Jimmy Ellis - Jerry Quarry 4/27/68

[yancey]

Anybody remember this fight for the WBA title?

I remember watching it live as it was nationally televised, fully expecting Quarry to win.

Sometime after the fight, I read that Quarry allegedly had back issues going into the fight.

Anybody know the real story on the back issue?

If he wasn't truly ready, why didn't Jerry and his team give it more time?

[klompton]

Shortly before the fight Jerry and one of his brothers were horsing around. Jerry was slammed into a pinball machine and ruptured a disk in his back. His dad argued for him to continue to go through with the fight as a cash grab, reasoning that he may never get another shot at the title and Ellis wasnt that great anyway. The problem was Ellis was in his absolute prime at this time which was good enough to give Quarry all kinds of problems. To Quarry's credit he never used it as an excuse for losing the fight and instead stated he fought the wrong fight. He fought the wrong fight but those close to him felt it was because his back limited his mobility and flexibility and hampered his ability to really pressure Ellis. Instead Quarry fought a very patient fight, waiting for Ellis the entire time. Bad strategy against Ellis who was better when allowed to fight at a comfortable pace. As it was he still only lost a majority or split decision if memory serves.

[dempseyfire]

The fight was a complete snoozer, which was surprising as on paper it looked to be an outstanding fight. Quarry wasn't aggressive enough but at the same time he'd received that criticism in other fights. While I don't doubt he entered the fight with some sort of back injury, that it was a slipped disk is a little hard to believe considering he looked about the same as he always did.

[bennie]

You guys make me feel so young.

[yancey]

You guys make me feel so young.

And you make me feel like a rocket scientist.

[klompton]

I believe Quarrys injury was bad enough to hamper his ability. Quarry could be inconsistent but when he was young he was rarely lethargic. He looked stiff, and inactive against Ellis, someone who was nevet intimidating.

[yancey]

As I recall, Quarry was extremely upset after the Ellis loss and for a while wanted to quit the game.

He probably knew he had no business losing to Jimmy.

[BoxBuzz]

As I recall, Quarry was extremely upset after the Ellis loss and for a while wanted to quit the game.

He probably knew he had no business losing to Jimmy.

But that's why he ultimately does not make the cut as "elite of the elite". You're right, he had no business chalking up that loss.

[klompton]

Agreed. He had more than one if those losses that kept him from greatness: machen, chuvalo, ellis, etc

[BoxBuzz]

Agreed. He had more than one if those losses that kept him from greatness: machen, chuvalo, ellis, etc

....before we all pile on, I do think he had some purely rotten luck, all of those matches apply. He is just short of great, and had he had just a wee bit of that ol "luck of the Irish". We might all (me included) be singin' a different song.

I think he was the one guy that fell just short of Ali and Frazier. And as such...in a class to himself, a notch ahead of Norton.

[yancey]

If Quarry had beaten Ellis like he should have, the resulting unification match with Frazier would have made for a seriously good gate.

Not in the FOTC class, but still big bucks, I reckon.

[klompton]

And unfortunately for quarry the result would have been the same.

[BoxBuzz]

Yep Frazier and Ali were a surefire notch up the ladder.

[yancey]

And unfortunately for quarry the result would have been the same.

Sure the result is the same, I'm just saying a match between a WBA tourney winner Quarry vs Frazier to unify the title would have been a much hyped, big dollar affair.

[BoxBuzz]

yancey....it may well have been a harder fought fight, each man defending his title. Could have been pretty damn dangerous for both guys.....

[klompton]

I dont think Frazier-Quarry 1 could have been any harder fought. At least not by Quarry. He had a tendency to go to the ropes naturally. Frazier was a master at pinning the guy to the ropes. That fight played out exactly as it always would have with Quarry on the ropes fighting for his life and Frazier banging away at him inside the pocket.

[yancey]

There was criticism of the way Quarry fought Frazier by coming out and going head to head.

Jerry won the first round, but Joe went back to his corner with a little smile on his face.

If....

you are Johnny Flores and can get Jerry to listen to you, how else would you have had Jerry fight Joe?

It is not like Jerry was a mover.

To me his best bet was to go ahead and mix with Joe and try to land a big shot. Frazier was going to make him fight no matter what.

[dempseyfire]

Agreed. He had more than one if those losses that kept him from greatness: machen, chuvalo, ellis, etc

....before we all pile on, I do think he had some purely rotten luck, all of those matches apply. He is just short of great, and had he had just a wee bit of that ol "luck of the Irish". We might all (me included) be singin' a different song.

I think he was the one guy that fell just short of Ali and Frazier. And as such...in a class to himself, a notch ahead of Norton.

I would completely disagree he's a notch ahead of Norton. Quarry was overall much more inconsistent than Ken, plus Norton showed he could beat some of the top men (Ali twice) whereas Quarry failed big in both his fights with Ali, Frazier, and Norton himself (even though Quarry was past his best, he lost in one-sided fashion). Norton has that one loss to a 'lesser' in Garcia (who nonetheless was an under-rated fighter at his best) and then only to Foreman at his peak, who would've carved up Quarry as well.

Quarry was a great fighter and had those great upset performances vs the up and comers (Lyle, Shavers) but that he lost to an old Machen, Chuvalo, Ellis etc. can't be dismissed. People also forget he couldn't scrap a win vs the tall lanky Tony Alongi, who was a good boxer but who would've gotten butchered by Norton (I have film of Alongi getting badly hurt and beat up by Chuvalo, only to clutch and hold his way to a gift draw vs the Canadian)
Quarry's legend as 'being the best to never win a title' has at times exceeded reality.

[Sven Tingstrom]

Shortly before the fight Jerry and one of his brothers were horsing around. Jerry was slammed into a pinball machine and ruptured a disk in his back. His dad argued for him to continue to go through with the fight as a cash grab, reasoning that he may never get another shot at the title and Ellis wasnt that great anyway. The problem was Ellis was in his absolute prime at this time which was good enough to give Quarry all kinds of problems. To Quarry's credit he never used it as an excuse for losing the fight and instead stated he fought the wrong fight. He fought the wrong fight but those close to him felt it was because his back limited his mobility and flexibility and hampered his ability to really pressure Ellis. Instead Quarry fought a very patient fight, waiting for Ellis the entire time. Bad strategy against Ellis who was better when allowed to fight at a comfortable pace. As it was he still only lost a majority or split decision if memory serves.

If he never used it as an excuse, how do we know about it?

[BoxBuzz]

Agreed. He had more than one if those losses that kept him from greatness: machen, chuvalo, ellis, etc

....before we all pile on, I do think he had some purely rotten luck, all of those matches apply. He is just short of great, and had he had just a wee bit of that ol "luck of the Irish". We might all (me included) be singin' a different song.

I think he was the one guy that fell just short of Ali and Frazier. And as such...in a class to himself, a notch ahead of Norton.

I would completely disagree he's a notch ahead of Norton. Quarry was overall much more inconsistent than Ken, plus Norton showed he could beat some of the top men (Ali twice) whereas Quarry failed big in both his fights with Ali, Frazier, and Norton himself (even though Quarry was past his best, he lost in one-sided fashion). Norton has that one loss to a 'lesser' in Garcia (who nonetheless was an under-rated fighter at his best) and then only to Foreman at his peak, who would've carved up Quarry as well.

Quarry was a great fighter and had those great upset performances vs the up and comers (Lyle, Shavers) but that he lost to an old Machen, Chuvalo, Ellis etc. can't be dismissed. People also forget he couldn't scrap a win vs the tall lanky Tony Alongi, who was a good boxer but who would've gotten butchered by Norton (I have film of Alongi getting badly hurt and beat up by Chuvalo, only to clutch and hold his way to a gift draw vs the Canadian)
Quarry's legend as 'being the best to never win a title' has at times exceeded reality.

Well that's one way to look at it, or you can listen to Foreman, who has alluded that Quarry is the fighter he didn't want to face. I think Quarry vs Norton at prime would be a win for Quarry. Foreman's lack of confidence regarding a win over Quarry is documented. Doesn't mean he couldn't do it, I happen to think Foreman would likely get the job done.

Just tossin out a counter opinion here. I think a Norton/Frazier fight (had it ever happened) would have been much more one sided than the Quarry affairs.

[klompton]

I think Norton is arguably the most overrated hw of all time. He certainly shouldnt be in the hof. He ducked quarry for years, literally. And only got in based on his win over Ali and a gift over Young. He was damn lucky he was Fraziers sparring partner cause if theyd met Norton would have been embarrassed.

Its one thing to say he was consistent but he was consistent against a lesser class of opponents.

[Giancarlo]

[Ambling Alp]

Agreed. He had more than one if those losses that kept him from greatness: machen, chuvalo, ellis, etc

....before we all pile on, I do think he had some purely rotten luck, all of those matches apply. He is just short of great, and had he had just a wee bit of that ol "luck of the Irish". We might all (me included) be singin' a different song.

I think he was the one guy that fell just short of Ali and Frazier. And as such...in a class to himself, a notch ahead of Norton.

I would completely disagree he's a notch ahead of Norton. Quarry was overall much more inconsistent than Ken, plus Norton showed he could beat some of the top men (Ali twice) whereas Quarry failed big in both his fights with Ali, Frazier, and Norton himself (even though Quarry was past his best, he lost in one-sided fashion). Norton has that one loss to a 'lesser' in Garcia (who nonetheless was an under-rated fighter at his best) and then only to Foreman at his peak, who would've carved up Quarry as well.

Quarry was a great fighter and had those great upset performances vs the up and comers (Lyle, Shavers) but that he lost to an old Machen, Chuvalo, Ellis etc. can't be dismissed. People also forget he couldn't scrap a win vs the tall lanky Tony Alongi, who was a good boxer but who would've gotten butchered by Norton (I have film of Alongi getting badly hurt and beat up by Chuvalo, only to clutch and hold his way to a gift draw vs the Canadian)
Quarry's legend as 'being the best to never win a title' has at times exceeded reality.

This is pretty accurrate. Quarry had some good wins but some key losses. You have have to weigh them against each other as you would with anyone.
there always seems to be an excuse with Quarry. Now he had a back back against Ellis?

Norton also gave a prime Larry Holmes his closest fight in Holmes prime.
How Quarry gets the past his prime excuse against Norton is ridiculaus. First he was only 30. That isn't old for a heavyweight at all. (Norton was actually older.)Yes he had some wear and tear but he should have been pretty close to his best.

As dempseyfire alluded to, it's not like Quarry barely lost. He got whipped in 5 rounds.

The idea that Norton was ducking Quarry is silly. Norton wasn't even a serious contender until 1973. He fought Ali twice that year and Foreman in 1974. He whipped Quarry in 1975.
The bottom line is that Norton's career was not at the Frazier/Foreman/Holmes level. That is clear.
Equally clear is that he was at a level above Quarry.

[klompton]

You show an appalling lack of knowledge of the career trajectories of both Quarry and Norton.

[dempseyfire]

You show an appalling lack of knowledge of the career trajectories of both Quarry and Norton.

No, not at all. Norton was an unknown fighter outside of California before the first Ali fight and Jerry wouldn't have wanted that fight either at that stage as he was making bigger money in New York fighting the likes of Lyle,Shavers, and Frazier. At the same time, Norton post Ali was also going for the biggest money fights he could (Ali rematch, Foreman). So this line about Norton "waiting until Quarry got old" to fight him is pure BS. Less than a year earlier when Quarry fought Frazier a second time he was considered rejuvenated and in the best form he'd been in since the late 60s following his defeats of Lyle and Shavers. It wasn't until after the Norton fight that the "common wisdom" started describing Quarry as far past it for that fight.

As for Quarry stopping Norton in the gym . . so what? Way too much is made of sparring . . Lamon Brewster KO'd Lennox Lewis in sparring as well, but would anyone favor him over Lennox in a real fight? And Foreman saying he was afraid of Quarry, puhleeze . . Foreman is the biggest bullsh!t artist this size of the Equator. He apparently was also scared to death of Frazier and look how that turned out for him.