John L. Sullivan against today's boxers

Newbie · Post by **Newbie** » 12 May 2003, 06:12

How would a prime John L. Sullivan have fared if he were pitted against today's boxers?

1. How would he have done in Toughman?

2. Could he have been competitive against good journeymen?

3. Could he have been competitive against fringe contenders?

4. Could he have been a contender?

5. Could he have had a real shot at winning the title?

This is assuming he stepped into the ring with no knowledge of today's boxing styles.

wouter · Post by **wouter** » 12 May 2003, 06:30

You're guess is as good as mine. Most of us weren't around to see him in action. On second thought, my guess will probaby be slightly better than yours.

Tomato-Can · Post by **Tomato-Can** » 12 May 2003, 09:25

How would John L. Sullvan have fared against Roman Gladiators?

Would he have won?

Would he have been eaten by the lions?

Would he have been eaten by the christians?

How would he have fared against Fred Gladiators?

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 14 May 2003, 01:32

Aw, come on tomato face, stop being such a smart ass. The question is sincere

With no knowledge of today's styles? Not a chance. With it, he might be okay. Obviously a man who was so successful in the bare knuckle era would have had endurance and he was strong, for his size, and had natural punching ability. i think he'd wipe out the toughman guys, as that's pretty much what the London Prize Ring Rules allowed.

Plus...this quote from famous journalist of the time, Nellie Bly:
"He was so fast with his hands that as we walked along he reached out and caught flies, and then let them go."

Shows a kind heart too, doesn't it?

Tomato-Can · Post by **Tomato-Can** » 14 May 2003, 09:34

Jaclem...When I made my post here, I had just got through reading his post in "6 greatest fighters ever" thread. That post kind of makes one question his sincerety.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 14 May 2003, 12:13

tomato puss.....hey, just follow the rule that has made me such a success......never apologize....never explain.

One more thing..I just took the pin out of your voo doo doll.

(winks added because...I don't take any chances any more about people taking these comments seriously)

Tomato-Can · Post by **Tomato-Can** » 14 May 2003, 20:49

Anyone know where I can purchase a tomato emoticon?

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 19 Sep 2005, 21:15

I think it's time get some answers on some questions that have been left lingering for years. How is it this has been ignored?

theone · Post by **theone** » 19 Sep 2005, 21:51

No chance whatsoever. Even Braddock would have beaten him easily.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 19 Sep 2005, 22:08

Obviously no one knows the answer to this question, since there are no films of John L fighting. However, I am continually surprised to read the posters on this board who refer to Sullivan as only a bare knuckle fighter. He was the first gloved HW champion, and defended this title, as well as his LPR title for many years. In fact, John L was a big proponent of the Marquis of Queensberry rules and could rightfully be called the father of modern heavyweight boxing.

Always on the level. John L. Sullivan

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 19 Sep 2005, 22:09

braddock would have got his ass kicked if he fought john l sullivan in a toughman fight or bareknuckle fight. sullivan was one of the strongest heavyweights with great stamina and had a great punch.

no doubt, if he learned how to box under queensbury rules (properly) he would have dominated the modern heavweights IMO.

he was big, strong, could punch, just didnt know the rules or boxing techniques.

John Ruiz DQ 1 John L Sullivan. - ruiz decides to clinch and wreslte with him and john l hip tosses him out of the ring breaking ruiz shoulder and causing sullivan to lose by disqualification

theone · Post by **theone** » 19 Sep 2005, 22:18

Braddock would have beat him in any kind of fight. sullivan was way too primative. How did Gentleman Jim Corbett beat himand revolutionize heayweight boxing? By actually using lateral movement and jabbing at the same time!
Sullivan wouldnt survive happy hour in a new york pub on saints Patricks day.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 19 Sep 2005, 22:19

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:... no doubt, if he learned how to box under queensbury rules (properly) he would have dominated the modern heavweights IMO.

A wild thought. Perhaps he actually did know how to fight "properly".

In the 1950's no less an authority than Nat Fleischer called John L. Sullivan the greatest of all HW champions. While Fleischer did not see John L. fight in an actual competitive match, he had seen John L. spar and also knew many of the early fighters from the Sullivan era, and had personally seen all of the other championsin action, so he certainly was more knowledgeable than most of us.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 19 Sep 2005, 23:34

and nat fleischer is certainly more BIAS than all of us.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 20 Sep 2005, 06:11

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:and nat fleischer is certainly more BIAS than all of us.

BIAS? What are you talking about?

barry · Post by **barry** » 20 Sep 2005, 08:57

>>>How did Gentleman Jim Corbett beat himand revolutionize heayweight boxing? By actually using lateral movement and jabbing at the same time!<<<

How did Corbett beat Sullivan...he did like many...Corbett come around at the very end of Sullivan's career and at a time when Sullivan had taken completely to "drink" and could care less about training and beat the old man silly! In his prime, Sullivan could do just as he said, "Lick any Son-of-a-Bitch in the House." Whether he could have dominated current styles...probably...I know Corbett could because all Corbett really had was a very, very good jab and straight right and left hook, but he used the jab very much and as I have said before...Winky Wright most recently showed us that a good jab and straight right is all anyone needs to beat the very best fighters in the world. If anything today's style is a lot lazier and the fighters are not in shape half of the time. You should pick up a copy of "John L. Sullivan and his America." It's the very best book on Sullivan that is out and it was researched very well!

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 20 Sep 2005, 09:01

barry wrote:>>>How did Gentleman Jim Corbett beat himand revolutionize heayweight boxing? By actually using lateral movement and jabbing at the same time!<<<

How did Corbett beat Sullivan...he did like many...Corbett come around at the very end of Sullivan's career and at a time when Sullivan had taken completely to "drink" and could care less about training and beat the old man silly! In his prime, Sullivan could do just as he said, "Lick any Son-of-a-Bitch in the House." Whether he could have dominated current styles...probably...I know Corbett could because all Corbett really had was a very, very good jab and straight right and left hook, but he used the jab very much and as I have said before...Winky Wright most recently showed us that a good jab and straight right is all anyone needs to beat the very best fighters in the world. If anything today's style is a lot lazier and the fighters are not in shape half of the time. You should pick up a copy of "John L. Sullivan and his America." It's the very best book on Sullivan that is out and it was researched very well!

Thank you. You certainly know your boxing, and you are a gentleman and a scholar.

Always on the level. John L. Sullivan

theone · Post by **theone** » 20 Sep 2005, 09:33

Corbett shocked everyone by not standing in front of Sullivan and jabbing as he danced around. sullivan at his best had never seen such a thing. Heavyweights lagged way behind the smaller weight classes when it came to developing technique and physical conditioning. the heavyweights didnt really catch up until long after Sullivan and corbett were long out of the game. If some one stepped into the ring fighting the way they did it would look redicules.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 20 Sep 2005, 09:55

theone wrote:Corbett shocked everyone by not standing in front of Sullivan and jabbing as he danced around. sullivan at his best had never seen such a thing. Heavyweights lagged way behind the smaller weight classes when it came to developing technique and physical conditioning. the heavyweights didnt really catch up until long after Sullivan and corbett were long out of the game. If some one stepped into the ring fighting the way they did it would look redicules.

This sounds like one of the retellings of the Corbett-Sullivan fight that you would read in a kids book. I suggest that you read one of the actual press recaps of the fight, as well as other Sullivan fights. To suggest that in his many fights to that point Sullivan had not been confronted by a fighter who used a jab and movement is pretty naive.

theone · Post by **theone** » 20 Sep 2005, 10:02

What is naive is actual believing sullivan could compete with modern heavyweights. todays middle weights would be too much for him.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 20 Sep 2005, 10:06

theone wrote:What is naive is actual believing sullivan could compete with modern heavyweights. todays middle weights would be too much for him.

Yes, of course you are correct. It probably wouldn't be very competitive.

barry · Post by **barry** » 20 Sep 2005, 11:55

>>>What is naive is actual believing sullivan could compete with modern heavyweights. todays middle weights would be too much for him.<<<

I could see a few fighters of today lasting maybe 15 rounds, but very few...try 50 or 75 rounds...Sure a fighter today might dance around doing the electric slide for 10 rounds, but after that, when he is completely gassed with no energy the old-timers had just gotten warmed up...and the new generation would be soundly put to sleep between the 10th and 20th rounds...then I guess it would be the "electric slide" bunch that loked ridiculous!

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 20 Sep 2005, 12:04

barry wrote:>>>What is naive is actual believing sullivan could compete with modern heavyweights. todays middle weights would be too much for him.<<<

I could see a few fighters of today lasting maybe 15 rounds, but very few...try 50 or 75 rounds...Sure a fighter today might dance around doing the electric slide for 10 rounds, but after that, when he is completely gassed with no energy the old-timers had just gotten warmed up...and the new generation would be soundly put to sleep between the 10th and 20th rounds...then I guess it would be the "electric slide" bunch that loked ridiculous!

barry, best to let this one go. His comment --

"Corbett shocked everyone by not standing in front of Sullivan and jabbing as he danced around. sullivan at his best had never seen such a thing."

Certainly sounds like a quote from a kids book about the Sullivan/Corbett fight that I borrowed from the library years ago for my young son.

However, since no HW's from long ago could actually fight, it would be interesting to hear from theone exactly when the HW's learned how to fight.

theone · Post by **theone** » 20 Sep 2005, 12:25

those old time heavyweights fought at an extremely slow pace, those forty round fights werent barn burners by any means. Those fighters were not conditioned like the fighters of today. Corbett for example got knockout out by one punch to the midsection! Overtime as fighters took to fighting more frequently they started developing new techniques until it evolved into the martial art that it is now.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 20 Sep 2005, 12:42

theone wrote:... Overtime as fighters took to fighting more frequently they started developing new techniques until it evolved into the martial art that it is now.

Took to fighting more frequently?

What do you base this comment on?

BTW -- who was the first HW champion that had magically evolved into a real fighter? I guess this evolution has led us to the Klitschkos?

John L. Sullivan against today's boxers

John L. Sullivan against today's boxers

re

Re: re

re

Re: re