Poorly attended shows?

[Jeff Thomas]

Let's lay it on the table! There are no tv dates.... There is no longer the requirement for fighters to built shitty unbeaten records. Fans are wiser, journeyman unfortunately for them will cease to be as required. We can start having a competitive sport again. This is a chance for boxing to move away from the mess created by the stupid requirement for inflated paper mâché records.


But show attenendence is sparse at best, for shows to go on what needs to change? What ideas would you suggest to get bums in seats....

The attendance at the Olympia last night was shocking. As it was at kelvin hall the other night.

[tijuana1]

Jeff I boxed at the Olympia last night and yes poor attendance but good show boxing wise. How I would love the sport to develope would be as : let the journey-men fight each other and let the prospects fight each other. If you are the real deal you will come through every test as in every fighter put in front of you prospect after prospect. Imagine reading a recored of 10 fight 10 wins and you beaten everyone with a winning record. That would be a good fighter to promote. Just my opinion how the sport can develope better than it is today. I know you have to build fighters / ticket sellers I have been in the game years but is it time for a change for the sport to survive / improve ?

[Emmseegee]

I thought the attendance at the Kelvin hall was decent but....
Using that particular venue as an example, one of the main things that cause poor attendances is the fact that alcohol can't be bought in the venue and very few pubs near the venue. I can understand the reasons why alcohol isn't available at venues but there's no point in pretending that it isn't a major factor towards some poor attendances.
Boxing is a far more entertaining sport than Darts (is darts even a sport?) but the darts sells out all over the UK due to the fact its basically an all day party!

The amount of spectators in a venue at any given time during a show varies depending on the popularity of the fighter who is on, if 100 people go to support their local lad on the undercard then i can guarantee that at least 80 of them will watch the one fight they want to see and probably the main event but will spend the rest of the night at the nearest beer tap.

The only times i have managed to convince my mates to go to any shows has been when its a big fight, Burns, hatton as examples and each time they have all paid £40-£50 and watched ONLY the main fight. Mostly they are football fans who aren't interested in undercard fights. What most people are interested in is getting pished....... simple as that.

The sad thing is that if there was more readily available alcohol then it would mean bigger crowds and better atmospheres.

[Wales]

Some of the afternoon leisure centre shows i used to attend were 35quid per cheapest ticket. Which is borderline expensive, especially when you add in beer, transport etc... Its a damned shame because the cage fighting shows round here are very very popular. I guess the small hall shows depend a lot on fighters selling their own tickets rather than general sale?

[wrimc]

Great thread and its a subject that really interests me. What sort of attendance was there at the Kelvin didn't seem too bad on the tv? I was on twitter today and Steve Wood was bemoaning the poor attendance at the Olympia last night. I spoke to him on twitter and said I'm the type of fight fan that he should be attracting hardcore fan though I dont personally know any of the boxers on the show. It seems to me the only real way of getting a ticket. I also commented that I didnt really know too much about the show until it was too late and I had made other plans.

Wood replied and explained that it had been on local radio and in the Echo and also on social media. I offered to volunteer to help the promotion next time he promotes in Liverpool and received no reply.

I feel that promoters are a bit complacent. Essentially they are expecting to fill a hall with friends and family of boxers. Yes that needs to be done but there are plenty of fight fans in Liverpool who are willing to come out for a good scrap. With all respect to Harkin and Newman £30 for that one competitive fight + 6 prospect v journeymen doesnt cut it. There needs to be 3 fights of that level consistently ever month or so. Build a brand that will make people come back knowing that when they go to a VIP/Vaughan promotion there will be a good night of fights. 4 well matched is better than 8 prospects v journymen and a competitive fight.

I dont blame only the promoters boxers and managers need to take their share. Unwillingness to fight other prospects and protection and overvaluing themselves seems to be a problem currently in the sport. It shouldnt be that they need to sell 100 tickets to get on a show it should be they need to be prepared to fight another unbeaten prospect. The problem is the "0" and ticket selling culture just perpetuates everybody aversion to risk at this level. Ive offered my services for free to help in the past be it as a street team or in just the behind the scenes running of the show and have been knocked back by a number of different promoters.

If they are so assured they couldnt do with a volunteers help such as mine to help sell the shows free of charge somebody who is passionate about the sport and who wants to do well. How will they ever improve attendances unless they are prepared to change?

[smoggy7188]

When I go to a show I look for value for money. That either means a top quality main event with atleast one half decent undercard fight or a stacked undercard with a half decent main event. Unfortunately the VIP show at the weekend from what ive seen doesnt seem to have had either which is surprising seeing as VIP are usually very good small hall shows. Even if a stacked undercard has alot of home fighters fighting journeyman you have a better chance of atleast 2 or 3 turning into a right scraps if you have a high number of fights on a bill.

I do think a lack of tv could be good for small hall shows cos alot of tv fighters in the past will start fighting on them to keep busy such as Chris Edwards the other night and Gary Buckland in a few weeks while they wait inevitably to get on a allegedly or channel 5 show.

I was surprised to see Kelvin Hall so empty the other night, you had a top quality top of the bill fight, the return of harrison and several good prospects. I think the worst attended tv bill ive seen lately was the allegedly bill in wales when selby was fighting, that was empty.

[sgtcecil]

Disagree with the Kelvin Hall show being poorly attended - one of the tiers was full and the other maybe had 100-150 seats at the back vacant. Could have had more floor seats in but there must have been at the very least 1600 -1800 there considering the capacity is 2500.

[The Insider]

Even if a stacked undercard has alot of home fighters fighting journeyman you have a better chance of atleast 2 or 3 turning into a right scraps if you have a high number of fights on a bill.

Get yourself down Mickey Helliots show (elephant and castle) Friday. He's bound to have a couple of good ones out of the 17 bouts he has advertised (although I now understand its now down to a paltry 15 :) )

[mfc_se15]

Even if a stacked undercard has alot of home fighters fighting journeyman you have a better chance of atleast 2 or 3 turning into a right scraps if you have a high number of fights on a bill.

Get yourself down Mickey Helliots show (elephant and castle) Friday. He's bound to have a couple of good ones out of the 17 bouts he has advertised (although I now understand its now down to a paltry 15 :) )

I'm there Friday. He has got the right idea with small halls loads of local lads fairly new to the game, who bring decent support with them, plus also a load of competitive fights.

Having said that he does have some TV shows though with Eurosport, don't know if Fridays is one of those.

[ShadrachSimmo]

The Kelvin Hall had a decent turnout i thought as others added. The selling of alcohol at venues could make a difference it's a very good point.

[LeedsLad]

People won't pay to watch ''prospects'' vs a 2-65 journeyman, and rightly so.

Promoters need to learn that they actually need to promote, not just book a venue and then try and stack the card with as many fights as possible.

Punters want to watch good fights, not just fighters whom they are told are good. If there's two young middleweights on the same bill, why not put them in together? If they don't fancy it (or their manager/trainer doesn't fancy it) tell them there's no work. No work = no money.

In terms of journeymen, I'd quite like to see a revamp of the ''Prizefighter = The Journeymen'' idea, and offered (on here) to help with the idea. The money doesn't have to be £32k - could be 10, 20 or whatever. We'd see 8 fighters in entertaining fights, when usually they step in at late notice, only to bore the pants off us trying to go the distance so they don't get suspended for four weeks.

That's not good for them, and it's not good for us either!

[Bleak]

£30-£35 is what put me off going, i used to attend allot of small halls then one day twigged it was a 7-0 v a 1-17 type fight and stopped enjoying going the boxing, last time I went was September 2010 no headliner on the bill either just 5 fights 6 and 4 rounders

[jBacca]

Great thread and its a subject that really interests me. What sort of attendance was there at the Kelvin didn't seem too bad on the tv? I was on twitter today and Steve Wood was bemoaning the poor attendance at the Olympia last night. I spoke to him on twitter and said I'm the type of fight fan that he should be attracting hardcore fan though I dont personally know any of the boxers on the show. It seems to me the only real way of getting a ticket. I also commented that I didnt really know too much about the show until it was too late and I had made other plans.

Wood replied and explained that it had been on local radio and in the Echo and also on social media. I offered to volunteer to help the promotion next time he promotes in Liverpool and received no reply.

I feel that promoters are a bit complacent. Essentially they are expecting to fill a hall with friends and family of boxers. Yes that needs to be done but there are plenty of fight fans in Liverpool who are willing to come out for a good scrap. With all respect to Harkin and Newman £30 for that one competitive fight + 6 prospect v journeymen doesnt cut it. There needs to be 3 fights of that level consistently ever month or so. Build a brand that will make people come back knowing that when they go to a VIP/Vaughan promotion there will be a good night of fights. 4 well matched is better than 8 prospects v journymen and a competitive fight.

I dont blame only the promoters boxers and managers need to take their share. Unwillingness to fight other prospects and protection and overvaluing themselves seems to be a problem currently in the sport. It shouldnt be that they need to sell 100 tickets to get on a show it should be they need to be prepared to fight another unbeaten prospect. The problem is the "0" and ticket selling culture just perpetuates everybody aversion to risk at this level. Ive offered my services for free to help in the past be it as a street team or in just the behind the scenes running of the show and have been knocked back by a number of different promoters.

If they are so assured they couldnt do with a volunteers help such as mine to help sell the shows free of charge somebody who is passionate about the sport and who wants to do well. How will they ever improve attendances unless they are prepared to change?

As on twitter, I wholeheartedly agree.

[LeedsLad]

£30-£35 is what put me off going, i used to attend allot of small halls then one day twigged it was a 7-0 v a 1-17 type fight and stopped enjoying going the boxing, last time I went was September 2010 no headliner on the bill either just 5 fights 6 and 4 rounders

I agree.

People WILL watch boxing, there is the interest there.

Whenever it's on ITV/C5 the figures are good, but they won't fork out for tickets to watch rubbish.

[dalcumly]

The golden age for professional boxing in this country would probably have been in the 1930's. There are a number of reasons for this , one being the lack of alternative entertainment in those days. there are so many other things for people to do nowadays .
However , as the occasional big fight event demonstrates ,there are millions of 'casual' boxing fans out there . The question is - how do you get them interested on a more regular basis ?
First of all , you need to take the fights to the fans . Promote small hall shows in the local community on a regular basis , so that local people start to build up a habit of saying that on the last Friday of every month there will be a boxing show down the Town Hall , for instance . This type of event would run at a loss until a fan base is built up ,but if people start to see good quality exciting fights ,then there is a real chance they may start rolling up .
Fighters have to start changing their attitude . When I was young it was a humiliation to get beat ,whether it was in the ring or in the school playground . Turning up for a contest and simply accepting a defeat is not on . I know you can't win every fight , but you've got to have a bit of pride ,surely ? So called journeymen v journeymen would go a long way to sorting this out .
Trainers have to take a look at themselves . Everybody seems to be taught how to attack -where are the defensive skills ? And ,by the way , counter attacking doesn't mean that you accept 2 hard smacks in the face so that you can swing a big left hook in the hope of catching your opponent . I watched Ricky Hatton practising this prior to one of his fights !!! Ricky was an really exciting fighter ,and was great for the game , but if you didn't follow boxing and you saw him in a crowd , could you guess which sport he participated in ???? Could you guess which sport Herol Graham was involved in ??? I don't think so .
Bottom line , take the sport back to the masses . Yes , get fighters to sell tickets , but get the ordinary man back into the halls . If this means selling drink ,OK , as long as there is security . I'm talking about getting the over 35's into attending boxing , not the teenage half-wits, who could cause a fight in an empty house !!

[rhino222]

In my eyes the problem is 2 fold.

1. prices need to be dropped (to 20 quid) and lets have free entrance for u16's (max 2 with a paying adult) as the kids are the future of the sport.

2. fights need to be 50/50 ish. both fighters need to have a chance of winning. its not about the level of the fighters, its about the closeness in standard. in race horsing its a tiered system, perhaps boxing needs this.

[Jeff Thomas]

Disagree with the Kelvin Hall show being poorly attended - one of the tiers was full and the other maybe had 100-150 seats at the back vacant. Could have had more floor seats in but there must have been at the very least 1600 -1800 there considering the capacity is 2500.

The camera panned round on one of the earlier fights and there were about 12 people sat there. That's part of the problem.

[smoggy7188]

Even if a stacked undercard has alot of home fighters fighting journeyman you have a better chance of atleast 2 or 3 turning into a right scraps if you have a high number of fights on a bill.

Get yourself down Mickey Helliots show (elephant and castle) Friday. He's bound to have a couple of good ones out of the 17 bouts he has advertised (although I now understand its now down to a paltry 15 :) )

I would if I lived down south but as the name suggests i live up north.

[SteveDow]

Interesting thread.

As others have mentioned the cost of attending some of these shows is very expensive for what is on offer. I attend around 3 or 4 shows a year but generally only go to the bigger events (this year I was at Froch v Bute and will be at Haye v Chisora and hoping to catch a David Price fight at some point this year) and spend a lot more money watching those or where there is a particular fighter I want to see I'll go along to a show with that fighter on.

In an economic recession, not many people outside friends and family will pay £30+ to watch a bunch of novices fight other novices or a journeymen get slayed by an up and coming prospect. The fact is that people will save their money and spend more on tickets for the shows they want to see. Consequently the option promotors have is either to reduce the prices or put better quality fights on the cards. If they are unwilling to do either then poor attendances will continue and make the shows economically unviable.

[milpool]

Just to throw something else into the mix...a number of people I know won't go to a live show as they think it's attended by a load of dick heads thinking they're hard because they're supporting their mate/relative etc...
I can understand where they're coming from to an extent as you often see a group of plastic 'boys' along with a smattering of fat birds squeezing into a little dress giving it the big 'un.
But I think those of us who go regularly realise it isn't really like that but it can sometimes come across that way on TV when they do a close up of the crowd.

For me I think it's the price that puts people off. It aint cheap these days and £30 is usually the norm for a cheap ticket for a small hall show.

[magnus]

A lot of really good points raised in this thread.

For me, small-hall boxing needs more competitive fights, not just longer cards. If there are 15 fights scheduled, who really wants to shell out to watch these if you know the fighter on the left-hand side of the schedule will win 19 times out of 20.

It seems like promoters rely too much on selling tickets to fans of individual fighters, who might be quite happy to pay to watch their mate win endless 6x3s against journeymen, rather than fans of the sport itself.

I have a great deal of respect for the guys who fight as opponents week-in, week-out, they are fantastic at what they do, which is generally not get stopped and lose on points. However, can it really be justified to charge punters £30-£60 for the privilege of watching a “contest” where one of the participants isn’t trying to win?

[StevenB]

As someone who's first love is boxing but has worked in marketing all my life to make a living, this is a fascinating subject to me.

The boxing fanatic in me agrees with much of what's been said. The key has to be bold matchmaking. This will obviously appeal to the hardcore audience but what I think some promoters miss is the fact that casual sports fans are more likely to go to an event (any sport) if they hear their friends and family raving about it in conversation or online. Ie down the pub or at the footy, the conversation goes something like...''I went to another Dave Coldwell boxing show last week and honestly, it was brilliant - only cost £20 saw three brilliant fights, couple of big knockouts...you should come, it's great value, etc....'

One of the biggest shifts in marketing in recent times is that through social media and review sites (think TripAdvisor), the consumer now holds all the aces. You just cannot get away repeatedly with producing a shit product. The power of independent referrals from your peers or in some cases complete strangers is much, much stronger than the biggest of advertising campaigns in the medium to long term. I can tell you until im blue in the face that the company i work for make the best cars in the world. But one person telling their mates how much they love their car and what a good deal they got is a million times more powerful. A promoter could spend hundreds of thousands promoting a show and could sell it out for sure. But if it's gash and most who go slate it, guess what, those who feel disappointed and ripped off will not recommend it, wont go again themselves and the cycle is broken. You then have to do the same again next time to fill your show, and it'll be harder.

There is no excuse for lazy marketing by boxing promoters now, just advertising in the boxing print. For example, You can serve your ads on Facebook now just to a specified target audience, who you know are interested in boxing because of their friends, posts and interests. You can also serve the ads just to people who live in certain towns etc. Same with google ads, they can be served locally. And you only pay for the ad if it's clicked on. I've not seen a single promoter advertise a show on Facebook yet. It's not anywhere near as expensive as you might think...(I don't work for them by the way :). Outside of boxing publications and with the exception of the very biggest shows, I can't remember the last time I saw a boxing show advertised, online or in print.

Recently, Coldwell boxing sold out the Woodhouse v Miles show. Now, with huge respect to both, neither are what you would say are show headliners but they punted that show constantly on Twitter, online and sold thousands of tickets. After the show, I saw Dave personally respond to many tweets from happy punters and they will all go again, perhaps with their mates this time. Who knows. That's the difference between having a social media account with someone from the office doing it (as some promoters do) and being personally active on social media and communicating with fans. It's not rocket science.

Anyway, like I said, the marketing is only one side of it. Product quality has to come first. I for one think that the lack of TV for all but Matchroom and BN is a mixed blessing. In the short term, there's going to be hard times. But I hope that it sees the end of hot prospect vs 2-65 journeyman and I hope it makes some promoters stop relying on selling tickets to friends and family and really start to 'promote' their shows. Then we'll see more shows back on TV I hope when constant sell outs and 50/50 fights demand it.

[Sid-the-hat]

I think the darts/drinking thing has merit. If you were allowed to watch boxing in venue with beer in skiff in venues I think it would help - maybe it is something Luxembourg/allegedly will look into if BBBofC row continues post-Haye/Chisora.

You see 15 fight bills with 13 of them you're 99% certain what the result is going to be on Helliott/Goodwin shows because they don't want to lose money. If ticketsellers pay for opponents and give 500 to the house they might just break even. You cant blame them for this. It is so expensive to put on fights.

Even Maloney when he had the tv contract would have struggled to make any money from each show.

I think Hearn's said they don't make money from boxing other than prizefighter/big fights (eg Froch-Bute, Brook-Hatton).

I guarantee you Coldwell would have lost a shitload from his show. If you're not selling 2.5k tickets it is nearly impossible not to do so. Have to weigh up is it worth good publicity for a consistent loss. I know he has funding but there comes a point where people wont want to pour money into a pit when there is no light at end of tunnel. The only way to make money is to get your fighter in a big fight. Which is why you see the fascination with 0's.

In an ideal world there would be divisions in boxing. Maybe Ross Minter's semi-pro stuff as Conference-equivalent, then journeyman and new fighters in division 3, fringe/contenders in div 2 and british elite. Then could judge foreigners on where they fit. Never gonna happen obviously.

[Khaosai-Galaxy]

Let's lay it on the table! There are no tv dates.... There is no longer the requirement for fighters to built shitty unbeaten records. Fans are wiser, journeyman unfortunately for them will cease to be as required. We can start having a competitive sport again. This is a chance for boxing to move away from the mess created by the stupid requirement for inflated paper mâché records.


But show attenendence is sparse at best, for shows to go on what needs to change? What ideas would you suggest to get bums in seats....

The attendance at the Olympia last night was shocking. As it was at kelvin hall the other night.

Its because British boxing "promoters" dont know how to promote.

[iamasadlittleboy]

Yeah promoters seem to have forgotten how promotion works which is a massive shame..Over pricing and the move to subscription TV is slowly killing the sport.