Some Thoughts On Chavez v Taylor I

[Goodnight, Irene]

I can live with someone saying Steele was in King's pocket. Thats plausible.

I cant live with someone saying its unreasonable to stop a bout with a certain amount of time left. Thats retarded.

Pure emotion talking.

Some very good boxing people have agree that the fight was stopped prematurely. Imo the fact that Steele waved the fight off too soon is what gets a lot of people, not just the time left on the clock. Anyways referees are only human, you think they haven't given fighters the benefit of the doubt in cases where they were hurt/knocked down and there was eff all time left on the clock?

"Too soon."

Take a look on the post-script on Taylor's career.

I bet there are plenty of refs who took time remaining into account in not stopping a bout they would have earlier...but not one of them can hold their heads high for a job well done.

[Ambling Alp]

The easiest thing Taylor had to do in 12 rds was to say "I'm OK" and he didn't.

I am not sure that Taylor ever heard Steele talking to him. Taylor was distracted at Duva going hysterical in his corner and was not paying attention to Steele.
Steele should have gotton right in front of him to make sure he had his attention.
As mentioned Steele has let fights go on whereit has been much more obvious that he should stop it.

Even if Taylor said he ok, that is no guaranteee that the referee would have let it continue. There have been times when a ref asked the fighter if he was ok, the fighter claimed he was ok but the ref stopped it anyway.
Probably the most famous example is Lewis-McCall where the ref asked Lewis if he wanted to continue; Lewis did but the ref stopped it anyway.

I do agree that the time can't be a factor. First of all, in the heat of the moment the ref didn't know if there was 1 or 5 seconds left. An opponent can land several punches in a few seconds if he gets the chance.

[Seamus]

After watching the ending several more times, two more issues come to mind. First, I don't buy the Duva distraction because Steele was in Taylor's face asking him if he was ok or wanted to continue, and second, I've never thought of this before, but I think it's now possible, considering the damage Taylor suffered in the bout, that Meldrick may have looked pretty horrific from where Steele was standing and he decided immediately, that stopping the fight was the only logical choice.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Taylor got screwed. Even if you think he didn't, rationalizing facial damage as a reason a referee stops a fight with seconds left is priceless. Of course, if he decided that immediately what was the count for?

[Goodnight, Irene]

I just want to know one thing --- since its unfair to stop a fight with a few seconds left, at which point should Chavez throw his hands up and stop trying for the KO?

Its a sincere question (no one is ever comfortable answering). Should Chavez stop trying with, say...ten seconds left? Twenty? Maybe this should apply to all sports? No more last-second plays in football? Hands up who thinks that makes sense?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Never, Chavez didn't do anything wrong at all. He dropped Taylor and Meldrick got up. A valiant rally that should have come up just short.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Never, Chavez didn't do anything wrong at all. He dropped Taylor and Meldrick got up. A valiant rally that should have come up just short.

If there is inded a point, though, where you wont entertain the idea of stopping a bout because theres X amount of time left, at which point is Chavez fighting with the handicap of not being able to secure a ref's stoppage?

Does that disadvantage kick in with ten seconds to go? Twenty? Thirty?

You cannot, in good conscience, let the clock run out on a fight you would stop at any other time. That is unfairly penalising Chavez. He is entitled to have his work considered by the ref right to the last second. If someone wants to accuse Steele of corruption, hell, theyre probably right --- but the idea that its morally wrong to stop a bout with a few seconds left is just bankrupt thinking.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I asked you a question that was never answered. Were you angry that they didn't stop Vazquez/Marquez 3 in the closing seconds? He was in much worse shape than Taylor. If you think that fight should have been stopped, fair play. I was glad that it wasn't.

I've always said that Steele was on King's payroll, but to act like round 1 and round twelve are the same is just plain silly. He knew where the clock was, and nobody, in good conscience should stop a fight that is already over.

We will never agree on this.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Happy? Certainly not...but would I have called it poor officiating?

No, Sir. The last second of the final round is identical to any other moment. Thats fairness. Anything else...flat cheating, IMO.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

So you have no dead set standards of your own for when a fight should be stopped? Why do you expect that from everyone else?

The timing of the round is crucial to the evaluation. Anybody who says otherwise is just searching for an excuse.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Im saying if you would stop a fight in the middle of round six based on how bad a condition you think a man is, but would let it go on if there were, say, ten seconds left in round twelve, then you have cheated the attacking fighter out of a TKO he has fairly earned.

The clock has no part in a fair referees mind, IMO. None.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Everyone on the site is quite aware of your opinion on this. Mine too for that matter.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

As bad as Referees are, I'm just glad they don't play by your rules. Guys like Saad & Holyfield would have been stopped in several of their wins if they were treated like they were Brian Minto.

[Goodnight, Irene]

At which point is Chavez no longer eligible to secure a TKO? And this only applies if the fighter is way behind, right? You can always score a TKO if you're in front, but if you're well behind, you need a straight KO, with...how much time left?

[yancey]

If the situations of the two fighters are reversed in this fight, I assume everyone sees it being stopped on Chavez in the exact same manner.

Right?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Im saying if you would stop a fight in the middle of round six based on how bad a condition you think a man is, but would let it go on if there were, say, ten seconds left in round twelve, then you have cheated the attacking fighter out of a TKO he has fairly earned.

The clock has no part in a fair referees mind, IMO. None.

Then if you're consistent a referee shouldn't give Matthew Saad Muhammad any benefit of the doubt that he wouldn't give Mike Mollo. The time of the fight doesn't matter, the recuperative powers of a fighter shouldn't matter either.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

At which point is Chavez no longer eligible to secure a TKO? And this only applies if the fighter is way behind, right? You can always score a TKO if you're in front, but if you're well behind, you need a straight KO, with...how much time left?

I would cut it off when he no longer has a chance to land a punch. And yes, the way the fight has transpired most certainly matters. I wouldn't have stopped the fight there if there was a minute left in the round, but with two seconds left it was unconscionable.

[Seamus]

Wouldn't matter if it was Chuvalo, Hagler, or Chavez himself. If he doesn't answer, the referee has every right to stop the fight.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Wouldn't matter if it was Chuvalo, Hagler, or Chavez himself. If he doesn't answer, the referee has every right to stop the fight.

It definitely would have mattered if it was Chavez, Steele wouldn't have considered stopping it.

[Seamus]

We'll never know what Steele would have done had it been Chavez, but it's rather pointless to speculate since it was Meldrick Taylor who was so dazed after the 11th rd, that he didn't know which corner to go to. It was Meldrick Taylor's face that was beaten to a pulp (imagine how it looked from where Steele was ?) and it was Meldrick Taylor who held on to the ropes through the count.

[yancey]

Wouldn't matter if it was Chuvalo, Hagler, or Chavez himself. If he doesn't answer, the referee has every right to stop the fight.

It definitely would have mattered if it was Chavez, Steele wouldn't have considered stopping it.

Correct.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

We'll never know what Steele would have done had it been Chavez, but it's rather pointless to speculate since it was Meldrick Taylor who was so dazed after the 11th rd, that he didn't know which corner to go to. It was Meldrick Taylor's face that was beaten to a pulp (imagine how it looked from where Steele was ?) and it was Meldrick Taylor who held on to the ropes through the count.

You're the one that brought the speculation into play and I absolutely know he wouldn't have screwed Chavez like that. The facial damage again?

[Goodnight, Irene]

Wouldn't matter if it was Chuvalo, Hagler, or Chavez himself. If he doesn't answer, the referee has every right to stop the fight.

Bingo.

Though credit to Saad for actually committing to a cut-off point, which no one ever does. I still say if you cant score a TKO during every available second of a fight, something is wrong with the sport.

May as well do away with last-minute plays from a football side behind, too.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I'd quit using that analogy, no Football games are stopped.

[Goodnight, Irene]

The teams are always allowed to play to the last second though, arent they?

I cant see why any sport in the world should be treated differently.