Fake Dempsey-Greb video, dont be fooled

[klompton]

An unscrupulous boxing film collector is at it again. For years this guy had a film on his list for sale which was purported to be Dempsey sparring Harry Greb. He took it off after being repeatedly called out on it (If I recall it was actually Dempsey sparring Jock Malone in 1919 prior to the Willard fight which he had edited out of the theatrical version of Dempsey-Willard). Now on his website he has posted several photos of a film which he states is Dempsey sparring Greb. Dont be fooled! This is actually Jack Dempsey sparring Tillie Kid Herman in 1926 prior to Dempsey's first bout with Tunney. It is part of the Fox Movietone News collection and is clearly catalogued as such (despite this guy having his own copyright logo across the stills LOL). Since this guy calls himself "the Expert in the field of Boxing" he should know better and I suspect he keeps doing this to draw out unsuspecting collectors for sales opportunities. I would urge people to steer clear of him.

[Chuck1052]

Steve, it is my understanding that Tillie "Kid" Herman was managed by Leo Flynn and acted a sparring partner for Jack Dempsey in 1927. Of course, this does not mean that Herman didn't spar with Dempsey in 1926.

- Chuck Johnston

[klompton]

He sparred with Tillie Kid Herman in 1926 as well. Do a search on "Dempsey Kid Herman" in the google news archive and you will find plenty of articles describing their sparring in 1926. Below is the catalogue description of the clip in question from the Fox Movietone News Archive:

MVTN B3281 3290: Boxing: Slow Motion Analysis of Dempsey's Form
Date June, 1926
Place Hendersonville, North Carolina, United States
Content Summary Slow motion analysis of Jack Dempsey's form as he trains for his next bout in defense of the title. S1. Long high slow motion of Dempsey fighting in outdoor ring, spectators in background. S2. Closeup slow motion of fighting. S3. A tough job and a job for a tough man is that of sparring partner for the heavyweight champ. Closeup slow motion fighting. Cuts: Dempsey visits Mr. and Mrs. Hughie Jennings. Dempsey with babies. Dempsey and father, Jack Dempsey, Sr., play horseshoes. Additional scenes same subject. Note: Tillie Kid Herman, Farmer Lodge, Johnny Kleaschi, Mike Arnold, Sid Mciver; TEMPORARY DESCRIPTION; used in 7/102 (silent)
Crew Information Reek
Item Characteristics B&W , Silent , 2.61 minutes
Cassette # FILM

[Bladder]

An unscrupulous boxing film collector is at it again. For years this guy had a film on his list for sale which was purported to be Dempsey sparring Harry Greb. He took it off after being repeatedly called out on it (If I recall it was actually Dempsey sparring Jock Malone in 1919 prior to the Willard fight which he had edited out of the theatrical version of Dempsey-Willard). Now on his website he has posted several photos of a film which he states is Dempsey sparring Greb. Dont be fooled! This is actually Jack Dempsey sparring Tillie Kid Herman in 1926 prior to Dempsey's first bout with Tunney. It is part of the Fox Movietone News collection and is clearly catalogued as such (despite this guy having his own copyright logo across the stills LOL). Since this guy calls himself "the Expert in the field of Boxing" he should know better and I suspect he keeps doing this to draw out unsuspecting collectors for sales opportunities. I would urge people to steer clear of him.

So is Kurt playing people for mugs or does he really believe that it's Dempsey/Greb?

[klompton]

Well, he is "THE EXPERT IN THE FIELD OF BOXING" so Im sure he knows what hes got. Its not hard to find out anyway. His reputation isnt exactly sterling to begin with so, you tell me.

[klompton]

Here is his description and you tell me if he is being dishonest:

"These never before seen images of the titanic Jack Dempsey - Harry Greb sparring session from 1920 come from the original film of that classic sparring session, found deep in the Ringwise vault of oldtime fights.

These images clearly show the 25 pound lighter all time great Middleweight Champion, Harry Greb easily dominating , schooling, playing with the hardest hitting heavyweight Champion of all time Jack Dempsey."

Now lets examine the facts here:

"Never before seen?" Ive had this film for twenty years and known exactly what it was the entire time. As stated above, it is clearly listed and catalogued.

"Jack Dempsey - Harry Greb sparring session from 1920" In 1920 Dempsey was still wearing his famous whitewall haircut (short on top with shaved sides and back). He would wear his hair like this well into 1921. In the photos Kurt exhibits (and better shown in the film) Dempsey has longer hair on top and the sides arent shaved.

"From the original film found deep in the Ringwise vault" Interesting claim. The original film actually resides at the University of South Carolina. If Kurt is claiming to have this film deep in his vaults why does it have a timecode on it. LOL.

[Boilermaker]

Here is his description and you tell me if he is being dishonest:

"These never before seen images of the titanic Jack Dempsey - Harry Greb sparring session from 1920 come from the original film of that classic sparring session, found deep in the Ringwise vault of oldtime fights.

These images clearly show the 25 pound lighter all time great Middleweight Champion, Harry Greb easily dominating , schooling, playing with the hardest hitting heavyweight Champion of all time Jack Dempsey."

Now lets examine the facts here:

"Never before seen?" Ive had this film for twenty years and known exactly what it was the entire time. As stated above, it is clearly listed and catalogued.

"Jack Dempsey - Harry Greb sparring session from 1920" In 1920 Dempsey was still wearing his famous whitewall haircut (short on top with shaved sides and back). He would wear his hair like this well into 1921. In the photos Kurt exhibits (and better shown in the film) Dempsey has longer hair on top and the sides arent shaved.

"From the original film found deep in the Ringwise vault" Interesting claim. The original film actually resides at the University of South Carolina. If Kurt is claiming to have this film deep in his vaults why does it have a timecode on it. LOL.

So the video really shows Tillie Herman easily dominating Jack Dempsey

[klompton]

I was going to address that point as well but figured it wasnt worth it. Its just a sparring session where both fighters are obviously working on things. There is no domination by either. This comment by Kurt was obviously to draw people in.

[BoxBuzz]

Cripes....what on earth is the point of such a charade?

[Bricks]

Here is his description and you tell me if he is being dishonest:

"These never before seen images of the titanic Jack Dempsey - Harry Greb sparring session from 1920 come from the original film of that classic sparring session, found deep in the Ringwise vault of oldtime fights.

These images clearly show the 25 pound lighter all time great Middleweight Champion, Harry Greb easily dominating , schooling, playing with the hardest hitting heavyweight Champion of all time Jack Dempsey."

Now lets examine the facts here:

"Never before seen?" Ive had this film for twenty years and known exactly what it was the entire time. As stated above, it is clearly listed and catalogued.

"Jack Dempsey - Harry Greb sparring session from 1920" In 1920 Dempsey was still wearing his famous whitewall haircut (short on top with shaved sides and back). He would wear his hair like this well into 1921. In the photos Kurt exhibits (and better shown in the film) Dempsey has longer hair on top and the sides arent shaved.

"From the original film found deep in the Ringwise vault" Interesting claim. The original film actually resides at the University of South Carolina. If Kurt is claiming to have this film deep in his vaults why does it have a timecode on it. LOL.

I share your sense of outrage. Thanks for calling him out on this......

[dempseyfire]

An unscrupulous boxing film collector is at it again. For years this guy had a film on his list for sale which was purported to be Dempsey sparring Harry Greb. He took it off after being repeatedly called out on it (If I recall it was actually Dempsey sparring Jock Malone in 1919 prior to the Willard fight which he had edited out of the theatrical version of Dempsey-Willard). Now on his website he has posted several photos of a film which he states is Dempsey sparring Greb. Dont be fooled! This is actually Jack Dempsey sparring Tillie Kid Herman in 1926 prior to Dempsey's first bout with Tunney. It is part of the Fox Movietone News collection and is clearly catalogued as such (despite this guy having his own copyright logo across the stills LOL). Since this guy calls himself "the Expert in the field of Boxing" he should know better and I suspect he keeps doing this to draw out unsuspecting collectors for sales opportunities. I would urge people to steer clear of him.

Ha, I just found the website . . I'd actually never encountered him before and now never will. The website is a mess anyway, and I never deal with sites which aren't up-front about pricing.

[CNorkusJr]

Over the years, I worked with several collectors on obtaining old or new footage of some of my father's fights. Approx 5 collectors.
I understand your point on getting fake footage and the sham con he is purporting, unfotunately, I am unaware of who this guy is.

I would like to know if it is one of the dealers that I work with on occaision. Can you post him name publicly here ? If not ,can you please PM me his name and site ? I understand if you PM me the info, I will not post it publicly, it will be only for my future reference.

Thank You Klompton. Charlie Norkus Jr.

[Bladder]

Over the years, I worked with several collectors on obtaining old or new footage of some of my father's fights. Approx 5 collectors.
I understand your point on getting fake footage and the sham con he is purporting, unfotunately, I am unaware of who this guy is.

I would like to know if it is one of the dealers that I work with on occaision. Can you post him name publicly here ? If not ,can you please PM me his name and site ? I understand if you PM me the info, I will not post it publicly, it will be only for my future reference.

Thank You Klompton. Charlie Norkus Jr.

If you look at the 4th post in this thread, I mention his christian name.

[keithmoonhangover]

I would like to add that there is a fake Leonard - Hagler video going around.

You can tell that it's a fake, because people who watch it think Hagler won.

[boxbible]

Over the years, I worked with several collectors on obtaining old or new footage of some of my father's fights. Approx 5 collectors.
I understand your point on getting fake footage and the sham con he is purporting, unfotunately, I am unaware of who this guy is.

I would like to know if it is one of the dealers that I work with on occaision. Can you post him name publicly here ? If not ,can you please PM me his name and site ? I understand if you PM me the info, I will not post it publicly, it will be only for my future reference.

Thank You Klompton. Charlie Norkus Jr.

If you look at the 4th post in this thread, I mention his christian name.

Kurt is a Nordic name.

[Sven Tingstrom]

Kurt is German name, not Nordic.

[klompton]

Arent Germans and Nords predominantly christian?

...wait, wasnt this about a con man and a boxing video to begin with LOL.

[HomicideHenry]

I would of loved to of seen video of Dempsey sparring that 7'2" giant Ben Wray, where Dempsey kayoed him in less than thirty seconds and broke the giant's jaw.

[Giancarlo]

I would of loved to of seen video of Dempsey sparring that 7'2" giant Ben Wray, where Dempsey kayoed him in less than thirty seconds and broke the giant's jaw.

Can't help with that particular fantasy Rufus, but here's something to make you smile.

[Bladder]

Now he claims to have Greb-Bill Tate ...... is he right this time Klompton?

[klompton]

No. Not only is that not Greb but its also not Bill Tate. That guy is a joke.

He has a training video of Dempsey up listed as 1921 and its really from 1926/27.

[dempseyfire]

No. Not only is that not Greb but its also not Bill Tate. That guy is a joke.

He has a training video of Dempsey up listed as 1921 and its really from 1926/27.

Do you know who is in the film?

[Bobbyptsd]

I know very little of fighters this far back, but I'm surprised anyone would try to fool boxing enthusiasts with something like this.

I mean, if you're the type of guy who's in the market for footage of Harry Greb, surely you know what Greb looked like?

Seems like a strange way to try to scam people to me.

[klompton]

Hes done stranger stuff than that. About 15 years ago I bought some VHS tapes from him. Some of the fights that I paid for were missing and another one was missing the first four rounds of a 12 rounder. When I asked him about this he apologized and said he would put them on my next order. Talk about a scam. Needless to say I ate the loss and there was no "next order."

Since then Ive seen where he periodically comes up with these scams. He tries to entice purchases by claiming he has something ultra rare, like Greb-Dempsey, or Greb-Tate. Its a weak marketing ploy. He claims hes got this, you order it, along with other fights in order to make your purchase worth it) and then when someone like me points out that its not Greb he can claim ignorance and hope that you liked the other footage enough to keep buying from him. If you ever buy anything from him get his copy of Tommy Ryan-Hugo Kelly from 1907. Compare it side by side with the film of Carpentier-Klaus (which is genuine) and tell me they arent the same thing...

[klompton]

No. Not only is that not Greb but its also not Bill Tate. That guy is a joke.

He has a training video of Dempsey up listed as 1921 and its really from 1926/27.

Do you know who is in the film?

Id have to do some digging, which Im not really inclined to do. In fact judging by the dress of the people in the background and the style of trunks, shoes, and socks Im not even convinced this was filmed before Greb died. My best guess would be the late twenties at the earliest and possibly as late as the early 1940s.