Grow Up Boxrec and put the full Upton Park results up

[Bajingo]

Firstly let me say I love Boxrec, schedules, ratings, records, forums, for me they are great and part of my daily life.

With that out the way I would like to say I personally think its the wrong decision not to record the Haye fight on there records, its up currently as a No Contest, with a line underneath about Haye winning in the fifth.

The bout may have not been sanctioned by the local authority i.e. BBBOC but it was sanctioned by a boxing union, it was also given credence by two world organisations who allowed it to be
fought for two (spurious i know) belts. (1)

The fight was an official fight with medical staff, world ranked judges and referees, was fought in front of nigh on 30,000 fans, for the life of me I cannot see what the problem is in displaying the result.

I have always felt this was an independant site and I still like to think it is but there is clearly a judgement being made somewhere to not show the result 2), surely there cannot be any legal worries, every newspaper in the country has something about the fight, every website that remotely covers boxing has a report and comments etc, news channels across the world have had at least a line in there sports round up.

I just think common sense should prevail and the result be listed as any result at a responsible promotion would be.

Good post

1. This is something that everyone should acknowledge needs to be disregarded. These organisations do not give a flying you know what. If an independent, credible records site decided to list results and shows based on whoever a 'governing body' decided to make up belts for, for money, chaos would ensue.

2. This is right but, trust me, it isn't for the reasons some people think (and are making defamatory comments about). I suspect it's mainly about the validity of the commission. I think it was valid; some others don't because the EBU decided to kick them out...even though technically they weren't booted out until yesterday. What regular forum users, I suppose, might not be suspected to understand is that a big can of worms is being opened in record keeping terms.

A few questions.

Do you want future LBF shows (if they have any) recorded, even though they are effectively a rogue commission and not part of the EBU? If so, does that mean one has to record the shows from other independent commissions who have no established ties with anyone else or those who might even have been kicked out from other places? If the answer is yes, what happens when a lad who has a 20-0 on one of these commission's shows is brought over to the UK and fights a concussive puncher? BoxRec will have been responsible for giving a veneer of respectability to something which might not be as robust as you would like.

Let's say Haye and a Klit doesn't happen. A promoter suggests staging Haye v Price under the auspices of the EBF. This would be perfectly legal. Does BoxRec record it? If it does, does it record all past and future EBF shows?

In short, my view is that the to-ing and fro-ing about the results is not necessarily about this bill itself but future implications.

Honestly, it's a bloody minefield.

Good points, are they going to change all of Sauerland's shows in Germany to NCs as well, as they do the same thing there? Not trying to sound like You Know who but it's complete hypocrisy, Boxrec needs to stay impartial and not be influenced by promoters, sanctioning bodies, whoever.

[RonnieTheSharkClark]

WHAT A LOT OF RUBBISH!!! BOTH FIGHTERS PUT ON AN EXCELLENT FIGHT AND BROUGHT A LOT OF RESPECT TO THE RING, YEAH THEY MADE A MISTAKE "A BIG ONE AT THAT" BUT DON'T WE ALL!!! I THINK BOXREC SHOULD JUST GET OVER IT, THE FIGHT HAS HAPPENED SO PUT IT UP ON YOUR SITE SO THE PUBLIC KNOW EXACTLY WHATS WENT ON INSTEAD OF JUST IGNORING THE SITUATION!!!

GO ON BOXREC DO THE RIGHT THING!!!!!!!

[dondada]

[Good points, are they going to change all of Sauerland's shows in Germany to NCs as well, as they do the same thing there? Not trying to sound like You Know who but it's complete hypocrisy, Boxrec needs to stay impartial and not be influenced by promoters, sanctioning bodies, whoever.

Why would the Sauerland shows be changed to NCs when they were ran by a non-rogue commission and when the authorities of that country (Germany) weren't protesting at the involvement of said body (the Austrians)? It's not a like-for-like comparison, IMO. But there are other examples to back you up...just not this one

[dondada]

WHAT A LOT OF RUBBISH!!! BOTH FIGHTERS PUT ON AN EXCELLENT FIGHT AND BROUGHT A LOT OF RESPECT TO THE RING, YEAH THEY MADE A MISTAKE "A BIG ONE AT THAT" BUT DON'T WE ALL!!! I THINK BOXREC SHOULD JUST GET OVER IT, THE FIGHT HAS HAPPENED SO PUT IT UP ON YOUR SITE SO THE PUBLIC KNOW EXACTLY WHATS WENT ON INSTEAD OF JUST IGNORING THE SITUATION!!!

GO ON BOXREC DO THE RIGHT THING!!!!!!!

Hmmm...the subtlety of your considered points is beginning to sway me personally, for sure

[The Insider]

The Haye v Chisora result should be acknowledged and documented in the usual manor. If in the future the LBF put shows on and the organisation is not acknowledged by the BBBOC and or the EBU (as now is the case, although I think this may be over turned after a long legal wrangle) the results should be ignored as is the case with EBF, IBA , BBU etc.

[Wake up call]

The best thing here might be to let the dust settle, see what action the board takes and see what the LBF does next before making a decision.

Personally I can see the board backing down, the LBF disappearing off the scene and FW getting more power than he had before, which is not a good thing.

[GlobalBox]

Firstly let me say I love Boxrec, schedules, ratings, records, forums, for me they are great and part of my daily life.

With that out the way I would like to say I personally think its the wrong decision not to record the Haye fight on there records, its up currently as a No Contest, with a line underneath about Haye winning in the fifth.

The bout may have not been sanctioned by the local authority i.e. BBBOC but it was sanctioned by a boxing union, it was also given credence by two world organisations who allowed it to be
fought for two (spurious i know) belts.

The fight was an official fight with medical staff, world ranked judges and referees, was fought in front of nigh on 30,000 fans, for the life of me I cannot see what the problem is in displaying the result.

I have always felt this was an independant site and I still like to think it is but there is clearly a judgement being made somewhere to not show the result, surely there cannot be any legal worries, every newspaper in the country has something about the fight, every website that remotely covers boxing has a report and comments etc, news channels across the world have had at least a line in there sports round up.

I just think common sense should prevail and the result be listed as any result at a responsible promotion would be.

Out of interest, would you like to see white collar fights listed on boxrec as long as there is judges, referees and medical staff?

Not particularly to be honest, I would like the fights listed on boxrec to display a list of recognised fights for professional boxers, i.e. Haye/Chisora I would like to be shown. However, should Haye retire and in 3 years fights down at the Circus Tavern against Bad Billie Bathtub, I would be quite happy for that not to be shown, despite the fact there would be refs/judges,docs etc.

I just want Boxrec to use some common sense really, they have been doing it for so many years and done a wonderful job, this is just a poor decision by them to be honest for whatever reason.

[Jeff Thomas]

[Good points, are they going to change all of Sauerland's shows in Germany to NCs as well, as they do the same thing there? Not trying to sound like You Know who but it's complete hypocrisy, Boxrec needs to stay impartial and not be influenced by promoters, sanctioning bodies, whoever.

Why would the Sauerland shows be changed to NCs when they were ran by a non-rogue commission and when the authorities of that country (Germany) weren't protesting at the involvement of said body (the Austrians)? It's not a like-for-like comparison, IMO. But there are other examples to back you up...just not this one

Can you explain this more Ian? How dies it work over there and how does this differ?

[dondada]

[Good points, are they going to change all of Sauerland's shows in Germany to NCs as well, as they do the same thing there? Not trying to sound like You Know who but it's complete hypocrisy, Boxrec needs to stay impartial and not be influenced by promoters, sanctioning bodies, whoever.

Why would the Sauerland shows be changed to NCs when they were ran by a non-rogue commission and when the authorities of that country (Germany) weren't protesting at the involvement of said body (the Austrians)? It's not a like-for-like comparison, IMO. But there are other examples to back you up...just not this one

Can you explain this more Ian? How dies it work over there and how does this differ?

Hello mate. Part of the spin put out was that Allegedly channel was simply doing what Sauerland has done before - staging a show in one country under the auspices of a foreign country's board. Sauerland did this in Germany via the Austrian board. There are two key differences though. Firstly, none of the German boards protested against Austria's involvement (to my knowledge)...in any case, they would have difficulty doing so because Germany is very fragmented in governance terms compared to Britain (i.e there are several Boards in Germany). Secondly, the EBU didn't have a vote to kick Austria out. So it wasn't really a like-for-like comparison, IMO.

[Wake up call]

Hello mate. Part of the spin put out was that Allegedly channel was simply doing what Sauerland has done before - staging a show in one country under the auspices of a foreign country's board. Sauerland did this in Germany via the Austrian board. There are two key differences though. Firstly, none of the German boards protested against Austria's involvement (to my knowledge)...in any case, they would have difficulty doing so because Germany is very fragmented in governance terms compared to Britain (i.e there are several Boards in Germany). Secondly, the EBU didn't have a vote to kick Austria out. So it wasn't really a like-for-like comparison, IMO.

Exactly.

There was a lot of propaganda/bullshit put out by people involved in Chisora v Haye to make it sound legitimate.

What's amazed me is how gullible people have been lapping it up. There has been some complete idiots on this forum of late spouting nonsense that was almost verbatim from he cannot be named's mouth.

[Jeff Thomas]

Thanks ... Clears it up a bit

[exittored]

Listing the fight as a NC is even dumber then not listing it at all.

Shocking stuff from boxrec.

[Final round]

Firstly let me say I love Boxrec, schedules, ratings, records, forums, for me they are great and part of my daily life.

With that out the way I would like to say I personally think its the wrong decision not to record the Haye fight on there records, its up currently as a No Contest, with a line underneath about Haye winning in the fifth.

The bout may have not been sanctioned by the local authority i.e. BBBOC but it was sanctioned by a boxing union, it was also given credence by two world organisations who allowed it to be
fought for two (spurious i know) belts. (1)

The fight was an official fight with medical staff, world ranked judges and referees, was fought in front of nigh on 30,000 fans, for the life of me I cannot see what the problem is in displaying the result.

I have always felt this was an independant site and I still like to think it is but there is clearly a judgement being made somewhere to not show the result 2), surely there cannot be any legal worries, every newspaper in the country has something about the fight, every website that remotely covers boxing has a report and comments etc, news channels across the world have had at least a line in there sports round up.

I just think common sense should prevail and the result be listed as any result at a responsible promotion would be.

Good post

1. This is something that everyone should acknowledge needs to be disregarded. These organisations do not give a flying you know what. If an independent, credible records site decided to list results and shows based on whoever a 'governing body' decided to make up belts for, for money, chaos would ensue.

2. This is right but, trust me, it isn't for the reasons some people think (and are making defamatory comments about). I suspect it's mainly about the validity of the commission. I think it was valid; some others don't because the EBU decided to kick them out...even though technically they weren't booted out until yesterday. What regular forum users, I suppose, might not be suspected to understand is that a big can of worms is being opened in record keeping terms.

A few questions.

Do you want future LBF shows (if they have any) recorded, even though they are effectively a rogue commission and not part of the EBU? If so, does that mean one has to record the shows from other independent commissions who have no established ties with anyone else or those who might even have been kicked out from other places? If the answer is yes, what happens when a lad who has a 20-0 record built on one of these commission's shows with no video evidence is brought over to the UK and fights a concussive puncher? BoxRec will have been responsible for giving a veneer of respectability to something which might not be as robust as you would like.

Let's say Haye and a Klit doesn't happen. A promoter suggests staging Haye v Price under the auspices of the EBF. This would be perfectly legal. Does BoxRec record it? If it does, does it record all past and future EBF shows?

In short, my view is that the to-ing and fro-ing about the results is not necessarily about this bill itself but future implications.

Honestly, it's a bloody minefield.

Well explained

Couldn't the fact the the EBU didn't kick them out until after the fight took place could be a good enough reason to list it correctly?

[veriton]

Boxrec is losing all credibility over this. Years of hard work building the site up are being flushed down the toilet over some point of principle that no-one understands.

[oliverfennell]

This was written by The Law on a different thread.

The reason is because Boxrec only list shows on the Boxrec 'schedule' which are sanctioned by the national governing body (i.e. the country where the fight is taking place).

We do list the 'results' of other shows (including unsanctioned shows), but they do not appear on our schedule. Therefore the result of Haye v Chisora should appear on Boxrec but it will not appear on our schedule.

We have always had this rule in place.

The results should be up.

Also, re the bit in red, as I pointed out elsewhere, Klitschko v Thompson 2 was held in Switzerland and sanctioned by the BDB of Germany. According to Law's point above, that should not have been on the schedule either.

[oliverfennell]

I don't see anything wrong with the way they've listed that.

It doesn't add to the wins and losses. You said it's not that important but I'm sure it is to the boxers - especially the winners! - and let's not forget the undercard boxers who were not involved in any part of the controversy.

Secondly, and especially with the main event, the results would affect the rankings. I would like to know where Haye stands in the rankings after this good win, and also without the L on Chisora's record, his world standing won't have suffered. You can't tell me he's just as viable a contender now as he was before Saturday because his fight wasn't "official".

[exittored]

Boxrec is losing all credibility over this. Years of hard work building the site up are being flushed down the toilet over some point of principle that no-one understands.

Great post

[exittored]

This was written by The Law on a different thread.

The reason is because Boxrec only list shows on the Boxrec 'schedule' which are sanctioned by the national governing body (i.e. the country where the fight is taking place).

We do list the 'results' of other shows (including unsanctioned shows), but they do not appear on our schedule. Therefore the result of Haye v Chisora should appear on Boxrec but it will not appear on our schedule.

We have always had this rule in place.

The results should be up.

Also, re the bit in red, as I pointed out elsewhere, Klitschko v Thompson 2 was held in Switzerland and sanctioned by the BDB of Germany. According to Law's point above, that should not have been on the schedule either.

Agreed, it's so easy to shoot down their argument.

The BBBofC is a limited company that has no official government ties or authority and is purely a money making excercise like all self appointed boxing authorites are.

[earsjohn]

The BBBofC is a limited company that has no official government ties or authority and is purely a money making excercise like all self appointed boxing authorites are.

And?

Name me one sport in the UK that has "official government ties"

All sports organisations are effectively members clubs. Remember back to 1992 when the Premier League was formed following a breakaway of clubs from the Football League. That happened with no Government involvement or intervention and it happened because a group of the organising bodies members clubbed together and decided to set up their own club. A similar thing happened when Rugby Union went professional, with the elimination of relegation from the top division. Darts, with the BDO and PDC split, is another well worn argument.

[keithmoonhangover]

This was written by The Law on a different thread.

The reason is because Boxrec only list shows on the Boxrec 'schedule' which are sanctioned by the national governing body (i.e. the country where the fight is taking place).

We do list the 'results' of other shows (including unsanctioned shows), but they do not appear on our schedule. Therefore the result of Haye v Chisora should appear on Boxrec but it will not appear on our schedule.

We have always had this rule in place.

The results should be up.

Also, re the bit in red, as I pointed out elsewhere, Klitschko v Thompson 2 was held in Switzerland and sanctioned by the BDB of Germany. According to Law's point above, that should not have been on the schedule either.

I agree and by my reckoning the following fights were held in Germany and licended by the Austrians.

Huck - Afolabi
Abraham - Wilczewski
Povetkin - Huck
Hernandez - Cunningham
and many many others.
These fight weren't sanctioned by "The National Governing Body" as quoted by The Law and none of those are No Contests.
The other impact of this stupid No Contest is that it won't have an effect on Chisora's rating.

MADNESS.

[josco]

Can anyone post the undercard results?

[rhino222]

Are Boxrec running scared of the BBB of C??

[dondada]

Boxrec is losing all credibility over this. Years of hard work building the site up are being flushed down the toilet over some point of principle that no-one understands.

Great post

Did either of you bother reading my explanation, above? Or was it that you read it, and didn't understand it?

And I say that as someone who thinks the results should be up.

[dondada]

Well explained

Couldn't the fact the the EBU didn't kick them out until after the fight took place could be a good enough reason to list it correctly?

I agree with you.

[dondada]

Are Boxrec running scared of the BBB of C??

You've said this before. What is there to be scared of, exactly?