Emmseegee wrote:Call me sad but i went through Robinsons full record on his page here on boxrec a while ago and here is how it translates into facts.... (all numbers rounded to nearest number before any smart arses start doing the maths)
Robinsons average victory came against an opponent who at the time of fighting had a record of... fought 58 times, won 39, lost 15 and drew 4
His average loss came against an opponent who atthe time of fighting had a record of..... fought 54, won 42, lost 9, drew 2.
On average he lost against the better opponents he faced so really did he lose when he was on the slide or when his opponents got stronger? A lot of his opponents wouldnt have made it as a sparring partner against todays fighters.
By the end of his career he had lost 9.5% of his fights.
I looked into his record deeply when i had a debate about modern fighters with a mate and decided to do some research. Statistics can be bent in many ways to suit any argument and i am by no means saying that they stats above describe a true reflection of how good a fighter he was but he fought in a different era, if he was alive and fighting in this era then he wouldnt have had as many fights. If mayweather was fighting in Robinsons era he may have had 100, who knows but i just feel that Robinson gets more credit than others mainly because of how many fights he had. I 100% believe that Mayweather could have beaten Robinson, if he never then he would have certainly gave it a better go than the guy who made his debut against Robinson in his 80th contest or something! Talk about padded records? lol
Before all the boxing traditionalists start slaughtering me..... im not saying that Robinson is not the greatest fighter of all time. Im also not saying that he is but do people honestly believe there is such a gulf in class between the elite of today and yesteryears? Maybe there aint as many good fighters but the best of today are just as good of the best of years gone by.
Boxrec records don't always tell the full story as a lot of fighters records are incomplete. I believe Robinson would KO Floyd. Each to their own though. Floyd had a tough night with both Castillo and Cotto and overall has fought far worse competition than Robinson, or most of the other ATG in the lightweight and welterweight divisions.
leftysreturn wrote:Here's my take on it.......Padwork does play an important part especially when it comes to working on a fighters defense because when you're doing pads you're working on slipping shots, covering up and blocking when the person on the mitts is throwing back at you and also rolling under shots,etc. You can't do that with a heavy bag because it doesnt bloody move! Anyone can stand there hitting a bag! What does that prove?! The bag doesnt hit bag so you're not learning anything. Sparring I think is the the best and most realistic training in that aspect but again Sparring is only really a valuable tool if its realistic and you're actually going at each other with bad intentions! The problem though with that obviously is that if you're sparring is realistic then thats going to shorten the length of your career because you can't be having actual fights in your gym and then having i dont know say 40 pro fights aswell. The human body just wont be able to hold up.
Were they using different human bodies back when they fought and sparred a lot more?
I also don't believe you have to go all out in sparring to make it useful. What about practicing slipping punches, sidestepping, parrying etc? Doesn't have to be full bore.
leftysreturn wrote:Here's my take on it.......Padwork does play an important part especially when it comes to working on a fighters defense because when you're doing pads you're working on slipping shots, covering up and blocking when the person on the mitts is throwing back at you and also rolling under shots,etc. You can't do that with a heavy bag because it doesnt bloody move! Anyone can stand there hitting a bag! What does that prove?! The bag doesnt hit bag so you're not learning anything. Sparring I think is the the best and most realistic training in that aspect but again Sparring is only really a valuable tool if its realistic and you're actually going at each other with bad intentions! The problem though with that obviously is that if you're sparring is realistic then thats going to shorten the length of your career because you can't be having actual fights in your gym and then having i dont know say 40 pro fights aswell. The human body just wont be able to hold up.
Were they using different human bodies back when they fought and sparred a lot more?
I also don't believe you have to go all out in sparring to make it useful. What about practicing slipping punches, sidestepping, parrying etc? Doesn't have to be full bore.
well obviously human bodies are the same, however science has moved on a lot and also nutrition. I mean back then when Robinson and co were fighting the food on offer was nowhere to what we have nowadays! I mean for the worse! Nowadays we have all this unhealthy crap on offer and You do get a lot of fighters who do eat poorly now and dont look after their bodies aswell as they should and what have you. As for having sparring that isnt full speed, I just dont think its realistic! When you're in a competitive bout your opponent isnt going to be lightly hitting you or going through the motions so I dont see the point of it in sparring. Thats just my opinion though.
We will never know but as you say, each to their own.
Im not saying Mayweather would win but just using them both as examples to describe that im not a believer that anything old beats everything new like some people seem to believe.
Some people will never believe that a player like messi could be better than pele.
Some will never believe a fighter like Mayweather could be better than Robinson.
The only sports which truly reflect that human's improve over the years are sports like athletics.
If men can run faster now than they could 50 years ago then how can they not box better, play football better etc?
Sadly its all down to opinions when it comes to some sports such as boxing.
My point is, p4p the best fighters of today in my opinion are just as good as the best fighters from any other era. Problem is, there may not be as many.
I don't think that way either and when young watching boxing, I didn't think anyone could come close to Roy Jones. With time, reading and watching fights I realised many men were better. I wish the fighters today were as good, I really do, then I'd get to watch the fights live!
Ps I rate about 40 fighters above mayweather, even though I am a fan of his boxing. So not just Robinson...
But do you think Mayweather would be severely outclassed by any of the 40?
I believe Mayweather would have been a top fighter in any era although he would have been a different type of fighter and certainly wouldnt have had his famous "0". Robinson would also be an elite fighter in any era and would likely have an "0" if he was around just now, but he wouldnt be fighting every other week. lol. Everything changes.
It annoys me when people say "How can you even compare him to Robinson, he had hundreds of fights" even although he would probably have had 50 max if he was a modern fighter.
Back to proper subject of padwork tho, Just because it didnt exist or wasnt used back in the day doesnt mean there isnt a benefit or need for it. Times change. In another 50 years people might be sparring robots which imitate their upcoming opponent to perfection. Does that mean there wont be benefit to that because Ali didnt do it? haha
Emmseegee wrote:But do you think Mayweather would be severely outclassed by any of the 40?
I believe Mayweather would have been a top fighter in any era although he would have been a different type of fighter and certainly wouldnt have had his famous "0". Robinson would also be an elite fighter in any era and would likely have an "0" if he was around just now, but he wouldnt be fighting every other week. lol. Everything changes.
It annoys me when people say "How can you even compare him to Robinson, he had hundreds of fights" even although he would probably have had 50 max if he was a modern fighter.
Back to proper subject of padwork tho, Just because it didnt exist or wasnt used back in the day doesnt mean there isnt a benefit or need for it. Times change. In another 50 years people might be sparring robots which imitate their upcoming opponent to perfection. Does that mean there wont be benefit to that because Ali didnt do it? haha
That would be good a program for everyone in your division, you would be a bit sore afterwards and your hands would sting. Yes I have watched Real Steel as well.
Scrap wrote:How do you Feel about self expression, as regards Padwork, watching different Techniques, of the Discipline.
After learning the basics most boxers will develop their own style of fighting. Some will adhere closely to the basics (upright stance, high guard etc) whereas others will express themselves in a more free-form interpretation of those same basics, and for both it can bring success (I personally enjoy watching those who "bend the rules"). Whether padwork plays a greater or lesser part in this is a moot point. I would imagine the more unorthodox boxers developed their styles in the heat of battle (sparring and actual fights) based on what worked for them.
The reason you don't see louis, Ali, Robinson on the pads is because I'm pretty certain they weren't invented. Scrap might tell me otherwise. I remember watching a video of hagler training for hearns and one of the petronelli ?!! Brothers was padding him on a pair of boxing gloves and it was considered quite an ingenious method! That's the earliest video of pad work of seen.
Theres a video of Goldman, padding Marciano, somewhere doing the same thing Jeff.Talking to Danny Holland years ago, on How it started, He told Me, itstarted behind the Iron Curtain. Talking to Papp about it He said He was coached with them in Hungary.
Theres a video of Goldman, padding Marciano, somewhere doing the same thing Jeff.Talking to Danny Holland years ago, on How it started, He told Me, itstarted behind the Iron Curtain. Talking to Papp about it He said He was coached with them in Hungary.
I've got Everlast boxing record books from 1930's and in the adverts at the back there are no pads advertised, although there is a funny target man thing, i'll try and scan it in.
also i've uploaded this docu on Howard Winstone, at 5.28 in the video you see Eddie Thomas taking Howard on the pads. Seeing as Howard retired in 1968 and it looks like a young Howard in the video its got to be around the late 50's early 60's
Pads work no question it helps a trainer get up close and personal with the fighter and also shows whether the fighter is generating the right power something you couldn't tell from hitting a bag. I wouldn't go into a fight without pad work.
