Modern Day Bare Knucklers

[HomicideHenry]

I think there is a conscience effort by people to continue reverse racism because most bkb men are travellers. True, most men who fight elaborate stories, but you asked for 'proof of the stories', so I gave you sources. You call them fake and lies, that is your opinion. Tell you what go to the GRAPES in Appleby in Cumbria, and tell the people there that the Rooney/Gorman bout never happened; and I could garuntee you that if you made it out with both ears and eyes you would be lucky. Find Henry Francis, and tell him that he didn't fight Gorman and gave Gorman two broken cheek bones and a broken nose, and let's see if Francis don't head butt you thirty times in succession. As for who some of these men are, why don't you look them up yourself, BoxRec does have links to every amateur record there is; John Mulroy was a good amateur from Ireland. As for the Wolfman and others, go to Staffordshire and ask around for him. You will never know, unless you track down these people yourselves. Ask John Fury, Tyson Fury, whether or not Bartley Gorman was one helluva fighter; or say that Gorman was a fake and a fraud; you probably will get your eyeball ripped out of your socket like that one asshole in Appleby who fought Fury a few years ago. No, these men may not be on the same league or anywhere close to the gloved elite fighters, but to say they cant fight or they are all telling fairytales is a crock. Ask Jimmy Stockins, if Henry Francis isn't the real deal, and Gorman fought Francis. Tell Bobby Gunn, that he is a fake and a fraud too while you're at it, even though he fought Tomasz Adamek and James Toney for alphabet titles; and tell the Hilton's that they are frauds too, when it is common knowledge that they were top bkb men as well.

You really don't get this.

Nobody's saying the fight with John Rooney didn't happen. I'm just saying, who was John Rooney that anyone should make a fuss about beating him? And I'm sure Jimmy Stockins would say Henry Armstrong was the Real Deal compared to Jimmy Stockins, but why should Jimmy Stockins be any sort of measure? He's never fought anyone of any note either. It's a closed circle. Bobby Gunn we can judge, from what Enzo Macarinelli did to him. McLean and Shaw we can judge, because Cliff Field was in the mix. Sykes we can judge because he had a decent pro career. The only gypsy we can judge is John Fury, and he doesn't seem to have been involved in any of this endless round of fighting one another, except for that brawl in a car auction recently when he gouged out the eye of a man nobody has ever heard of.

How many people have you spoken to who ever saw Bartley Gorman fight? In fact, how much information do you have on Bartley Gorman that doesn't come out of his book? It's funny that now we have the technology freely available to record these fights, the great fighters of yesteryear have been replaced by a succession of semi-competent amateurs of very little real skill.

EDIT: Oh, and incidentally, I used to live in Staffordshire. I can't recall anyone ever mentioning the Wolfman. I suggest that if you were to go to Stoke-on-Trent and ask around randomly about "The Staffordshire Wolfman" you might start to get a sense of just how 'well-known' these characters actually are.

I've talked to many gypsies from Ireland and England on Gorman; different clans and breeds have their own take on him. Some say he was the best man to strip off, others say that he wasn't fit to fight McGinley, Rooney, etc. Different Gorman's for different people. My ex finace, who was a Maguire, and her family used to talk Gorman up quite a bit. Others I have talked to, consider him to not be so great. In the end its the same cock and bullshit that happens on this forum every day with gloved fighters like Ali and Marciano; some say Marciano's the greatest cus of the 49-0, others say Ali, etc. To me there isn't much difference because opinions are like ass holes every one has them.

As for the close knit grouping, that is true, most non-travellers dont know who any of these people are, nor will they ever know, and most don't give a shit because they look down on gypsies the same way the Nazi party did when they slaughtered 500,000 of them. Even Gorman admits in his own book, most gypsies hadn't seen even him fight; his reputation was known. The biggest match he would of had was against Johnny Mellor, but the police shut that down and over 1,500 gypsies came to see that match. These weren't big name people, nor were their careers well known, and for the most part Gorman fought other gypsies. Among gypsies, they are supermen; among gorgers, just another guy walking down the street.

As for the questioning of who was John Rooney, and do we really care, and other fighters, is concerned. Let's put it in another scope; let's look at the countless amateur boxers around the world. Most of them will never be known, hell most of their fights will never be eevn documented. Some of the best fighters I ever seen personally were what I called 'gym fighters' boxing smokers, non documented matches. They weren't pros, etc. You could say to an extent, that is the same as the world as the bare knuckle world has been since the 1860's. Of course I would have loved to have seen them on film to gauge them, to critique them, etc. Unfortunately we can't. BUT I can say this much, if even half the stories are true, Gorman was something special. And that goes for many others as well.

[Mukel]

Im sure in Jimmy Stockins book he claims Henry Francis and him were meant to fight but Francis didnt turn up.

They all have different stories, I read Paddy Dohertys book and he mentions several top gypsy fighters but never once mentions Gorman.

You read Lenny Mcleans book and he is undefeated, yet its recorded he lost to several men.

You have tonnes of hard men characters from Gorman, Shaw, Mclean, Gluckstead, Yates, Welch, Fury, Stockins, Quinn-Mcdonagh, Gunn, Cockerill etc.

All claim to be this and that, but hardly any of them fought each other.

There is never any consistancy.

As for travellers, you only have to look at the amateur boxing scene for proof that a lot of these bare knuckle boxers are more than just pub brawlers, a lot of them have good boxing backgrounds.

[HomicideHenry]

Im sure in Jimmy Stockins book he claims Henry Francis and him were meant to fight but Francis didnt turn up.

They all have different stories, I read Paddy Dohertys book and he mentions several top gypsy fighters but never once mentions Gorman.

You read Lenny Mcleans book and he is undefeated, yet its recorded he lost to several men.

You have tonnes of hard men characters from Gorman, Shaw, Mclean, Gluckstead, Yates, Welch, Fury, Stockins, Quinn-Mcdonagh, Gunn, Cockerill etc.

All claim to be this and that, but hardly any of them fought each other.

There is never any consistancy.

As for travellers, you only have to look at the amateur boxing scene for proof that a lot of these bare knuckle boxers are more than just pub brawlers, a lot of them have good boxing backgrounds.

That's what I was trying to say all along. I aint saying there isnt exaggerations, or outright lies, but it does seem every traveller has his stories. Like Gorman mentioned once in his book, that Joe Joyce claims he fought Gorman (and lost), but Bartley claims they never did meet. John Frankham claims it was Gorman who never showed up to fight, Bartley claims they made several dates to meet but either he wasnt able to make it or that Frankham wasnt able to either. Etc, etc, etc.

[HomicideHenry]

http://www.boxing-monthly.co.uk/content/0506/three.htm

^^^Link on Tony Doherty, whose father Simon was a top BKB man in the 1970s and 1980s, and his grandfather Barney Doherty was the number one BKB man in Ireland during the reign of Uriah Burton. He was to meet Burton in a 'death match', and was on a train to port so he could travel to Wales; unfortunately he was murdered under mysterious circumstances by British soldiers stationed in Ireland while on that train.

[Giancarlo]

http://www.boxing-monthly.co.uk/content/0506/three.htm

^^^Link on Tony Doherty, whose father Simon was a top BKB man in the 1970s and 1980s, and his grandfather Barney Doherty was the number one BKB man in Ireland during the reign of Uriah Burton. He was to meet Burton in a 'death match', and was on a train to port so he could travel to Wales; unfortunately he was murdered under mysterious circumstances by British soldiers stationed in Ireland while on that train.

Rufus, this is getting dafter and dafter.

Speaking of which, I saw a bizarre post you made in the Records forum that made me laugh :

My nickname is no longer Homicide Henry, it is 'Gypsy Henry Robbins'

What's that nonsense all about?

[HomicideHenry]

Well because my mother's side does have that Rom heritage, and I am involved with the travellers anyways, my mother's maiden name is Robbins, my middle name is Henry. It is my perrogative anyways to chose whatever name I wish to use. And how is this thread getting 'dafter and dafter' when there is proof of the events? You're just racist towards travellers; its too bad the nations do not recognise travellers as their own race, the same as blacks and hispanics, because when that day comes I hope people like you can be hit with a hate crime report on your record.

[Giancarlo]

Well because my mother's side does have that Rom heritage, and I am involved with the travellers anyways, my mother's maiden name is Robbins, my middle name is Henry. It is my perrogative anyways to chose whatever name I wish to use. And how is this thread getting 'dafter and dafter' when there is proof of the events? You're just racist towards travellers; its too bad the nations do not recognise travellers as their own race, the same as blacks and hispanics, because when that day comes I hope people like you can be hit with a hate crime report on your record.

Rufus, you obviously don't know anything about the travellers of Ireland if you think they are romani people.

[gp.]

Well because my mother's side does have that Rom heritage, and I am involved with the travellers anyways, my mother's maiden name is Robbins, my middle name is Henry. It is my perrogative anyways to chose whatever name I wish to use. And how is this thread getting 'dafter and dafter' when there is proof of the events? You're just racist towards travellers; its too bad the nations do not recognise travellers as their own race, the same as blacks and hispanics, because when that day comes I hope people like you can be hit with a hate crime report on your record.

The only thing there's proof of there is that Tony Doherty was a decent prospect in the legitimate ring in 2005, which is when that article is from. The rest - the bare knucklers, the 'death match' and the assassination - is simply unfounded rumour, again.

The racism accusations are laughable. Nobody's saying there aren't decent gypsy fighters..there are and they turn pro, like the Furys, or Henry Wharton, or Tony Doherty above. It's the ones who can't make it who generally stay in the bare knuckle arena where their shortcomings are less likely to be exposed and they can make all sorts of outlandish claims about who they've fought and beaten and challenged as there's never any concrete evidence of anything.

Incidentally are you going to be billed as Rufus "Gypsy Henry Robbins" Defibaugh? Bit of a mouthful, isn't it?

[HomicideHenry]

Well because my mother's side does have that Rom heritage, and I am involved with the travellers anyways, my mother's maiden name is Robbins, my middle name is Henry. It is my perrogative anyways to chose whatever name I wish to use. And how is this thread getting 'dafter and dafter' when there is proof of the events? You're just racist towards travellers; its too bad the nations do not recognise travellers as their own race, the same as blacks and hispanics, because when that day comes I hope people like you can be hit with a hate crime report on your record.

The only thing there's proof of there is that Tony Doherty was a decent prospect in the legitimate ring in 2005, which is when that article is from. The rest - the bare knucklers, the 'death match' and the assassination - is simply unfounded rumour, again.

The racism accusations are laughable. Nobody's saying there aren't decent gypsy fighters..there are and they turn pro, like the Furys, or Henry Wharton, or Tony Doherty above. It's the ones who can't make it who generally stay in the bare knuckle arena where their shortcomings are less likely to be exposed and they can make all sorts of outlandish claims about who they've fought and beaten and challenged as there's never any concrete evidence of anything.

Incidentally are you going to be billed as Rufus "Gypsy Henry Robbins" Defibaugh? Bit of a mouthful, isn't it?

Just 'Gypsy' Henry Robbins

[HomicideHenry]

In the words of Henry Cooper:


"My grandad George Cooper was half Irish, he came from the Elephant and Castle, which was a pretty tough area in them days. In them days, they had some railway arches, where the old railway was built. Underneath them they had a horse repository, where all the farmers used to come up and buy and sell horses. He could run his hands over a horse, and look at the teeth and tell the guy 'Well, dont touch it'. Naturally in a place like that it was easy to get into fights by looking at anyone. And my grandfather used to love it. He used to fight twenty-round bare knuckle fights up on Blackheath. He met the same guy there for three months. They fought every other Sunday and they used to put down a hat and then the public just threw in whatever they thought they were worth. They used to call (the donations) nobbins in them days.... Jack Johnson was threatening to come over after being slung out of America because he took a white bird across the state line. So he came to Europe and he threatened he was coming to the National Sporting Club. They got my grandad on the door to stop him. Thank god Johnson never showed up."


This was the same George Cooper mentioned in the Bartley Gorman book of the early 20th century, is Henry Cooper a liar too? Just curious.

[gp.]

In the words of Henry Cooper:


"My grandad George Cooper was half Irish, he came from the Elephant and Castle, which was a pretty tough area in them days. In them days, they had some railway arches, where the old railway was built. Underneath them they had a horse repository, where all the farmers used to come up and buy and sell horses. He could run his hands over a horse, and look at the teeth and tell the guy 'Well, dont touch it'. Naturally in a place like that it was easy to get into fights by looking at anyone. And my grandfather used to love it. He used to fight twenty-round bare knuckle fights up on Blackheath. He met the same guy there for three months. They fought every other Sunday and they used to put down a hat and then the public just threw in whatever they thought they were worth. They used to call (the donations) nobbins in them days.... Jack Johnson was threatening to come over after being slung out of America because he took a white bird across the state line. So he came to Europe and he threatened he was coming to the National Sporting Club. They got my grandad on the door to stop him. Thank god Johnson never showed up."


This was the same George Cooper mentioned in the Bartley Gorman book of the early 20th century, is Henry Cooper a liar too? Just curious.

Lying about what? That he had a grandfather who had fights with people? What did Bartley Gorman say about him?

[yiddo14]

What a strange story!!!

Why did you bring it up? Something to do with Bartley? Cooper snr was half Irish ( again, not following that one! )?

[gp.]

I think the problem here, Henry, is that you don't understand the difference between offering evidence of a claim and offering evidence of what is claimed. Nobody is saying that you are making this up. We know you're just repeating stuff you've heard elsewhere. We just don't think there's any truth in 99% of what is being claimed elsewhere, and all you keep showing is links to people making the claims.

[Bladder]

This was the same George Cooper mentioned in the Bartley Gorman book of the early 20th century, is Henry Cooper a liar too? Just curious.

Is this the same Henry Cooper who for years kept saying how Ali/Clay got an extra 5 minutes in the interval after he floored him heavily in their first fight as they had to look for a change of glove?

Not sure I'd take for gospel what he says!

[HomicideHenry]

This was the same George Cooper mentioned in the Bartley Gorman book of the early 20th century, is Henry Cooper a liar too? Just curious.

Is this the same Henry Cooper who for years kept saying how Ali/Clay got an extra 5 minutes in the interval after he floored him heavily in their first fight as they had to look for a change of glove?

Not sure I'd take for gospel what he says!

Now out of anybody here, you put up the one bit of circumstancial evidence that says Cooper was exaggerating; that "five minutes" rest at best was just an extra minute.

[HomicideHenry]

Found a picture of the legendary Bartley Gorman working with John Fury, before Fury faced off against Henry Akinwande in the British Heavyweight Title elimination series.

[dennisflint]

Hi,

The book 'Sweet Agony' by Paul Sykes is very hard to find and going for a packet. But you can now buy it on Kindle download, save you shelling out:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0165PQPKW

There's also a Facebook page about the book with some extra information and videos:

https://www.facebook.com/sweetagonypaulsykes

Cheers

Flinty!

[CiganoBoxer]

Hi,

The book 'Sweet Agony' by Paul Sykes is very hard to find and going for a packet. But you can now buy it on Kindle download, save you shelling out:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0165PQPKW

There's also a Facebook page about the book with some extra information and videos:

https://www.facebook.com/sweetagonypaulsykes

Cheers

Flinty!

Why post this ?! ?
Paul Sykes never fought BKB at that time or unless my memory serves me right when he retired from boxing !?
My dad tells me Bartley Gorman was the man at the time as well as frank ham ?
, not this chilly nutter Sykes
.

[Ilya Muromets]

This was the same George Cooper mentioned in the Bartley Gorman book of the early 20th century, is Henry Cooper a liar too? Just curious.

Is this the same Henry Cooper who for years kept saying how Ali/Clay got an extra 5 minutes in the interval after he floored him heavily in their first fight as they had to look for a change of glove?

Not sure I'd take for gospel what he says!

It's true, Clay-Ali did get approximately that length of time between rounds, and it is a crime that Cooper has not retroactively been declared the winner of that fight, especially when he was still living so he could have appreciated it. What the media has now deceitfully done is spliced all available film footage of the fight (does unedited footage exist anywhere?) to completely eliminate all the between rounds shenanigans - and then I watched it on ESPN Classic and not only did they splice the rounds together but they didn't even say one single word about what occurred between the rounds!

And off topic, but speaking of boxing and Kindle, this Australian feller, the Boxer Hobo, is one of boxing's most eccentric and colorful. He's written several books. They are either free or 99 cents on Kindle. His website:

http://boxerhobo.blogspot.com/

[Eddy]

I think Lenny McClean was quality. There's new clips of him on Youtube giving interviews; one with Danny Baker, one with Little John, and Gary Buswell. Lenny had buckets of charisma.

Say what you want about levels, the fight footage of him is very impressive. Some of those KOs he dished out were awesome. There was nothing wrong with his punching technique at all.

I'd rather watch Lenny's old clips then say youtube footage of Ricky Burns or Frankie Gavins fights, ...even Mayweather's zzzzzzzzz

[Counter-puncher]

Well because my mother's side does have that Rom heritage, and I am involved with the travellers anyways, my mother's maiden name is Robbins, my middle name is Henry. It is my perrogative anyways to chose whatever name I wish to use. And how is this thread getting 'dafter and dafter' when there is proof of the events? You're just racist towards travellers; its too bad the nations do not recognise travellers as their own race, the same as blacks and hispanics, because when that day comes I hope people like you can be hit with a hate crime report on your record.

Classic

[ClivePatrickLyons]

smokin bert cooper fought joe savage who had 42 bare knuckle contests with all ko's in first round, and man he got embaresed by cooper

See ya don't beat donkey's then race horse's

[Matt the Master]

Rufus "Homicide Henry" "Gypsy Robbins" Defibaugh.....A part of me is sorry to say this, but yet the biggest part of me doesn't give a fornicate, so I will just come out and say it !

I have met countless fools over the years (makes me sound old, I'm only 32 !) who have some sort of idol worship of Gypsy people, and who claim to be either full or part Gypsy (depending on how brave they are feeling) and REAL Gypsies wether they are Romany Gypsies or Irish Travellers, to know the difference between those that claim to be, and those who are "the real deal" if you like. You Henry (Your self titled name is too much of a mouthfull to keep typing) are the former, a fake at worst and a fantasist at best ! All of these "proofs and evidences" you have given about Gypsy fighters are clearly what you have read in books (Bartley Gormans book mainly) and while I dont personaly refute the accounts they put forth, I know enough about Gypsy folk to know that the accounts can be highly susceptible to bias, as the Gypsies sense of pride is legendary, and no Gypsy will ever admit to being inferior to another fighter from another clan. I myself know Gypsies from my earliest childhood, I went to school with some, boxing gyms with others, some through later business ventures, but it's just a fact of my life that I was lucky enough to know some great people from ALL walks of life, Gypsy folk and settled folk, but I have never felt the need like you to try to be someone who I am not, and am perfectly content to just be ME, a man who comes from outside of the Gypsy community. I suppose you might try to accuse me of being "racist towards Gypsies and Travellers" ! Well stop right there. I bet you my last pound that I personally know of more Gypsy folk that I can call friends than a complete fantasist who tries to copy but never will be.

How is your "feud" with Bobby Gunn going ? He sent me a link to your one and only professional fight...........

[HomicideHenry]

Rufus "Homicide Henry" "Gypsy Robbins" Defibaugh.....A part of me is sorry to say this, but yet the biggest part of me doesn't give a eff, so I will just come out and say it !

I have met countless fools over the years (makes me sound old, I'm only 32 !) who have some sort of idol worship of Gypsy people, and who claim to be either full or part Gypsy (depending on how brave they are feeling) and REAL Gypsies wether they are Romany Gypsies or Irish Travellers, to know the difference between those that claim to be, and those who are "the real deal" if you like. You Henry (Your self titled name is too much of a mouthfull to keep typing) are the former, a fake at worst and a fantasist at best ! All of these "proofs and evidences" you have given about Gypsy fighters are clearly what you have read in books (Bartley Gormans book mainly) and while I dont personaly refute the accounts they put forth, I know enough about Gypsy folk to know that the accounts can be highly susceptible to bias, as the Gypsies sense of pride is legendary, and no Gypsy will ever admit to being inferior to another fighter from another clan. I myself know Gypsies from my earliest childhood, I went to school with some, boxing gyms with others, some through later business ventures, but it's just a fact of my life that I was lucky enough to know some great people from ALL walks of life, Gypsy folk and settled folk, but I have never felt the need like you to try to be someone who I am not, and am perfectly content to just be ME, a man who comes from outside of the Gypsy community. I suppose you might try to accuse me of being "racist towards Gypsies and Travellers" ! Well stop right there. I bet you my last pound that I personally know of more Gypsy folk that I can call friends than a complete fantasist who tries to copy but never will be.

How is your "feud" with Bobby Gunn going ? He sent me a link to your one and only professional fight...........

Ahhhh.... another man under Gunn's pay roll..... why dont you tell your boss, to have "junior" fight me in an mma cage?

And I aint reading all that babble. It is what it is. The fact you mentioned a former friend, turn bastard turncoat, shows your intentions. The man is a fraud, always has been. And you can tell Robert Logan Williamson I said that. I know more on his bunch than he even realizes. What does he think I've been doing since our split? Sitting on my ass? Nah. Been collecting information.

[Tomasino]

Rufus "Homicide Henry" "Gypsy Robbins" Defibaugh.....A part of me is sorry to say this, but yet the biggest part of me doesn't give a eff, so I will just come out and say it !

I have met countless fools over the years (makes me sound old, I'm only 32 !) who have some sort of idol worship of Gypsy people, and who claim to be either full or part Gypsy (depending on how brave they are feeling) and REAL Gypsies wether they are Romany Gypsies or Irish Travellers, to know the difference between those that claim to be, and those who are "the real deal" if you like. You Henry (Your self titled name is too much of a mouthfull to keep typing) are the former, a fake at worst and a fantasist at best ! All of these "proofs and evidences" you have given about Gypsy fighters are clearly what you have read in books (Bartley Gormans book mainly) and while I dont personaly refute the accounts they put forth, I know enough about Gypsy folk to know that the accounts can be highly susceptible to bias, as the Gypsies sense of pride is legendary, and no Gypsy will ever admit to being inferior to another fighter from another clan. I myself know Gypsies from my earliest childhood, I went to school with some, boxing gyms with others, some through later business ventures, but it's just a fact of my life that I was lucky enough to know some great people from ALL walks of life, Gypsy folk and settled folk, but I have never felt the need like you to try to be someone who I am not, and am perfectly content to just be ME, a man who comes from outside of the Gypsy community. I suppose you might try to accuse me of being "racist towards Gypsies and Travellers" ! Well stop right there. I bet you my last pound that I personally know of more Gypsy folk that I can call friends than a complete fantasist who tries to copy but never will be.

How is your "feud" with Bobby Gunn going ? He sent me a link to your one and only professional fight...........

Ahhhh.... another man under Gunn's pay roll..... why dont you tell your boss, to have "junior" fight me in an mma cage?

And I aint reading all that babble. It is what it is. The fact you mentioned a former friend, turn bastard turncoat, shows your intentions. The man is a fraud, always has been. And you can tell Robert Logan Williamson I said that. I know more on his bunch than he even realizes. What does he think I've been doing since our split? Sitting on my ass? Nah. Been collecting information.

Have you been training MMA Rufus?