Amateur Boxing Scoring - Help is on it's way !

[hhascup]

Help is on it's way. After this Olympic Games the scoring system will be the same as the Pro's. They will be using the 10 point must system. We can start right away or we can wait until the 1st of the year. By January 1st, everyone has to use this system. As the President of the New Jersey Association of USA Boxing I can not wait!

They changed the system back when Roy Jones Jr., was robbed in the Olympics. I do a lot of Amateur Boxing Ring Announcing and most of the time I will try to explain how the scoring system works to the crowd. I will tell them that they can l and a good right hand that puts me on the canvas and you land another good left that does the same thing, But I get up and land 3 good left jabs before the end of the round. In Pro boxing you would be a head 10-7, but in Amateur boxing I would be a head 3-2. Also if I throw a punch that first hits your glove, then hits your chin and hurts you, it's not counted as it wasn't a clean punch.

What NBC should have done was to have another person on TV from AIBA that knows how the scoring system works. He or she could then explain to everyone how the system works and why the scores end up the way they do. Years ago, they had a 20 point system which worked find.

Also the head gear will be eliminated for the Open Class Boxers !

[JMac]

Also the head gear will be eliminated for the Open Class Boxers !

Headgear will not be eliminated for open class boxers. It will be eliminated for only world level tournaments. Open class boxers on the local and national level will have to still wear them.

[T Duquette]

Ya because professional style scoring is so much better

[Dennis]

It will still be subjective so there will always be "bad" decisions. Controversial decisions will always exist. Will AIBA give extra points for punishing blows or knockdowns? Will 1 hard power punch that wobbles a boxer equal 5 jabs? Will body punches be scored more often? It really depends on the judges and the scoring criteria.

[hhascup]

Judging like the Pro's is much better, as most people are use to that kind of scoring. I know what your going to say But I have been with the Amateurs, as well as the Pro's, for decades and the system they have been using since the Olympics Roy Jones Jr., got robbed, is not better. Right now if Ali fought Frazier in an Amateur bout, Ali would win just about every time, as Ali throws more and lands more then Frazier in the fights they had against each other, but not so if we use the 10 point must system.

[Kolya]

Yeah, 10 point must will be great when international rivalries come into play. Let's have a totally subjective system where the judge can say "that was my opinion" and not have to back it up at all. No one will get screwed then.

[boxmel]

Yeah, 10 point must will be great when international rivalries come into play. Let's have a totally subjective system where the judge can say "that was my opinion" and not have to back it up at all. No one will get screwed then.

I'm assuming you are being sarcastic here, Kolya. What you said is exactly what happened with Roy Jones that forced us to computer scoring or be dropped as an Olympic sport. I can bet that if they go back to manual scoring in the Olympics, and if there is another Roy Jones incident, there will be no more amateur boxing in the Olympics - unless Wu can somehow snow the IOC.

[hhascup]

Yeah, 10 point must will be great when international rivalries come into play. Let's have a totally subjective system where the judge can say "that was my opinion" and not have to back it up at all. No one will get screwed then.

When there is a bout between 2 boxers from 2 different countries, they should use judges and referees from another country.

Also I just talked to a AIBA official and he told me that they used mostly young officials, instead of experienced ones. Some young officials get a lot of work because there LBC has a lot of events, But others don't.

[Kolya]

Yeah, 10 point must will be great when international rivalries come into play. Let's have a totally subjective system where the judge can say "that was my opinion" and not have to back it up at all. No one will get screwed then.

When there is a bout between 2 boxers from 2 different countries, they should use judges and referees from another country.

Also I just talked to a AIBA official and he told me that they used mostly young officials, instead of experienced ones. Some young officials get a lot of work because there LBC has a lot of events, But others don't.

They already uses judges from different countries. Hell, Mel can tell you better than I, but from what I remember currently the judges and referee can't even be from the same continent as the boxers competing. And yes, Mel, that was sarcasm.

[hhascup]

Yeah, 10 point must will be great when international rivalries come into play. Let's have a totally subjective system where the judge can say "that was my opinion" and not have to back it up at all. No one will get screwed then.

When there is a bout between 2 boxers from 2 different countries, they should use judges and referees from another country.

Also I just talked to a AIBA official and he told me that they used mostly young officials, instead of experienced ones. Some young officials get a lot of work because there LBC has a lot of events, But others don't.

They already uses judges from different countries. Hell, Mel can tell you better than I, but from what I remember currently the judges and referee can't even be from the same continent as the boxers competing. And yes, Mel, that was sarcasm.

I just wanted to make sure everyone knew that. The 10 point must system will not stop bad decisions But it's a lot better then what we have now.

[Kolya]

[quote="hhascup]
I just wanted to make sure everyone knew that. The 10 point must system will not stop bad decisions But it's a lot better then what we have now.[/quote]


No, it's a lot better for Amercians than what we have now. And that's because our national governing body is inept. The scoring at the Olympics hasn't stopped Russia and Cuba from churning out extremely capable boxers that still fight with a great deal of skill.

[Kolya]

I just wanted to make sure everyone knew that. The 10 point must system will not stop bad decisions But it's a lot better then what we have now.

No, it's a lot better for Americans than what we have now. And that's because our national governing body is inept. The scoring at the Olympics hasn't stopped Russia and Cuba from churning out extremely capable boxers that still fight with a great deal of skill.

[boxmel]

I just wanted to make sure everyone knew that. The 10 point must system will not stop bad decisions But it's a lot better then what we have now.

Do you have any idea why computer scoring was mandated by the IOC? Manual scoring (20-point must) was in effect in Seoul in 1988. Roy Jones had totally obliterated his Korean opponent and lost on a 3/2 split. At the end of the bout, two judges had Jones winning and two had the Korean winning. The fifth judge, when asked, and this is a quote, stated that he 'voted' for the Korean because he knew that Jones had won and he wanted the host country boxer to have at least one judge giving him the win. After that, the IOC demanded that AIBA come up with a scoring system when the judges could be held accountable. If AIBA goes back to a 10-point must, manual scoring system, there is no way to determine what the judges are doing or how they arrive at their scores. Let's say a judge wants the Russian boxer to win - all he or she has to do is score 10-9 in every round for the Russian - and there is no way to break down the punch count. Makes cheating really easy. I honestly don't know how you can say it's a better scoring system than what we have now, but you are entitled to your opinion.

Also I just talked to a AIBA official and he told me that they used mostly young officials, instead of experienced ones. Some young officials get a lot of work because there LBC has a lot of events, But others don't.

I'm sure you must have misunderstood the AIBA official you spoke with. You don't get to work the Olympics unless you are very experienced and are vetted by AIBA to do so. The other countries aren't set up the way we are so the LBC explanation doesn't fit with the AIBAs from other countries. Our US AIBA at the Olympics this year is very experienced, nationally and internationally.

Just my opinion, of course.

[hhascup]

I just wanted to make sure everyone knew that. The 10 point must system will not stop bad decisions But it's a lot better then what we have now.

Do you have any idea why computer scoring was mandated by the IOC? Manual scoring (20-point must) was in effect in Seoul in 1988. Roy Jones had totally obliterated his Korean opponent and lost on a 3/2 split. At the end of the bout, two judges had Jones winning and two had the Korean winning. The fifth judge, when asked, and this is a quote, stated that he 'voted' for the Korean because he knew that Jones had won and he wanted the host country boxer to have at least one judge giving him the win. After that, the IOC demanded that AIBA come up with a scoring system when the judges could be held accountable. If AIBA goes back to a 10-point must, manual scoring system, there is no way to determine what the judges are doing or how they arrive at their scores. Let's say a judge wants the Russian boxer to win - all he or she has to do is score 10-9 in every round for the Russian - and there is no way to break down the punch count. Makes cheating really easy. I honestly don't know how you can say it's a better scoring system than what we have now, but you are entitled to your opinion.

Also I just talked to a AIBA official and he told me that they used mostly young officials, instead of experienced ones. Some young officials get a lot of work because there LBC has a lot of events, But others don't.

I'm sure you must have misunderstood the AIBA official you spoke with. You don't get to work the Olympics unless you are very experienced and are vetted by AIBA to do so. The other countries aren't set up the way we are so the LBC explanation doesn't fit with the AIBAs from other countries. Our US AIBA at the Olympics this year is very experienced, nationally and internationally.

Just my opinion, of course.

I know all about what happened with Roy Jones Jr. No matter what scoring system is used we will always get bad decisions. This happened in several other sports as well like figure skating and Gymnastics.

I talked to several people from AIBA and they all stated the same thing. In New Jersey or New York, I know we have a lot of shows each year. Last year we had 65 just in New Jersey so our officials get a lot of work, same goes for New York and several other states. With that saying, a lot of other states and countries have a lot less and the officials don't get the experience. Just because they have been an amateur official for 10 years, don't mean that they got a lot of experience.

[boxmel]

I know all about what happened with Roy Jones Jr. No matter what scoring system is used we will always get bad decisions. This happened in several other sports as well like figure skating and Gymnastics.

Why do you think a manual scoring system is better than computer scoring?

[hhascup]

I know all about what happened with Roy Jones Jr. No matter what scoring system is used we will always get bad decisions. This happened in several other sports as well like figure skating and Gymnastics.

Why do you think a manual scoring system is better than computer scoring?

Because most boxing fans can understand it. Plus a big punch would count much more then some little one.

[rampage]

I know all about what happened with Roy Jones Jr. No matter what scoring system is used we will always get bad decisions. This happened in several other sports as well like figure skating and Gymnastics.

Why do you think a manual scoring system is better than computer scoring?

Don't be naive Mel. It's every bit as easy to cheat with computer scoring/clickers--you simply choose to click when you want to click. No one forces you to click when a punch lands clean, and you can click even when a punch is blocked or misses. It's quite easy to fudge the numbers, and it happens all the time. And there's still no accountability, as you seem to think. If a bad decision is given, there's little that can or will be done about it. You can complain, file a grievance, whatever, but it's a waste of time and money because no action will be taken.

With pro style scoring there will certainly still be lots of bad decisions, but at least you can take into account knockdowns and effective scoring vs. pitty pat punches that don't do anything but touch your opponent.

[boxmel]

Because most boxing fans can understand it. Plus a big punch would count much more then some little one.

Yes - most pro boxing fans - who do not understand amateur boxing.. Whether scoring on the computer or scoring manually, the criteria is the same: the blow must land in the scoring area with the weight of the shoulder behind it while not fouling and with the knuckle surface of the glove. Each blow counts as 1 punch. There is no difference in scoring a 'big' punch or a 'little' one - as long as it is a legal scoring blow. Amateur boxing does not score ring generalship.

[boxmel]

Don't be naive Mel. It's every bit as easy to cheat with computer scoring

It's harder to cheat with computer scoring because you can actually see when a judge is pushing the button.

you simply choose to click when you want to click. No one forces you to click when a punch lands clean,

True - but if 4 out of 5 judges push the button for a clean punch and you do not, consistently, the people watching what the judges are doing (the jury in the Olympics) are going to be able to see that and get suspicious.

and you can click even when a punch is blocked or misses.

But if you are the only judge pushing the button when a punch is block or misses, it's going to look pretty suspicious.

It's quite easy to fudge the numbers,

Not really.

And there's still no accountability, as you seem to think

.
Yes, there is. Judges scoring is watched closley.

If a bad decision is given, there's little that can or will be done about it.

And what's you criteria for a bad decision? If you are watching a bout on TV, seeing one point of view, do you really think you can determine what is or is not a good decision? I've been judging for 25 years and I don't even try and judge that way.

You can complain, file a grievance, whatever, but it's a waste of time and money because no action will be taken.

You're correct, if you're trying to grieve a score card decision. Several bouts have been changed at the Olympics due to bad referring.

With pro style scoring there will certainly still be lots of bad decisions,

Please remember that there is scoring criteria for amateur boxing that is totally different than that of the pros. Therefore, the 10 point must system is not going to be scored like the pros do. When I got involved as a judge, we were using a 20 point must manual system and the amateur criteria was used.

but at least you can take into account knockdowns

Knockdowns only count as one punch as long as it comes by way of a legal blow. That won't change with manual scoring.

and effective scoring vs. pitty pat punches that don't do anything but touch your opponent.

Frankly, I don't count pitty pat punches, unless they are being thrown by an 8 or 9 year old.

[usaboxing142]

I'm going to have to agree with Mel,I think the new scoring will be twice as worst as the point system!!now we have to guess which judge is going to like what on that day,ring generalship or effect aggressiveness and so on!

[boxmel]

ring generalship or effect aggressiveness and so on!

This is NOT part of amateur boxing scoring criteria and never has been. I don't think ya'll have to worry.

[rampage]

-Perhaps it's easier to see this on the actual computer version (although I'm not convinced--maybe the people in charge can see this, but almost no one else can see which jugde scores which punch, and those in charge can also look at manual scorecards the exact same way if there is something fishy), but certainly not with the pen and paper/clickers version that the vast majority of fights, at least in the US, are scored with. In this, there is no way to tell when a judge is clicking unless you happen to be right next to him. All you can do is look at his card after the fight.

-From all the posts I've read, you seem to be very stubborn and defensive when anyone criticizes judges, but the fact of the matter is that it is quite easy for judges to cheat with the current scoring system. It can and does happen frequently, everywhere from local smokers to national and international competition, and it is every bit as common with our amateur system as it is in pro boxing.

-It's also suspicious when a judge consistently gives rounds or fights to someone who, in most others eyes, isn't winning.

-I'm not talking strictly about Olympic or international boxing. I'm talking primarily about boxing within the US. Perhaps it's better regulated at that level, although you wouldn't know it from all the controversial decisions we've already seen this year (yes, some have been reversed, but not all). Maybe you are the most honest judge in the sport, but you are a rare breed. When one goes to a smoker most of the judges will be from that area. Winning a decision against a hometown fighter is very hard in many places, just as hard as with pro scoring. This may be due to flat out dishonesty because they want their hometown boys to win, or it may be that they aren't trying to be dishonest, but rather have a simple subconscious bias, but either way it's quite common to see bad decisions or out and out robberies. And, again, regardless of how suspicious it looks, nothing is really done about it, at least not on that level. You will simply get the speech about how they are volunteers and bad decisions happen, but you would be wasting your time and money to get the judge suspended/reprimanded/whatever.

-Yes, it is easy to fudge the numbers--again, all you have to do is not click if you don't want to or to click even when a punch is blocked. Again, I'm talking about the clickers that are usually used, not the computer program. Frankly, if you really wanted to you could just make up numbers here and write down whatever you wanted. But even with the actual computer version, it's quite common to get controversial decisions.

-Silly question. My criteria for a bad decision is when a decision should have gone the other way. Yes, judging is and always will be subjective, but come on Mel--sometimes everyone knows who won and the decision still goes the other way.

-We aren't discussing refereeing, we're discussing judging.

-I understand the scoring is different in amateur and pro--that's the problem, and that is hopefully what is being fixed. No, pro scoring isn't perfect--far from it. It is subjective, and as such there will be many controversial decisions. Nonetheless, it is much better than the current system.

-I realize that a knockdown only counts as the punch that landed, 1 point. That is silly and should be changed. How can you say that it would be the same with pro-style scoring? Even if they instruct the judges to now give an extra point for a knockdown (for instance, to still score it 10-9 for the boxer who wins the round rather than 10-8), the judges can still give the round to the boxer who scored the knockdown even if he was out-landed that round. Also, I'm not so sure that knockdowns won't be counted as extra, but I won't argue that point because I haven't looked into it. But I'm almost positive that with the old 20 point system, you deducted points for knockdowns or when a boxer took a beating in a given round, and I'm confident it will be the same with the new 10 point system--it would defeat the purpose if they didn't.

[boxmel]

But I'm almost positive that with the old 20 point system, you deducted points for knockdowns or when a boxer took a beating in a given round,

It's been a while but I don't believe it was done that way. IIRC, we kept track of the punches in our head and added and subtracted off one boxer. For instance, Blue scored two legal punches. Blue is up two. Red scores a legal blow, Blue is now down to one punch. Red scores two more punches and is now up one punch. At the end of the round Red has 20 and Blue has 19. 3 punches equaled one point so if Blue has 6 punches at the end of the round, the score would then be Blue 20 and Red 18.

I'm not totally defensive when it comes to judging. Yes, I've seen bad decisions and deliberate cheating (at the local level) but I still think it's easier to determine cheating at the national and international level if you can see what buttons a judge is pushing via the computer. I worked a dual with Mexico in 2000 as the computer tech. The Mexican judge continually pushed his button for the Mexican boxer untl he was taken aside and 'counseled.' With manual scoring there is no way to determine what a judge is doing. It's real easy to 20-19 or 10-9 a boxer to a win without even counting punches. Defense? "That's the way I saw it." And, yes, you can cheat with the clickers but I was mainly addressing Olympic scoring where they are still using the computer.

[BARNEYKX]

an absolute disgrace the refereeing tonight in the heavyweights Russo the italian all he did was hold throught the fight he should have been thrown along with the referee

and the young Karneyeu robbery was that blatent Richie said he never seen the like of it in his years of boxing

[rampage]

But I'm almost positive that with the old 20 point system, you deducted points for knockdowns or when a boxer took a beating in a given round,

It's been a while but I don't believe it was done that way. IIRC, we kept track of the punches in our head and added and subtracted off one boxer. For instance, Blue scored two legal punches. Blue is up two. Red scores a legal blow, Blue is now down to one punch. Red scores two more punches and is now up one punch. At the end of the round Red has 20 and Blue has 19. 3 punches equaled one point so if Blue has 6 punches at the end of the round, the score would then be Blue 20 and Red 18.

I'm not totally defensive when it comes to judging. Yes, I've seen bad decisions and deliberate cheating (at the local level) but I still think it's easier to determine cheating at the national and international level if you can see what buttons a judge is pushing via the computer. I worked a dual with Mexico in 2000 as the computer tech. The Mexican judge continually pushed his button for the Mexican boxer untl he was taken aside and 'counseled.' With manual scoring there is no way to determine what a judge is doing. It's real easy to 20-19 or 10-9 a boxer to a win without even counting punches. Defense? "That's the way I saw it." And, yes, you can cheat with the clickers but I was mainly addressing Olympic scoring where they are still using the computer.

Interesting. I didn't realize that was how the 20 point system worked.

I still disagree that it's harder to cheat with computer scoring. Even if it is, that does not eliminate bad decisions. Did you watch the 2nd session of the Olympics today? The judging and refereeing was ludicrous.