Ali and racism

[thepocketrocket]

OK, Ali was part of the Nation of Islam who let's say, didn't have great views on white people.

Then, in the 70's, he pointed out that he had no real problem with Apartheid, he just wished the South African blacks got treated better (more of a seperate but equal theory)

By 1996 he has Parkinsons, is lighting the Olympic torch and is seen as a hero.

My question is, had Ali sofened his stance by the time he got ill? Or did he get ill, start shaking, withdraw from making public appearences/statements ect and then benefit from positive revisionism??

Genuine open question as this is never rally spoken about

[deadpan]

There is more rose tinted revisionism about Ali than any figure in sporting history.

Some of the views he spouted about white people displayed a Sugar Clay Jones Junior level of ignorance.

He used a vile illogical racism on Frazier and was happy to take the millions from a hated dictator who subjugated his country.

Plus the 'no vietcong...' quote is fictitious. And his poetry was written for him.

Hell of a fighter though.

[dondada]

If I was born a black man, where Ali was, and when Ali was, white people wouldn't be my favourites either. This isn't excusing some of his more outrageous statements, of course.

[funso banjo baby]

Boxrec and idiots

[thepocketrocket]

Boxrec and idiots

Explain????

[Bronxbull666]

Ali was interviewed by Sir David Frost twice. First time (late 60s early 70s at least), Ali claimed that the Bible said that all white men are devils. Frost told Ali it was nonsense, which it was! But, the second time around, Ali was really ill, but said he was wrong about that!

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

OK, Ali was part of the Nation of Islam who let's say, didn't have great views on white people.

Then, in the 70's, he pointed out that he had no real problem with Apartheid, he just wished the South African blacks got treated better (more of a seperate but equal theory)

By 1996 he has Parkinsons, is lighting the Olympic torch and is seen as a hero.

My question is, had Ali sofened his stance by the time he got ill? Or did he get ill, start shaking, withdraw from making public appearences/statements ect and then benefit from positive revisionism??

Genuine open question as this is never rally spoken about

Where he grew up - black boys got lynched for looking at white women. His world view was formed around that and thus understandable in my opinion.

He said though when he went to Mecca in 1966 and saw white Muslims with their black and brown brothers that changed his view a lot.

Around that time, the Radio Times refused to publish a picture of a white man marrying a black woman for their front page due to a huge backlash from their readers - what was their view formed around? Not of any of their own getting murdered thats for sure.

People and views change - Thank God!

[JDC]

Sometimes through foul means, Ali helped highlight disequalities. Maybe it was all through intention. Or maybe he just bumbled his way towards success as he, himself developed a more rounded view. I'd imagine almost all of his early influences were repressed black individuals.

[NazNaci1]

Many of us, initially, are shaped by our surroundings. That's just the way it is. Sometimes in a positive way and other times, negative. Being Ali, growing up where he did in the time he did, to not harbour any negative feelings toward 'whites' would be damned difficult.

The fact Ali was able to reconcile and realise that not all white folk were the same, is commendable. There are young people around today who harbour racist feelings towards blacks and / or whites, for no other reason than old, bitter, hate filled people overloading them with rage. It does take a special kind of person to be able to change. There are many out there that have, Ali is just one.

Unfortunately there are still not enough.

[bripez]

There is more rose tinted revisionism about Ali than any figure in sporting history.

Hell of a fighter though.

I agree with the above.

One of the best ever athletes, never mind boxer - however, don't forget he was also a racist, sexist, mysoginist wife beater.

[funso banjo baby]

aaaanywaaay.....

has anyone seen that comedy New Girl?

[Andypittcov]

He changed some of his beliefs over a 30 year span, there isn't anything surprising about that.

Like others have said its no wonder he felt the way he did back in the 60's. I believe he once ordered a cheeseburger in his local diner and was refused service and thrown out, despite the fact that he literally had an Olympic gold medal dangling from his neck that he'd just won for USA.

[BoxRob]

There is more rose tinted revisionism about Ali than any figure in sporting history.

Hell of a fighter though.

I agree with the above.

One of the best ever athletes, never mind boxer - however, don't forget he was also a racist, sexist, mysoginist wife beater.

When he didn't trust white people that was based on his personal experiance. I wouldnt say he was 'racist' having a white man training him. And what have you got to back up that he was a wife beater?

[dondada]

A sensitive subject and a complex issue. I can understand Ali being anti-White in his youth given the treatment that he and other Black people received. But, like many others, over time, his views developed and changed. However, the thing that really disturbed me was the way he goaded and humiliated Joe Frazier.

Obviously, Frazier was a hell of a fighter but he wasn't the most articulate guy and Ali took advantage of this. Calling Frazier an uncle Tom and an ugly gorilla went too far for me. Nasty and bullying. I'm afraid it has affected the way I view Ali.

One of my favourite quotes is when Frazier said he wished Ali had fallen into the Olympic flame when he lit it at Atlanta. Just a reminder that his bitterness was still there.

[Scrap]

Remember taking a Bus from New Orleans to Lafayette. Went to the Back of the Bus, where Blacks were Sat. They said to me, Hey man youre not supposed to sit here, I said, do you mind, they all smiled, said No. So I sat down, and got looks from the Whites on the Bus. Thought F==k them and had a very pleasant journey and a great natter with them. That was in the 80s.

[Bricks]

OK, Ali was part of the Nation of Islam who let's say, didn't have great views on white people.

Then, in the 70's, he pointed out that he had no real problem with Apartheid, he just wished the South African blacks got treated better (more of a seperate but equal theory)

By 1996 he has Parkinsons, is lighting the Olympic torch and is seen as a hero.

My question is, had Ali sofened his stance by the time he got ill? Or did he get ill, start shaking, withdraw from making public appearences/statements ect and then benefit from positive revisionism??

Genuine open question as this is never rally spoken about

Your knowledge sees to be severely lacking........here is how it actually happened.

Ali grew up in the deep south in an era of racial segragation. So he suffered racism as u can imagine.
After winning the world title he embraced the Nation of Islam (who are not actually a branch of mainstream Islam rather a black power extremist group). Ali for a while was their mouthpiece.
Until in 1974 Ali embraced mainstream Islam after doing the HAJJ muslim pilgrimage to Mecca. he than publically rejected the nation of islam and all forms of racism..............fast fwd to 1996 and Ali has spent all his life being a charming, loved man appealing to all creeds and races.....thats why he got to light the Olympic flame.

[thepocketrocket]

OK, Ali was part of the Nation of Islam who let's say, didn't have great views on white people.

Then, in the 70's, he pointed out that he had no real problem with Apartheid, he just wished the South African blacks got treated better (more of a seperate but equal theory)

By 1996 he has Parkinsons, is lighting the Olympic torch and is seen as a hero.

My question is, had Ali sofened his stance by the time he got ill? Or did he get ill, start shaking, withdraw from making public appearences/statements ect and then benefit from positive revisionism??

Genuine open question as this is never rally spoken about

Your knowledge sees to be severely lacking........here is how it actually happened.

Ali grew up in the deep south in an era of racial segragation. So he suffered racism as u can imagine.
After winning the world title he embraced the Nation of Islam (who are not actually a branch of mainstream Islam rather a black power extremist group). Ali for a while was their mouthpiece.
Until in 1974 Ali embraced mainstream Islam after doing the HAJJ muslim pilgrimage to Mecca. he than publically rejected the nation of islam and all forms of racism..............fast fwd to 1996 and Ali has spent all his life being a charming, loved man appealing to all creeds and races.....thats why he got to light the Olympic flame.

Why the patronising attitude? I acknowledged that my knowledge wasn't fantastic on that intervening period and that's why I asked. The Sainthood of Ali has meant that these periods are never spoken about.

BTW, your post gave away nothing that hadn't already been posted in the thread....

[Bricks]

A sensitive subject and a complex issue. I can understand Ali being anti-White in his youth given the treatment that he and other Black people received. But, like many others, over time, his views developed and changed. However, the thing that really disturbed me was the way he goaded and humiliated Joe Frazier.

Obviously, Frazier was a hell of a fighter but he wasn't the most articulate guy and Ali took advantage of this. Calling Frazier an uncle Tom and an ugly gorilla went too far for me. Nasty and bullying. I'm afraid it has affected the way I view Ali.

One of my favourite quotes is when Frazier said he wished Ali had fallen into the Olympic flame when he lit it at Atlanta. Just a reminder that his bitterness was still there.

In fairness, Joe wasnt always bitter he was pretty magnanimous with Ali even after the 71 clash. It was Ali who overdid the whole gorilla and ugly stuff plus of course how close the 3rd battle was in terms of Ali almost being pulled out before Frazier.

[funso banjo baby]

and how is Zooey Deschanel pronounced anyway ?

[dondada]

A sensitive subject and a complex issue. I can understand Ali being anti-White in his youth given the treatment that he and other Black people received. But, like many others, over time, his views developed and changed. However, the thing that really disturbed me was the way he goaded and humiliated Joe Frazier.

Obviously, Frazier was a hell of a fighter but he wasn't the most articulate guy and Ali took advantage of this. Calling Frazier an uncle Tom and an ugly gorilla went too far for me. Nasty and bullying. I'm afraid it has affected the way I view Ali.

One of my favourite quotes is when Frazier said he wished Ali had fallen into the Olympic flame when he lit it at Atlanta. Just a reminder that his bitterness was still there.

In fairness, Joe wasnt always bitter he was pretty magnanimous with Ali even after the 71 clash. It was Ali who overdid the whole gorilla and ugly stuff plus of course how close the 3rd battle was in terms of Ali almost being pulled out before Frazier.

Yes, I'm sure he tried his best to be magnanimous and managed it most of the time. But the bitterness won out. Not long before Smokin' Joe's death, his answerphone greeting made mention of the fact Ali wasn't in the best way and that he (Joe) played a part in that. Unless I dreamt this, which is possible.

[Chambers2]

OK, Ali was part of the Nation of Islam who let's say, didn't have great views on white people.

Then, in the 70's, he pointed out that he had no real problem with Apartheid, he just wished the South African blacks got treated better (more of a seperate but equal theory)

By 1996 he has Parkinsons, is lighting the Olympic torch and is seen as a hero.

My question is, had Ali sofened his stance by the time he got ill? Or did he get ill, start shaking, withdraw from making public appearences/statements ect and then benefit from positive revisionism??

Genuine open question as this is never rally spoken about

It's easy to talk about Ali being racist when you wasn't brought up in a segregated society and you and you're family weren't mistreated.

"You'll never understand a person until you walk a mile in their shoes"

I think Alis views were a lot more moderate than mine would've been

[saturday_kid]

So being mistreated is an excuse for being racist?

In that case many many people have an excuse to join the BNP these days.

Remember Ali attended a Klu Klux Klan rally whilst with the Nation Of Islam.

[dondada]

So being mistreated is an excuse for being racist?

An understandable contributing factor, surely?

[saturday_kid]

I suppose but without getting all moral and shit surely your stooping down to their level.

Obviously people are only human.

Just wandering whether people would use being mistreated as an excuse to be a white racist (BNP all them pudenda etc) as much as they seem to for black people being racist against whites.

[Syntax Error]

Ali was a product of the era in which he competed.

Contrary to what many people think, Ali was not that intelligent; it's just that he had the gift of the gab & could disguise his lack of intelligence.

He was easily led & manipulated & I think this has a lot to do with the way he behaved & the things he said.

For these reasons, I can understand his actions.

A lot of people call Ali racist, but the ironic thing is that he used his most racist slurs on his on his black opponents, especially Smokin' Joe Frazier.

The irony was that Joe was more black than Ali was, yet Muhammad insisted on calling Joe an Uncle Tom etc.

The good thing is that Ali realises he was wrong to say those things & has apologised many times.