he has a choice to make if he accepts the fight or not, he knows what the deal is so its up to him, thats not the case when people are taking drugs unbeknown to anybody else

[LeedsLad]

Why not just ban them for life if they get caught?

That's the best deterrent available. Either play by the rules or get a day job. Simples!

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

Larry was a sprinter in the 100 meters was he not? Steroids are rife in that sport, so why anyone is surprised (just by looking at him, you know he hasn't got to that physique by eating chicken breasts and protein shakes - wake up.) that when he became a heavyweight boxer, he would stop is beyond me.

Did steroids give him faster hands, more KO power? The facts are he was found wanting at domestic level against fighters who haven't taken steroids. (McDermott and The Shrek guy whos name I cannot remember) Means that he would have probably beaten Ferguson and the other guys he beat without the drugs.

He should be punished - however 4 years is too long. What a load of bollocks - boxing in the UK has far more pressing concerns - like the amount of one sided fights that are being made up and down the country - thats a bigger disgrace in my opinion.

I posted on this a while ago. I cant believe more people are not looking more at his Athletics background than British Boxing.

Ahtletics is rife with steroids which was Larry's first sporting port of call. If I remember he was a decent sprinter at around the 10 and a half second mark. For a big lump like him, that is some trucking!

Does he really think to himself 'OK, I fancy the idea of being a heavyweight boxer, I'll lay off those steroids now'

[Counter-puncher]

Does he really think to himself 'OK, I fancy the idea of being a heavyweight boxer, I'll lay off those steroids now'

[kells]

They have no choice but to take the fights as ther the only work they get offered I'm sure if u asked them they wud love a 50/50 fair fight

[oliverfennell]

Larry`s point about double standards is very valid.

Why was Mosely not banned for 4 years?

Wasn't Mosley - and the other examples he cites (Jones, Toney et al) - only caught using ONE substance? I think with Larry it's the sheer scale, amount and timeframe of the offences that is so shocking.

Furthermore, I would err on the side of the punishments meted out to those guys being too lenient rather than Larry's being too harsh. One of the main contributing factors to PED use in boxing is the lack of strong deterrent. For example, Toney was suspended for three months for his first offence! And that's a guy who only fights once or twice a year anyway. If the governors of our sport start handing out bans more along the lines of Larry's, it will do a lot to clean up the sport IMO. As it is, the penalties for usage fall way short of the gains. Hopefully Larry's case is the catalyst for harsher punishments elsewhere. Even if the incidence rate of testing doesn't increase (bearing in mind the costs and practicalities), just knowing there is the possibility - even a remote one - of harsh punishments for positive tests should deter a lot of would-be users.

[oliverfennell]

3.) His record has been completely wiped. Not necessarily a bad thing, considering his limits had been exposed for all to see.

His record is still up here. As for completely wiping it, surely his losses should remain because it would be unfair for Peret, McDermott and Sexton to have 1 deducted from their W columns.

[allahsnackbar]

Wasn't Mosley - and the other examples he cites (Jones, Toney et al) - only caught using ONE substance? I think with Larry it's the sheer scale, amount and timeframe of the offences that is so shocking.

Furthermore, I would err on the side of the punishments meted out to those guys being too lenient rather than Larry's being too harsh.

Fantastic points.

[jonp]

I dont see why people keep bringing up Toney and mosely none of these were judged by the BBBof C the other one i know about Michel Banbula got a two year ban and i should imagine his wasnt quite as extensive as Larry Os .

If there are cases where the board didnt punish the licence holders as serevly fair comment but its no good bringing up examples of american fighters not getting punished by our board.

+1

Jon I am sure like many other trainers you take offence at the claim that the majority of boxers are fighting under the influence of illegal substances, what is your take on the claim buddy?

I havnt commented because i think its such a load of tripe.

I beleive there may be problems albeit a lot smaller than whats said and i have seen a few instances of dodgy behaviour but i see an awful lot of boxers and to claim that the majoirty of those are using PEDS is just a backlash at being caught himself.

I know how hard it is to get and 6 round fighters to eat correctly or do weight correctly to further there chances of winning .So to say the majority of these guys are spending maybe 200 quid a month on PEDS and arefully following whatever rules it is to take them and make them work its just ridiculous.

Every title fight is tested every single one very thouroughly and these are the guys who would be making the effort because an advantage to them will give them bigger rewards and and bigger fights dont you think if 70 or 80 percent were using at least a few more would have been caught.

and wile a boxer may make the mistake of being overly ambitious and cheating do you not think a trainer will see this?? and if you think some of the trainers out there brendan ingle ,Bryan hughes, jim evans to name but a few would sully there long attained reputations then I just think it makes it sound even more stupid.

Being a trainer in boxing is a long job and anyone daft enough to ruin a reputation in a job that can last 50 years for a fighter who probly wont be there for a tenth of that doesnt really deserve to be a trainer.

My take on this if they want to cheat if they get caught just ban them from boxing let them do wrestling or something.People would have to be stupid or desperate to cheat then and take a stand dont let The USAs quite easy time on drug cheats fool our boxers tell them just because mosely and whoever else gets away with it over there ,Over here you will be banned no strikes no chances banned. Then if anyone cheats on there own head be it.

Lol this is why i didnt comment rant over,

[oliverfennell]

To be honest I think the main page headline describing Larry as "disgraced" is pretty pathetic. Just how much of a "drug cheat" he is is open to interpretation , but again to call him "disgraced" as if he was some kind of expenses cheating MP or some kind of teacher caught dating a student, is just over the top sanctimonious crap.

This is the HW boxing division we are talking about!!!!

Your judgement on this is compromised though by the fact he is a friend of yours.

Lads!! and im talking to leftysreturn and palooka, respectfully who told you guys i am friends with warmachine....Ive never met or spoken to him and only saw a handful of his fights......i have only ever commented in one thread previously by warmachine........I just know when something stinks....and the whole scapegoating of Larry O is an utter disgrace and the way the forum has turned on him is terrible...a 4 year ban while the rest of the dirty business goes scott free....well....no wonder so many are turning away from the sport.

So the logic is that because x-amount of people are getting away with x-offence, nobody should be punished for anything else?

[oliverfennell]

Anyone who can't see this 4 year ban is sickeningly extreme and disproportionate is primitive in their thinking.

Sickeningly extreme and disproportionate?? Only if judged by the sickeningly lenient punishments of the past.

Surely what we all do agree on is that there would be no PED use at all in boxing in a perfect world. "Extreme" bans are therefore much more likely to achieve such an environment than lenient ones, are they not?

[oliverfennell]

Anyone who can't see this 4 year ban is sickeningly extreme and disproportionate is primitive in their thinking.

Taking the fact that Larry, on being caught, subsequently admitted to using banned substances, over a duration spanning a time-frame that incorporated every single amateur and professional fight he has participated, into consideration, what do you think would have been an appropriate punishment?

Quite. As I stated earlier, the punishments handed to those other boxers were lenient, and if we use the example of Toney's first offence - a three-month ban for one positive test for one substance - as a measuring stick, and Larry's admitted to using for every match of his career, if you multiplied every fight by three months and then multiplied that number by 13 (for the amount of substances) then you get a 507-month ban (over 40 years) if you don't even take into consideration amateur matches or increasing weight of punishment for repeat offences.

Of course Toney was done twice, and it's probably naive to imagine those two incidences were the sole two times in his life he's used PEDs, but as it stands those are the only times he's been caught. If Larry is using people like Toney as a measuring stick for appropriate punishments, and has admitted himself to career-long usage, then he's sealing his own fate.

[ArtOfWar]

Another take on this is legal supplements. Now we don't know who is and isn't taking steroids, but I think we can all agree that every athlete out there takes supplements. Now the problem with that is you don't know what is going in them most of the time either. A little bit of reading will tell you that supplement companies dump shit in their products all the time. So much so that a damn pharmacist would have a hard time keeping up with it.

I mean by all accounts the drug Andre Berto got busted for is one of the most easy steroids to get caught using. With that being said is it not possible that one of the supplements he was taking had this element in it?

Then you've got things like pro hormones. Pro hormones can be bought legally and that shit is even more toxic than steroids a lot of the time. When a pro hormone does get banned you'll get a compnay changing the chemical elements and bringing out something else.

People have this idea that steroids is about sticking some needle in your arse in the bathroom. In fact a lot of steroids and basically all pro hormones come in pill form. I just think we've got a lot of athlete's who are willing to ingest things to get an edge. Some are consciously cheating, but a lot just don't have the knowledge to distinguish legal and banned substances. And even the few that do can't account for crap that gets thrown into products that isn't acknowledged.

[oliverfennell]

Another take on this is legal supplements. Now we don't know who is and isn't taking steroids, but I think we can all agree that every athlete out there takes supplements. Now the problem with that is you don't know what is going in them most of the time either. A little bit of reading will tell you that supplement companies dump shit in their products all the time. So much so that a damn pharmacist would have a hard time keeping up with it.

I mean by all accounts the drug Andre Berto got busted for is one of the most easy steroids to get caught using. With that being said is it not possible that one of the supplements he was taking had this element in it?

Then you've got things like pro hormones. Pro hormones can be bought legally and that shit is even more toxic than steroids a lot of the time. When a pro hormone does get banned you'll get a compnay changing the chemical elements and bringing out something else.

People have this idea that steroids is about sticking some needle in your arse in the bathroom. In fact a lot of steroids and basically all pro hormones come in pill form. I just think we've got a lot of athlete's who are willing to ingest things to get an edge. Some are consciously cheating, but a lot just don't have the knowledge to distinguish legal and banned substances. And even the few that do can't account for crap that gets thrown into products that isn't acknowledged.

Well, "it was in one of my supplements/prescriptions" is the standard retort by pretty much anyone ever who failed a test, but Larry's admitted he did it all intentionally, so it's a moot point in his case.

[Adamj1987]

my quick thought. larry did wrong he got punished i hope he sticks to it and not goes lux or ebf route whilst banned.

it seems like you have to presume a boxer is juicing in someone until proved they arnt

[Jeff Thomas]

Re records being wiped do the board even keep records

[oliverfennell]

Re records being wiped do the board even keep records

I'm sure they do, as there used to be the British Boxing Board of Control Yearbook, remember?

On another note, a bit mad that Boxrec is still refusing to list a legally licensed promotion in Haye-Chisora but Larry's 10 wins are still up there.

[Coco]

Re records being wiped do the board even keep records

I'm sure they do, as there used to be the British Boxing Board of Control Yearbook, remember?

On another note, a bit mad that Boxrec is still refusing to list a legally licensed promotion in Haye-Chisora but Larry's 10 wins are still up there.

Box rec don't list any EBF bouts.
Also Larry had a BBBoC licence when he took part in all of his bouts

[whicker]

I guess the Luxembourg board would license Larry now, expect him on the Upton Park show

Doesn't it count as an actual ban from boxing tho? Otherwise there would be a load of guys though history who got a steroid ban and went and fought abroad under a foreign licence.

I imagine it counts as a ban in the same way as Chisora's.
There is also nothing to stop him fighting on EBF shows. He just won't be allowed to fight on BBBoC licensed shows a la Upton Park

Exactly- a "ban" is only as effective as the organisation who issues it.

Given that two people having a boxing match against each other is perfectly legal, then it's hard to globally regualte it.

[ArtOfWar]

Another take on this is legal supplements. Now we don't know who is and isn't taking steroids, but I think we can all agree that every athlete out there takes supplements. Now the problem with that is you don't know what is going in them most of the time either. A little bit of reading will tell you that supplement companies dump shit in their products all the time. So much so that a damn pharmacist would have a hard time keeping up with it.

I mean by all accounts the drug Andre Berto got busted for is one of the most easy steroids to get caught using. With that being said is it not possible that one of the supplements he was taking had this element in it?

Then you've got things like pro hormones. Pro hormones can be bought legally and that shit is even more toxic than steroids a lot of the time. When a pro hormone does get banned you'll get a compnay changing the chemical elements and bringing out something else.

People have this idea that steroids is about sticking some needle in your arse in the bathroom. In fact a lot of steroids and basically all pro hormones come in pill form. I just think we've got a lot of athlete's who are willing to ingest things to get an edge. Some are consciously cheating, but a lot just don't have the knowledge to distinguish legal and banned substances. And even the few that do can't account for crap that gets thrown into products that isn't acknowledged.

Well, "it was in one of my supplements/prescriptions" is the standard retort by pretty much anyone ever who failed a test, but Larry's admitted he did it all intentionally, so it's a moot point in his case.

Yes of course. That's the other side of the argument, and it's almost impossable to prove who's lying and who isn't. It's a crazy situation.

[oliverfennell]

Re records being wiped do the board even keep records

I'm sure they do, as there used to be the British Boxing Board of Control Yearbook, remember?

On another note, a bit mad that Boxrec is still refusing to list a legally licensed promotion in Haye-Chisora but Larry's 10 wins are still up there.

Box rec don't list any EBF bouts.
Also Larry had a BBBoC licence when he took part in all of his bouts

Haye-Chisora isn't an EBF bout. It's an odd situation in that a foreign country is sanctioning elsewhere, but it is a legit, legal and recognised sanctioning country nevertheless.

As for Larry, if it is the Board themselves who will "wipe" Larry's record then BoxRec will have to follow suit. It would make his matches NCs, I presume. But as I have stated elsewhere, his losses should not be wiped because that would be unfair on the guys who beat him to have 1 taken off their W ledger.

[dondada]

Haye-Chisora isn't an EBF bout. It's an odd situation in that a foreign country is sanctioning elsewhere, but it is a legit, legal and recognised sanctioning country nevertheless.

I believe the results will be listed, probably as 'unsanctioned' but it isn't going in the schedule.

I don't know but this is my take - the difference re this situation is that the foreign board are 'sanctioning' a fight against the wishes of the domestic governing body whereas on other occasions, that has not been the case. The legitimacy of the LBF - as repeatedly outlined by those involved in the promotion - was initially that it was a member of the EBU.

The EBU doesn't approve of their actions and has said they're going to expel them if they go ahead. Unsurprisingly, the EBU link is now no longer talked about.

Perhaps the website doesn't want to give credence to something that might undermine the authority of the BBBoC.

Just because the WBO and WBA are involved doesn't make it 'legit'. And the EBF, etc. is just as 'legal'.

Just my take on it.

[J]

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