Best opposition of a title reign

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 08 Sep 2005, 16:51

With all that said in the Louis top 2 thread, which heavyweight champion actually defended against the best opposition between....

Louis/Farr,Mann,Thomas,Braddock,Schmeling,Lewis,Galento,Pastor,Godoy,
Mccoy,Simon,Baer (Max and Buddy), Carnera,Conn and Walcott.

Holmes/Norton,Weaver,Shavers,Ali,Spinks,Snipes,Cooney,Cobb, Witherspoon,Smith and Williams.

Ali/Sonny Liston,Archie Moore,Floyd Patterson, George Chuvalo,Cleveland Williams,Terrel,Bonavena,Quarry,Folley,Frazier,Foster,Norton,Foreman,Shavers,Lyle and Spinks.

A few of these were just people that they beat and weren't title fights.

But which had the best opposition?

Rory McCloskey · Post by **Rory McCloskey** » 08 Sep 2005, 19:10

i dont think louis defended his title against carnera?... that was before the max baer james j braddock fiht? am i wrong? i could be

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 08 Sep 2005, 19:29

Rory McCloskey wrote:i dont think louis defended his title against carnera?... that was before the max baer james j braddock fiht? am i wrong? i could be

No he didn't defend against him.

barry · Post by **barry** » 09 Sep 2005, 01:01

I think Ali, hands down. He fought a few that shouldn't have been in the ring with him, but he also fought the best and beat the bigger number of higher ranked heavyweights...Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Patterson, Norton, Terrell and also some of the better heavyweights that didn't win the title...Quarry, Folley, Williams, Bonavena, Lyle, Chuvalo, Foster, Shavers...Ali's record is simply amazing!

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 09 Sep 2005, 01:55

Muhammad Ali easily.

His opposition was so tough, plus he fought a lot of them at an age, when he should have been thinking about quitting.

dnahar32 · Post by **dnahar32** » 09 Sep 2005, 05:25

Interesting question.

Fighters like Sonny Liston cleaned out the division before they ever became champion and they should get more credit for that than they do. Plus, most heavyweight champions take less risks once they are champions than before. Excellent fights like Bonavena/Frazier and Ali/Doug Jones should be considered more for the fighter's opposition.

Overall, I would have to say Ali fought the best opposition. According to the Boxing Register, he was 33-5 against Top 10 contenders in his career. That speaks for itself, and we know the names.

On a side note, how about the heavyweight contender that has fought the best opposition without winning a title? My vote would go to Tom Sharkey who fought a murderer's row of heavyweights in his career and was recently inducted to the IBHOF. He fought all the champs of his time twice (Jeffries, Corbett, Fitzsimmons) and a host of solid fighters including Joe Choynski, Gus Ruhlin, Peter Maher, and Kid McCoy.

How about other near heavyweight champs that fought a lot of tough foes in competitive scraps?

tonyevs · Post by **tonyevs** » 09 Sep 2005, 05:42

Good original thread

Suppose it would be Ali, he fought over a long time-span which helped, and with TV really giving the hype-factor he does seem to have fought the best in the best era.

But what if Joe Louis had the benefit also of having TV to hype the quality of his opposition, maybe we wouldn`t remember a long stretch of it being the bum a month tour when in reality most could really have been the best about at that time.

barry · Post by **barry** » 09 Sep 2005, 06:03

It wouldn't really matter because the quality of opposition that Louis faced just does not stand up to that of Ali. Louis also fought and beat an entire list of top heavyweights, both champions and contenders, but overall, Ali beat more fighters that are now considered all-time heavyweight greats than any other heavyweight in history. The bum of the month was a little harsh, but Louis did fight a few that should not have even been at ringside, much less in the ring with him, but Ali did also...it's just that overall, the fighters that Ali fought and beat, most could have held the title had they not been in the era that they were!

As to heavyweights that didn't win the title...Jerry Quarry comes to mind, but there were a load of 1930s and 1940s heavyweights that have resumes just about as impressive as Louis, with the exception that they lost more than Louis did.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 09 Sep 2005, 06:08

dnahar32 wrote:On a side note, how about the heavyweight contender that has fought the best opposition without winning a title? My vote would go to Tom Sharkey who fought a murderer's row of heavyweights in his career and was recently inducted to the IBHOF. He fought all the champs of his time twice (Jeffries, Corbett, Fitzsimmons) and a host of solid fighters including Joe Choynski, Gus Ruhlin, Peter Maher, and Kid McCoy.

I couldn't agree more. Sailor Tom Sharkey was probably the best HW to never win a championship. A few others in this category would be Sam Langford, Harry Wills and Peter Jackson.

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 15 Sep 2005, 11:09

Ali by a mile, fought the toughest heavies in history over two careers....had to totally adapt his stle from 1970 onwards, now that's class and that is why to me, he was the greatest champ. Louis had the most defenses, but Ali fought the tougher opposition and he had the 3 yr layoff, Louis neve made it at his comeback and he never faced the calibre of fighters Ali did....

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 15 Sep 2005, 11:53

Are we agreed that within their title reigns, Louis, Ali, Marciano and Holmes never ducked anyone? If anything they welcomed all comers.
And talent rich eras only matter if people are engaging with the "talent"/

None were in control of the guys out there ready willing and able to fight so we can't say anything bad about any of them on that score. However Ali gets a very significant nod that his era was a bit more talent rich.

I dont think the "non ducking" claim can be made of any other contemporary or near contemporary HW champions. Though some may want to bring Lewis's name into this catagory I suppose it's plausible and we will likely hear from them in this thread. Tyson will remain suspect as he at least put off Holyfield and Lewis. I felt Holyfield put off Lewis as well. Thats my take.

I don't think this argument can be exported in any direct way into who could beat who though. Though many of us make an attempt to do so.

The Boxing Enthusiast · Post by **The Boxing Enthusiast** » 15 Sep 2005, 15:47

Lennox Lewis.

Razor Ruddock, Tony Tucker, Frank Bruno, Oliver McCall, Tommy Morrison, Ray Mercer, Henry Akinwande, Andrew Golota, Shannon Briggs, Zeljko Mavrovic, Evander Holyfield, Micheal Grant, Frans Botha, David Tua, Hasim Rahman, Mike Tyson, and Vitali Klitchko. There were some bums in there too, but I didn't feel like all that typing.

The only thing that would make somebody discredit this list is nostalgia. It's comparable to any other on this thread, and even outweighs a few.

IMO,
TBE

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 15 Sep 2005, 18:12

Ali definately.... the heavyweights of the 60s and 70s were pretty awesome.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 15 Sep 2005, 18:13

I'd say after Ali Larry Holmes had the best opposition... the heavies of the early 80s are generally very underrated.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 15 Sep 2005, 18:16

Ezzard Charles fought very impressive opposition from middleweight to Heavyweight... his record reads like a whos who of the greats of the 40s and 50s.....

sweetsci · Post by **sweetsci** » 15 Sep 2005, 18:53

I think a good way to answer this question would be to compare each fighter's opponents' rankings going into each bout. I've always used Ring for this sort of thing. 'Course this would only work for champions after Dempsey, as I understand there were no boxing rankings until the mid-1920's.

The Boxing Enthusiast · Post by **The Boxing Enthusiast** » 15 Sep 2005, 19:15

The Boxing Enthusiast wrote:Lennox Lewis.

Razor Ruddock, Tony Tucker, Frank Bruno, Oliver McCall, Tommy Morrison, Ray Mercer, Henry Akinwande, Andrew Golota, Shannon Briggs, Zeljko Mavrovic, Evander Holyfield, Micheal Grant, Frans Botha, David Tua, Hasim Rahman, Mike Tyson, and Vitali Klitchko. There were some bums in there too, but I didn't feel like all that typing.

The only thing that would make somebody discredit this list is nostalgia. It's comparable to any other on this thread, and even outweighs a few.

IMO,
TBE

I repeat, LENNOX LEWIS. You can compare his to Ali's line for line. The only reason anyone would say that Lewis' resume is weak is because for some reason, most boxing purists believe- unfortunately- that after Mike Tyson's dominance in the mid eighties, there was never to be a great fighter ever again. Truth is, Lewis's resume is a who's who list of world class fighters in the 1990's. It's every bit as good as Muhamad Ali's record. Not saying Ali wasn't the most dynamic HW fighter ever- but Lennox Lewis's record speaks for itself, in my mind. These were all bad dudes when he came through. I seem to remember the 90's as a great era in HW boxing, personally. Holyfield, Bowe, Gollota, Botha, Tua, etc. I had a great time if none of you did. And Lewis beat every last one of them.

IMO,
TBE

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 15 Sep 2005, 19:24

The Boxing Enthusiast wrote:
The Boxing Enthusiast wrote:Lennox Lewis.

Razor Ruddock, Tony Tucker, Frank Bruno, Oliver McCall, Tommy Morrison, Ray Mercer, Henry Akinwande, Andrew Golota, Shannon Briggs, Zeljko Mavrovic, Evander Holyfield, Micheal Grant, Frans Botha, David Tua, Hasim Rahman, Mike Tyson, and Vitali Klitchko. There were some bums in there too, but I didn't feel like all that typing.

The only thing that would make somebody discredit this list is nostalgia. It's comparable to any other on this thread, and even outweighs a few.

IMO,
TBE
I repeat, LENNOX LEWIS. You can compare his to Ali's line for line. The only reason anyone would say that Lewis' resume is weak is because for some reason, most boxing purists believe- unfortunately- that after Mike Tyson's dominance in the mid eighties, there was never to be a great fighter ever again. Truth is, Lewis's resume is a who's who list of world class fighters in the 1990's. It's every bit as good as Muhamad Ali's record. Not saying Ali wasn't the most dynamic HW fighter ever- but Lennox Lewis's record speaks for itself, in my mind. These were all bad dudes when he came through. I seem to remember the 90's as a great era in HW boxing, personally. Holyfield, Bowe, Gollota, Botha, Tua, etc. I had a great time if none of you did. And Lewis beat every last one of them.

IMO,
TBE

What you been smokin man!?? cause its too strong!!!. Jeeze!!!...

Rory McCloskey · Post by **Rory McCloskey** » 15 Sep 2005, 19:49

The Boxing Enthusiast wrote:Lennox Lewis.

Razor Ruddock, Tony Tucker, Frank Bruno, Oliver McCall, Tommy Morrison, Ray Mercer, Henry Akinwande, Andrew Golota, Shannon Briggs, Zeljko Mavrovic, Evander Holyfield, Micheal Grant, Frans Botha, David Tua, Hasim Rahman, Mike Tyson, and Vitali Klitchko. There were some bums in there too, but I didn't feel like all that typing.

The only thing that would make somebody discredit this list is nostalgia. It's comparable to any other on this thread, and even outweighs a few.

IMO,
TBE

lennox lewis? so ur prepared to rate rudduck tucker mccall evander and mercer.( tyson doesnt count because normal tyson woulda F'ed him up)

over

chuvalo frazier (3 times) foreman norton shavers lyle sonny floyd archie and bonavena... cmon dude. i could give u a list of heavyweights with tougher schedules...

louis marciano ali dempsey johnson..(anyone who ever faced ali or louis, and was a top fighter at the time.)

theone · Post by **theone** » 15 Sep 2005, 21:11

No contest Ali. He quite agruably beat four out of the top ten greatest heavyweights of all time.

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 16 Sep 2005, 07:24

Who's the 4th top ten heavyweight that Ali beat?

I know Frazier, Foreman and maybe Liston but who else?

Grimm · Post by **Grimm** » 16 Sep 2005, 07:25

The Boxing Enthusiast wrote:
The Boxing Enthusiast wrote:Lennox Lewis.

Razor Ruddock, Tony Tucker, Frank Bruno, Oliver McCall, Tommy Morrison, Ray Mercer, Henry Akinwande, Andrew Golota, Shannon Briggs, Zeljko Mavrovic, Evander Holyfield, Micheal Grant, Frans Botha, David Tua, Hasim Rahman, Mike Tyson, and Vitali Klitchko. There were some bums in there too, but I didn't feel like all that typing.

The only thing that would make somebody discredit this list is nostalgia. It's comparable to any other on this thread, and even outweighs a few.

IMO,
TBE
I repeat, LENNOX LEWIS. You can compare his to Ali's line for line. The only reason anyone would say that Lewis' resume is weak is because for some reason, most boxing purists believe- unfortunately- that after Mike Tyson's dominance in the mid eighties, there was never to be a great fighter ever again. Truth is, Lewis's resume is a who's who list of world class fighters in the 1990's. It's every bit as good as Muhamad Ali's record. Not saying Ali wasn't the most dynamic HW fighter ever- but Lennox Lewis's record speaks for itself, in my mind. These were all bad dudes when he came through. I seem to remember the 90's as a great era in HW boxing, personally. Holyfield, Bowe, Gollota, Botha, Tua, etc. I had a great time if none of you did. And Lewis beat every last one of them.

IMO,
TBE

I forgot about him he had pretty good competition.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 16 Sep 2005, 10:06

Rory McCloskey wrote:
The Boxing Enthusiast wrote:Lennox Lewis.

Razor Ruddock, Tony Tucker, Frank Bruno, Oliver McCall, Tommy Morrison, Ray Mercer, Henry Akinwande, Andrew Golota, Shannon Briggs, Zeljko Mavrovic, Evander Holyfield, Micheal Grant, Frans Botha, David Tua, Hasim Rahman, Mike Tyson, and Vitali Klitchko. There were some bums in there too, but I didn't feel like all that typing.

The only thing that would make somebody discredit this list is nostalgia. It's comparable to any other on this thread, and even outweighs a few.

IMO,
TBE
lennox lewis? so ur prepared to rate rudduck tucker mccall evander and mercer.( tyson doesnt count because normal tyson woulda F'ed him up)

over

chuvalo frazier (3 times) foreman norton shavers lyle sonny floyd archie and bonavena... cmon dude. i could give u a list of heavyweights with tougher schedules...

louis marciano ali dempsey johnson..(anyone who ever faced ali or louis, and was a top fighter at the time.)

Certainly Lewis competition doesn't compare line for line with Ali. If you are impressed with, Bruno,McCall, Morrison, Akinwande, Golota, Briggs, Mavrovic, Grant, and Botha, you are impressed very easily.

Not saying that Lewis ducked anyone. Wasn't his fault that Bowe didn't fight him. I do give him more credit for beating Tyson that most people,he was older than Tyson and it's Tyson's own fault if he wasn't at this best.
However, to compare his "resume" to Ali's is ridiculaus.

Cojimar 1945 · Post by **Cojimar 1945** » 16 Sep 2005, 16:51

Whether someone is in their prime when beaten would appear to be very significant and Lennox Lewis has some problems in this regard. How does beating Tyson prove anything considering how far past his best Tyson was?

Rory McCloskey · Post by **Rory McCloskey** » 16 Sep 2005, 19:03

ali competition makes lewis competition look like a golden gloves tourney

Best opposition of a title reign

Best opposition of a title reign

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past their best