yiddo14 wrote:HomicideHenry wrote:yiddo14 wrote:Homicide, you do realise that British tabloids are notorious for making up quotes and never let the truth get in the way of a good story. Similar to the criminal world, especially when talking about their own exploits. One or two travellers have been known to spin a yarn on the odd occasion too! All makes for very exciting reading at times but in reality I suspect a lot of it is embellished at best and total lies at worst!
Some of the stories and legend surrounding Gorman are similar to the jokes made about Chuck Norris!
The same could be said of any newspaper though. I can give you a hundred articles that were misleading or outright false. I just happened to put up what information I had on hand, because I was asked 'where's the proof?', As for Gorman spinning yarns; of all the traveller or hardmen books I have read, I do believe this account that he writes for himself is the most honest of all that I have read. In comparison to Shaw and McLean's books, they claim they never lost a fight, never heard of such challenges from other big name men of their eras, etc. And that of course is all rubbish. Gorman acknowledges in his books the men he tried to face, or just fell short of facing and gives dates and names. And he is humble, he doesnt say 'Oh I would have destroyed Shaw and McLean' he simply says "I will let you (the reader) decide on that as to who would have won". Gorman was a documented amateur boxer, there is concrete proof he had the talent and the power to of been a good pro, and there's little doubt in my mind that he was the best BKB man of his time because of his prowess in comparison to others of his own culture and in the criminal underworld.
Shaw never said he didn't lose in his book. He also said Stander would have battered him had he been fit.
I see a documentary on Bartley a few years ago and if memory serves me right he wasn't exactly a shy and retiring type when being interviewed! Some of the stuff he came out with was amusing ( if memory serves me right he was talking about his throat being broken, 'they broke my Adams apple', reminded me of when Tyson was talking rubbish about breaking his back! )
He was sitting around his plot singing a song etc, maybe you have seen the same thing?
Why didn't anyone film the self proclaimed ( yep, he says it in the documentary somewhere ) 'bare knuckle champion of the whole world'? Surely a man of such reputation would have been filmed at some point? The only footage I have seen of him is puffing and wheezing as an old man hitting a bag being held by an even older man.
There are two men from my town who challenged Lenny McClean apparently, and we're turned down. One of these men also challenged and beat gypsy men in fights. He hasn't got a book out but I'm sure if he got the right writer he could word it so plenty would read it and say to themselves 'wow, he must have been the greatest!'
In terms of men ( allegedly ) beat, it seems McClean and Shaw have a better record in terms of quality.
Stander, although injured, surely stands out as the best win on all these guys "records"
Tell me Homicide, have you any experiences with the travelling community?
The throat bit was him talking about the Doncaster Incident, after kayoing Bob Gaskin. They tried to cut his leg off and shoved a pipe down his throat. AGAIN, look it up it happened. It isnt a fabricated story. Gorman was in crutches for over a year because of that incident; it was even chronicled in Uriah Burton's book, and others.
There is film of Gorman in the 80's, but albeit there isnt much to show. However he was out in the press. There is many pictures of Gorman out there as an amateur boxer fighting; as for the BKB fights, since these were illegal events, I am doubtful there were ever pictures taken. However, virtually every gypsy man in England and Ireland will say Gorman was a fighter.
As for what criticism there is to make about Gorman being old and wheezing, I dont see your point he was in his 50's when he made that video with Shane Meadows; and that 'older man holding the bag' is Smiddy Smith, who was another good gypsy fighter in his prime years. Obviously neither men were in their prime in the video; Gorman himself will say in his book that by the late 80's early 90's he did not consider himself to be the top bare knuckle man, he gave that honor to his cousin John Fury who would fight Henry Akinwande in a British title eliminator. Even John Fury will tell you Gorman was the real deal in his prime (late 60's early 80's).
Shaw was an old man when he went into the unlicensed circuit, 39 years old when he beat Donny Adams. As a young man he boxed as Roy West as a middleweight; but even he will admit that the best men in his time were Cliff Fields, Kevin Paddock and Johnny Waldron. Gorman himself in his book says that Fields was a legitimate fighter, but that the rest of the field were door men and bully boys, or washed up amateurs and pros. Gorman was bigger physically than Shaw, and as we have seen even a limited big man (McLean) could beat Shaw; as for the match with Stander, even Shaw will say that he was tipped off that Stander has broken ribs coming into this exhibition, and he used that advantage, and said that is Stander was 100% that he would have been murdered by Stander.
allegedly will tell you, same as Gorman does in his book, that many of the white collar circuit matches were out right fixes and mismatches. And Warren was Lenny McLean's cousin! Not to say they didnt have power or werent tough men, but for crying out loud a preliminary gloved boxer could have beaten them. At least Gorman has the testimony of Ken Buchanan's manager that he kayoed Roger Barlow in sparring; and Barlow was the top man in England at light heavyweight at the time. Gorman also kayoed Don Halden, who was a powerhouse .500 fighter; to say the Gorman didnt have the pedigree or the ability is beyond madness, cus of what, there was no film or pictures of these fights?
As for my own relationships with the travelling community, I am good friends with Bobby Gunn the current world title claimant, along with Danny Batchelder (who is half gypsy), Willie Small whose father is 'The Travelling Preacher Man' Willie Small, and at one point I was on good standing with James Quinn McDonagh, however I wont go into the reason for the falling out. My ex fiance was a traveller. BUT 1st & foremost,I can tell the difference between a hardass and a fighter; probably the best hardass to put the gloves on was Paul Sykes, and he crumbled before John L. Gardner. He was just a big strong guy. Now, was Gorman just a big strong guy? Could have been. But he did have the credible witnesses, as stated before, who thought he had the talent and ability to of been a good heavyweight professional, if not British champion.
Trust me, I know the shit the travellers talk, all of them do it. That is why you have to connect the dots with other sources that are more credible; Uriah Burton always claimed to of been undefeated, yet there are sources that say he would get drunk and get beaten up by people. Gorman claims to be undefeated in bare knuckle fights, though he admits to losing on a few occasions in amateur boxing. So far I havent met a man who said he ever was beaten in bare knuckle fights. I think however Gorman is believable, because he will admit in his book there were better men than him; he held Johnny Frankham high in regard, as well as his brother Sam (who sparred with Jerry Quarry), and John Fury, etc.
I cant say the same for McLean, who claimed he never lost on the cobbles or in the ring, when it is well known he lost to Shaw the first time, as well as to Fields and Paddock and Waldron, and Lord Jesus knows only how many more men. He can thank His lucky stars Paul Sykes busted his hand in a bar fight the night before they went head to head, cus nobody would be talking Lenny McLean right now. As for Shaw, he was a bit more modest; but, he cannot say he did not know of Gorman or any challenges from Gorman, because it was in the papers at that time.
