Tiger Flowers

[Senya13]

1923-05-08 Kid Norfolk
Add time

FLOWERS EASY PICKING
SPRINGFIELD, O., May 9--Kid Norfolk, of New York, successfully defended his title of World's colored light heavyweight champion, here last night by dropping Tiger Flowers of Atlanta, Ga., after two minutes and fifty seconds of fighting in the first round.

Source: Evening Tribune-Times (1923-05-09).


1923-06-20 Rufe Cameron
Add notes

A victory over Rufus Cameron, coast heavyweight, in Nashville Wednesday night is just another feather in the cap of the Tiger. He took every round from Cameron, despite the fact that he was giving away 38 pounds, and twice had the big fellow down for the count of nine. The bell saved him in the fifth round.

Source: The Atlanta Constitution (1923-06-22).


1923-07-18 Tut Jackson
Was it a newspaper decision or a referee decision?

TIGER BESTS TUT.
SPRINGFIELD, Ohio, July 19.--"Tiger" Flowers of Atlanta, Ga., won a referee's decision over Tut Jackson, Washington Courthouse, negro heavyweight, in a 12-round bout.

Source: The Ogden Standard-Examiner (1923-07-19).


1924-03-19 Bob Lawson
Total rounds

NASHVILLE, Tenn., March 20.--Tiger Flowers of Atlanta, negro middleweight, knocked out Bob Lawson of Pittsburg in the sixth round of a scheduled eight-round go here last night.

Source: Oakland Tribune (1924-03-20).

1924-08-12 Oscar Mortimer
Round of the KO, add notes of knockdowns

SAN ANTONIO, Tex., Aug. 13.--Tiger Flowers, Atlanta, battered Oscar Mortimer, Pacific coast middleweight champion, into submission here last night. Mortimer's seconds tossed in the towel for him after the ninth knockdown, which came in the sixth round.

Source: Modesto Evening News (1924-08-13).


1924-08-21 Harry Greb
Check weight

The men boxed at catch weights, but it is understood when they were given a physical examination several hours before the bout, Greb weighed 167 pounds and Flowers 161 1-2.

Source: AP in The Lima News (1924-08-22).
This was actually a disputed decision. AP writer reported 8 rounds for Greb. But there were other opinions too:

Fremont, O.--Harry Greb, world's middleweight champion, was outboxed and outfought by Tiger Flowers, Atlanta, in a ten-round no-decision bout. Flowers had six rounds and Greb only two.

Source: United Press in Sheboygan Press-Telegram (1924-08-22).

MASTER BOXER FINDS NEGRO QUICK AS CAT
BY HARRY BRADBURRY
Sports Editor
Harry Greb, master boxer, found in "Tiger" Flowers, perhaps the most difficult proposition in all his ring experiences. The black fellow certainly made good every claim as to prowess coupled with uncanny skill. It would be unfair, unreasonable and unjust to give a decision otherwise than a draw. Greb with all his wonderful ability, which has proven superior to any of the other middleweights, coupled that skill with cunning and long apprenticeship, without avail. It was a battle in which the "teacher" found his equal. It was not a spectacular battle, but one wonderfully interesting to the devotee learned in the higher branches of the art of self defense. It was a battle of defense rather than offense, for every legitimate blow which would have caused considerable damage, was blocked skillfully by one or the other. It continued thru 10 rounds without a single bit of injury to either, and still every round was fought with a determination to win.
... In the first round ... he (Greb) got considerable the worst of this round ...
The second round proved a great improvement so far as defense was concerned, and was even.
THE THIRD ROUND.
... So this round was even.
The fourth could not be counted any different ... The fifth round I thought Greb got the best of the "Tiger," ... The sixth was even ...
THE SEVENTH ROUND.
... He (Greb) deserved credit for this round.
The eighth was even. ...
And the ninth resulted in exactly the same manner.
In the last round Greb stuck to his same tactics and as negro had fathemed them, the round ended absolutely without damage. And so it ended.

Source: The Lima News (1924-08-22).

NEGROES TO BOX
COLUMBUS, Ohio, Sept. 15.--Tiger Flowers, negro midleweight who outpointed Harry Greb recently at Fremont, meets Jamaica Kid in a twelve round bout here tonight.

Source: Modesto Evening News (1924-09-15).

GREB MARK FOR GEORGIA NEGRO
---
Tiger Flowers Gave Middle Champion Neat Pasting In Ohio Ring.
---
Toledo Sports Writers Gave Black Man Long Edge In Every Round.
---
Tiger Flowers is the unofficial middleweight champion of the universe--in the opinion of the vast majority of sporting editors who saw him punch and pound Harry Greb in Fremont, Ohio, several weeks ago.
After the fight there was sent out of Fremont a story by a press association writer who stated that Greb won eight of the ten rounds. Of all the men who reported the fight, he was the only man who gave Greb any definite margin of victory.
Why that man sent out such a story--or through what sort of ?ino??ed glasses he viewed the fight--is one of those inexplicable mysteries of ringdom.
Fremont Writer's View
This is what James W. Schleinmet (spelling?), sports editor of the Akron (Ohio) Press had to say about the affair.
Flowers defeated Greb. He piled up enough points to make him stand out clearly as the better man. And Flowers did this despite the fact that Greb's very own hand-picked referee, Eddie Kennedy of Pittsburg was the third man in the ring. Kennedy was a farce.
Flowers has the misfortune to have been born a colored man. Reputed to be the whitest black man in the game. Flowers lived up to that reputation.
Deliberately Lied
Tiger got a square deal from most of the fans but in the opinion of this writer the press correspondents from way down east and others who were prejudiced to the point of saying that Greb won eight rounds of the fight are deliberately lying to save the reputation of a world's champ who was licked by a better man and a colored one.
Flowers didn't have a chance at the title Greb holds. The cards were stacked against this black man. The only way that Flowers could have obtained Greb's title was through knockout and I'd die Kennedy, Greb's referee couldn't have counted ten between last night and Christmas if Flowers had landed a lucky punch.
Eight Column Headline
The Toledo Only News Bee carried an eight column first page headline after the fight which said
TIGER TROUNCES GREB
And Dick Meade, its sports editor in reviewing the melee which he awarded to Flowers by a wide margin said:
Tiger Flowers forced Harry Greb to his utmost to keep himself from being annihilated. It was the picture of the title-holder at his best against an opponent his superior in this particular engagement.
George Bulford, veteran sports editor of the Toledo Blade wrote
Gave Greb Boxing Lesson
Flowers took seven of the ten rounds from Greb, winning the popular decision beyond all question of doubt. He administered a boxing lesson to the middle-weight champion and proved himself one of the world's greatest and cleanest boxers. From the first tap of the gong Flowers was out in front and going away. There wasn't a single minute when Greb stacked up even with the ????? streak. He was outboxed, outpunched and outspeeded from gong to gong. Most of the time he was on the retreat and backing away from the flashy negro, who took the pace away from him and carried him faster than he has been carried by any one since he became a national figure in the boxing world.
Greb On Defensive
Greb met a man in Flowers who took the play right away from him. Instead of being the aggressor, Greb was one the defensive most of the time. All through the fight with the excetion of a few moments Flowers set the pace, forced the fighting nd compelled the champion to conduct a masterful retreat.
Greb fought a foul battle using his elbows, his head and resorting to his old trick of holding and hitting.
B. W. Dickerson, referee and the sports editor of the Grand Rapids Herald was at the ringside. In his judgement, Flowers won. After the battle he wrote a story, which embraced an interview with Greb. This is what Greb said:
Greatest He Ever Faced
Flowers is the greatest boxer I ever faced in the ring. He can beat Heavyweight champion Jack Dempsey in a contest of 10 rounds. He gave me a fight I will never forget and it showed me a lot of things about boxing that I never knew before.
But in face of all that a press association reporter sent in story that was printed throughout the country, which stated that Greb was an easy winner, scoring eight of the ten rounds.
Why? Was he paid for his dirty work or is he just a plain sap?

Source: The Lincoln Star (1924-10-13).

AS A MATTER OF FACT
BY HARDY BRADBURY
In a conversation shortly after Harry Greb finished his bout with "Tiger" Flowers, at Fremont, he gave his opinion of the ability of this black boxer. Among other things Greb said was that if Flowers could learn to punch straight, instead of round arm blows, he would beat any boxer in the game. "He is a tough customer," said Greb, and hereafter I draw a color line, "you couldn't get me to go against this fellow again for any amount of money." In close scrutiny of this bout, I quite agree with Greb. Flowers lacks little in defense, but lacks the straight arm punch which characterizes every champion boxer, especially of his weight and lighter. He has a lightning cross blow with either arm, which Greb found hard to block, and in the first and second round did considerable damage. If these had been straight from the shoulder, it is certain that they would have done a great deal more damage. But it is in the art of blocking that the negro surpasses. I cannot remember, where I have seen a cleverer boxer at this important requirement than "Tiger" Flowers. Greb could find no weakness and it is certain that he searched long and carefully.

Source: The Lima News (1924-08-31)




1924-09-01 Tut Jackson
Check result, total rounds, add notes

TIGER FLOWERS KAYOS JACKSON
Wheeling, W. Va., Sept 2.--Tiger Flowers of Atlanta, Ga., scored a technical knockout over Tut Jackson of Washington Courthouse, Ohio, in the eighth round of a scheduled 10-round bout at League Park, Martins Ferry, Ohio, last night.

Source: Syracuse Herald (1924-09-02).

Tiger Flowers floored Tat Jackson four times in their 10-round meeting at Martins Ferry. Flowers easily won.

Source: The Zanesville Signal (1924-09-03).


1924-09-22 Lee Anderson
Check result

FLOWERS WINS
Columbus, O.--Tiger Flowers, Atlanta, won the decision over Lee Anderson, New York, in twelve rounds.

Source: Ironwood Daily Globe, The Davenport Democrat And Leader (1924-09-23), Nebraska State Journal (1924-09-24).


1924-11-01 George Robinson
Add weight

TIGER RUSHES ROBINSON OFF FEET
---
New York, November 1.--(Special) Tiger Flowers, Atlanta middleweight, rushed George Robinson, Boston, off his feet from first to twelfth and last round, and won the decision at the end of the speediest and most scientific match of the season here tonight.
Flowers was always aggressor, while Robinson, a natural phenomenon on defense, failed to get his speedier opponent in a single round.
There were no knockdowns. Robinson weighed 160 and Flowers a half pound less.

Source: The Atlanta Constitution (1924-11-02).


1924-11-10 Hughie Clemons
Change result to TKO. Add weight for Ryan-Barrett, and total rounds for Roberts-Mendell.

TIGER SCORES DOUBLE WIN
---
Philadelphia, November 10.--Billy Ryan, Cincinnati welterweight, was awarded the judges' decision over Bobby Barrett, Clifton Heights, Pa., at the conclusion of their 10-round fight tonight. Ryan's victory was not easy and at the close of the encounter he had to be helped from the ring. Barrett weighed 148 and Ryan 150.
Tiger Flowers, Atlanta negro middleweight, won a double victory. He knocked out Jerry Hayes, near the end of the second round, and gave Hughey Clemons, his second opponent, such a bad beating that Clemons' seconds threw a towel into the ring in the second round.
The double bout was staged when Jackie Clark, of Allentown, Pa., was unable to box on account of injuries.
Roche Rodgers knocked out Joe Mandell in the fifth round of their scheduled six-round lightweight bout.

Source: The Atlanta Constitution (1924-11-11).


1924-12-01 Battling Gahee
Check total rounds

COLUMBUS -- (By United Press) -- Tiger Flowers, Atlanta negro, scored a technical knockout over Battling Gahee, Youngstown middleweight, in the second round of the scheduled 12-round fight. Gahee was on the floor unwilling to fight and Referee Trott stopped the bout.

Source: The Lima News (1924-12-02).


1924-12-09 Johnny Wilson
Add total rounds, referee

"Tiger" Flowers, Atlanta, Ga., Negro middleweight, won from Johnny Wilson of New York, former middleweight champion, on a technical knockout in the third round of a scheduled ten-round bout when Referee Eddie Purdie stopped the fight when Wilson was on the verge of a knockout and virtually helpless.

Source: Iowa City Press-Citizen and many other newspapers. (1924-12-10).
Also add the time of stoppage, 2:55

The end came within five seconds of the end of the round. Wilson was rushed to the corner and hammered by his negro opponent, unable to offer any resistance and almost helpless, when the referee called a halt.

Source: The Fresno Bee (1924-12-10).


1924-12-15 Jack Townsend
Add total rounds

Philadelphia, Penn., Dec. 16.--Tiger Flowers stopped Jack Townsend in the fifth round of their scheduled ten-rounder at the Arena here, and Sid Terris, of New York, won every round of his battle with Whitey Fitzgerald.

Source: Manitoba Free Press (1924-12-16).

[delisa]

Good job!

[Ric]

All notes and edits made to the record, and to the applicable fight pages:
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=011336

Now that you see how it is done, particularly with creating Wiki Encyclopedia fight pages, Senya, who don't you consider becoming a fellow volunteer BoxRec Editor? Email Administrator JohnShep for a user name and password at [email protected]

[Senya13]

I noticed the 1924-09-01 Tut Jackson is still listed as a loss for Flowers, not a win.
Is there are any kind of rules available I can read before I agree or decline to become one? Duties, assigned list of fighters to be researched, time schedule? I'm kinda a freelancer, in choosing how much efforts to put on research and which fighters.

[Ric]

Is there are any kind of rules available I can read before I agree or decline to become one? Duties, assigned list of fighters to be researched, time schedule? I'm kinda a freelancer, in choosing how much efforts to put on research and which fighters.

There is only one “rule” for all BoxRec Editors: to be as truthful and accurate as possible, citing sources whenever possible.

Each volunteer BoxRec Editor contributes to the database at his/her own pace, on whatever boxers, era, country, or any other subject that interests that Editor individually. Many of us also contribute to BoxRec.com’s sister boxing Encyclopedia-–one factoid at a time.

Your original post to this thread shows me that you “have the goods”: the sources, the info needed, and writing style. Please join us. It’s free and easy to join.

[Senya13]

http://boxrec.com/show_display.php?show_id=12710

1924-08-21 Harry Greb
This was actually a disputed decision.

Will this ever be changed from a newspaper win for Greb?

Newspaper decision for Flowers from James W. Schlemmer (Akron Press), Dick Meade (Toledo News-Bee; 5-2-3), George R. Pulford (Toledo Blade), E. W. Dickerson (Grand Rapids Herald), UP (6-2-2).
Newspaper decision for Greb from Regis Welsh (Pittsburgh Post; 7-2-1), AP (8 rounds for Greb), INS (4-1-5).
A draw from Harry Bradbury (Lima News).

5 reporters gave it to Flowers, 3 to Greb, and one had it a draw.

P.S. The statement ending the commentary for the bout is completely silly. Tiger's manager didn't need to claim victory, it was given to Flowers by the majority of ringside reporters.

P.P.S. And before someone says Welsh's opinion has more weight, if I had to choose between two opposite experts' opinions, each giving one fighter 7 rounds, or, better yet, anonymous AP writer giving Greb 8 rounds, I'd certainly pick Pulford as the more respected and knowledgable at the time (he had been reporting boxing since early 1900s, see his write-ups as Tip Wright for Jeffries-Johnson, for example), and having less reason to be biased. Dickerson was the sporting editor of Grand Rapids newspapers since at least 1899.

[klompton]

Far more first hand sources voted that Greb won the first Flowers bout. By a margin of almost three sources to one. Ive done a ton of research on this fight and its safe to say that more people thought Greb won but that those who thought Flowers won were much more vocal, hence the confusion both then and now.

In regards to your question about the Tut Jackson bout: for the record most of Ohio allowed referees decisions unless otherwise noted in the contracts. So its entirely possible it was a refs decision.

[Senya13]

Well, in case you add a more complete list of ringside votes for that bout, it's ok to keep it as a win for Greb. But as it stands now, it looks silly.

[klompton]

Why is it silly? Boxrec has never been comprehensive, especially not when it comes to sources.

Also, the weights for the Greb-Flowers are unofficial. There was a pre-fight physical but Greb didnt weigh in, his given weight was an estimate and its not clear whether Flowers did either.

[klompton]

Another point is that while you may give Pulfords report a lot of weight you might also consider that at the time there were three toledo papers and 2 of those voted for Greb.

Also, this is one rare instance where we actually have the name of the AP writer, so while your source may not give him a byline he most certainly wasnt unknown which adds weight to the report.

[Senya13]

It is silly, because:

1) It says: "Opinions about the winner varied". Then it lists one non-local newspaper scoring it a draw, another non-local (probably the AP wire, but it doesn't even says so) scoring for Greb, and 3rd account for Greb as well. How is that opinion "varied" about the winner when not a single source scoring it for Flowers is listed, not a single mention that anybody scored for him?

2) Basically 75% of the comment consists of opinion of one writer, from Greb's home town's newspaper.

3) I don't see it in the press following the bout how Flowers' manager had an unrelenting publicity campaign. Had he got the AP compose something on that matter and publish it in hundreds and thousands of American newspapers, that would make sense. But the AP scored it as an easy victory for Greb and I didn't find any further write-ups published globally until the one written by Menke one month after the bout. Menke's letters were printed by by far fewer newspapers nationally than the AP, and I doubt that Flowers' manager had anything to do with Menke composing that piece anyway. Where's this unrelenting publicity campaign?

If you don't want to list exact votes, why not at least list the ones I put up and put a comment "Still the majority of reports favored Greb"?

As for the weights of opinions, for the most part, I compared Regis Welsh to those others. Like I said Pulford was by far more experienced and respected and was known nationally as a boxing expert (his write-ups were syndicated in late 1900s to early 1910s). Dickerson probably was even more experienced (going by years of covering boxing) and was renowned for having predicted correctly the results of 50 out of 55 significant fights in 1906-1908 through the pages of Denver Rocky Mountain News where he was the sporting editor during that time. Dick Meade was the sporting editor of News-Bee since at least 1907. Regis Welsh was relatively unexperienced compared to these three. When did he start writing sports for Pittsburgh newspaper? What was the name of the AP writer, out of curiosity? He was a renowned writer? The reports I've seen in misc newspapers don't list the author's name for the AP report, which is rather short anyway.

Three Toledo newspapers, two voted for Greb? Meade in News-Bee voted for Flowers and Pulford in Blade voted for him as well. Am I missing something? I suppose, Larry Grill of Toledo Times voted for Greb? He seemed to be the sp. ed. of The Times.

[klompton]

I didnt write the entry Boxrec for what its worth. That being said, you are arguing against something based on your own lack of the facts. Thats not really a solid stance to be taking wouldnt you agree? Just because you havent seen evidence of Walk Miller's campaign to publicise Flowers' showing doesnt mean it didnt happen. It just means you dont have all the sources, which is fairly obvious by you trying to argue that Flowers won. Pulford was more experienced and more known than Welsh? Thats debatable but its also besides the point. Are you intimating that you are picking and choosing opinions based on experience? So if a cub reporter is reporting on a fight and happens to disagree with you hes wrong? That seems to strain credibility. You are correct that two of the three toledo papers voted for Flowers, I mispoke without looking at my notes. A quick survey of the notes I have for that chapter in my book lists: 14 verifiable first hand press reports voting for Greb (four more are listed in second hand sources but I could not verify those accounts because apparently the editions of those papers which carried the report were not preserved on microfilm) That tally also does not include three wire service accounts, in addition to the quoted AP report which had a byline and can be traced, which favored Greb but arent as easily traced as the most widely quoted AP report, 6 for Flowers (It could be seven but one report could not be verified for the previous reason), and 3 having it a draw (not including the opinion of the promoter and the referee, both of whom also had it a draw). Dickerson was one of those who had it a draw. Whether you believe it or not Walk Miller, Flowers manager, went on a letter writing campaign afterwards which catapulted his fighter to position of national prominance based on this "win" which is unsupported by the majority of sources. As for Frank Menke he was based out of Ohio and was a big supporter of Flowers and a big detractor of Greb. The AP reporter was Jimmy McGuire who worked out of the Chicago office. Its pretty weak to criticize something because you dont have all the facts, or to assume that something never happened just because youve never found it. Its notable that those reports you quote which list the various newspaper decisions for Flowers always leave out the vast majority of sources that voted for Greb and distort others, such as Dickerson who voted it a draw but below is quoted in the Modesto Bee (a paper 3000 miles away) as voting for Flowers. To me it sounds like youve made up your mind so you dont have to believe any of this, Im certainly not about to write out my chapter and liner notes on the fight before I publish, but I would suggest you go back and take a more comprehensive look at the fight.

[Senya13]

I'm not trying to argue that Flowers won, I don't care one way or another. I trusted your word that Greb had the majority of votes and suggested, if you didn't want to reveal exact newspapers/reporters, that at least the ones I mentioned to be put in the comment box, but ending with "the majority of reporters still voted for Greb".

I'm arguing mostly against what is listed in the commentary field for that bout right now. It doesn't list anyone voting for Flowers at all.

I'd expect such a campaign to start soon after the bout, and be significant enough to somehow get a mention in newspapers not involved in the fight or the fighters (ie, not Fremont, OH; Pittsburgh, PA; Atlanta, GA), national prominence requires national newspaper coverage, I thought. I didn't find any mentions of it, except for that letter by Frank Menke, that's all. If it had taken place, fine. My understanding of what a campaign would look like must be different then. It must have involved only some particular newspapers then?

Yes, Pulford was obviously more experienced and more known than Regis Welsh in August 1924. And yes, it's besides the point, but I said that regarding who's opinion I would pick between Pulford and Welsh, or Pulford and the AP writer. Don't twist it like I'd only believe Pulford's opinion and nobody else's. He was a better expert at the time, and had less reason to be biased than Welsh, that's all. Not that his vote was final and outweighed any other's.

Menke was originally from Cleveland, yes, but he was in New York for many years by that time, I think. I don't see how him being from Ohio would make him favor a colored fighter from Georgia, or make a connection between him and Flowers' manager, anyway. He was among the recepients of those letters from Walk Miller? Or he was assisting Flowers' manager in his campaign, for one reason or another?

So, Menke misquoted the decision expressed by Dickerson, about who he picked the winner? OK. I'll make a mental note not to believe everything Menke says even regarding such simple thing as which writer picked whom. Modesto Bee didn't say Dickerson voted for Flowers, Frank Menke did. One of the newspaper which printed his letter (which was syndicated and was printed by many newspapers) was the Lincoln (NE) Star, from which I quoted it. It was also printed in Canton (OH) Evening Repository, if that somehow makes it any more credible, by picking a newspaper (among many, which had re-printed that syndicated write-up, penned by Menke, sitting in New York office of King Features Syndicate, I believe), which is located closer to the place, where the fight had taken place.

I have no idea who Jimmy McGuire was and how good he was as a reporter. At least I'm sure he wasn't better boxing expert than Pulford, you don't agree? Otherwise he would have gained national prominence like Pulford did. From the reports I've seen, the fight certainly sounded a lot closer than 8 easy rounds for Greb.

[klompton]

I'm not trying to argue that Flowers won, I don't care one way or another. I trusted your word that Greb had the majority of votes and suggested, if you didn't want to reveal exact newspapers/reporters, that at least the ones I mentioned to be put in the comment box, but ending with "the majority of reporters still voted for Greb".

The comment boxes cant accomodate EVERY single source.

I'm arguing mostly against what is listed in the commentary field for that bout right now. It doesn't list anyone voting for Flowers at all.

So what? Is it necessary to list a first hand opinion beyond stating that the there was a difference of opinion? That's what wikis are for and why they can be a double edged sword. You yourself admit you dont have all of the facts or sources and yet you want the comment section or wiki changed based on your limited understanding of the facts. I disagree.

I'd expect such a campaign to start soon after the bout, and be significant enough to somehow get a mention in newspapers not involved in the fight or the fighters (ie, not Fremont, OH; Pittsburgh, PA; Atlanta, GA), national prominence requires national newspaper coverage, I thought. I didn't find any mentions of it, except for that letter by Frank Menke, that's all. If it had taken place, fine. My understanding of what a campaign would look like must be different then. It must have involved only some particular newspapers then?

Again, its out there, go find it. Simply because you havent found evidence of it doesnt mean no one else has or that it didnt happen.

Yes, Pulford was obviously more experienced and more known than Regis Welsh in August 1924. And yes, it's besides the point, but I said that regarding who's opinion I would pick between Pulford and Welsh, or Pulford and the AP writer. Don't twist it like I'd only believe Pulford's opinion and nobody else's. He was a better expert at the time, and had less reason to be biased than Welsh, that's all. Not that his vote was final and outweighed any other's.

Again, what difference does a mans tenure have on his opinion? Duane Ford has a lot more experience judging boxing matches than I do but his opinion doesnt mean jack shit to me. Regis Welsh was sports editor for the largest newspaper in a city twice the size of Toledo, he was well respected throughout the country and showed many times that he was not in Greb's hip pocket. By the end of his career had worked for three major Pittsburgh Papers and two major New York Papers in addition to having several other positions related to the sport of boxing. Im very comfortable giving his opinion every bit as much weight as George Pulford who throughout his career was more than willing to show that he could be biased and play favorites. Go back and read through some of his editorials if you dont agree.

Menke was originally from Cleveland, yes, but he was in New York for many years by that time, I think. I don't see how him being from Ohio would make him favor a colored fighter from Georgia, or make a connection between him and Flowers' manager, anyway. He was among the recepients of those letters from Walk Miller? Or he was assisting Flowers' manager in his campaign, for one reason or another?

Menke was from Cleveland and by this time divided his time between Ohio, New York, and Washington. I never said being from Ohio was the cause of him favoring Flowers, just that Flowers was a favorite of his and Greb was not. Once again, I suggest you go back and read through his columns if you dont believe me and you will find a plethora of critical articles aimed at Greb and just as many praising Flowers before he ever fought Greb.

So, Menke misquoted the decision expressed by Dickerson, about who he picked the winner? OK. I'll make a mental note not to believe everything Menke says even regarding such simple thing as which writer picked whom.

Why would you? Why not just pull Dickerson's original article from Grand Rapids? I hope you dont believe every third hand account you read from this era, if so you will be sorely dissappointed when you start digging deaper.

Modesto Bee didn't say Dickerson voted for Flowers, Frank Menke did. One of the newspaper which printed his letter (which was syndicated and was printed by many newspapers) was the Lincoln (NE) Star, from which I quoted it. It was also printed in Canton (OH) Evening Repository, if that somehow makes it any more credible, by picking a newspaper (among many, which had re-printed that syndicated write-up, penned by Menke, sitting in New York office of King Features Syndicate, I believe), which is located closer to the place, where the fight had taken place.

I have a better idea, instead of giving such weight to a column by a guy who wasnt even at the fight, why not pay attention to the actual people who were there, whether they are experienced enough in your eyes or not. It is just a fight after all, its not rocket science, a five year old can tell you who won a fight after its over.

I have no idea who Jimmy McGuire was and how good he was as a reporter. At least I'm sure he wasn't better boxing expert than Pulford, you don't agree? Otherwise he would have gained national prominence like Pulford did.

I dont agree. There were many many many great boxing writers from this era that never gained national prominance. I also dont necessarily agree that Pulford was that nationally renknowned either, but thats a different argument. As I said before, its not rocket science. Experience or not it doesnt take a genius or so-called boxing expert to tell you who won a fight. As for McGuire I dont know anything about him but its possible if not likely that he was James P. McGuire who eventually worked for the Chicago Times, had a movie made about his exploits in investigative reporting, and has a distinguished award for journalism named in his honor.

From the reports I've seen, the fight certainly sounded a lot closer than 8 easy rounds for Greb.

And as has become obvious you havent seen all of the reports. Flowers made a great showing and made Greb work harder than he had for a long time but the vast majority of reports have Greb winning at least seven rounds. I have nearly thirty reports of this fight. How many reports are basing your opinion on?

The bottom line is that while the boxrec entry isnt comprehensive its correct and the end result is what matters right?

[Senya13]

Whatever. I could reply to every statement, but if you don't keep track of context and semantics of what I wrote, there's no use. You'll still atribute me with things I didn't say.

I'm not an editor, my requests of changes are being ignored, why I'm gonna waste my time. Let's just keep three sources listed where there were thirty, you say.

[klompton]

I dont think its the job of myself or any editor or even boxrec as a whole to give a comprehensive listing of the opinions of every person ringside at a given fight. If thats the case you can get rid of at least half the ND results you have attributed on here AND their descriptions, which more often than not come from AP reports from newspapers nowhere near the action.

Unless Im mistaken you once said when we debated that your approach is "something is better than nothing." I dont agree if the "something" is the wrong result but in this case its not.

I have a lot of respect for you, and like you so I dont know why we continue to bump heads, I find that when I read your posts I tend to agree with you about 99% of the time but on this subject, like the weights for Gibbons-McFarland we must agree to disagree.

[Senya13]

I'm not saying we should list all of them. In case of aforementioned McFarland-Gibbons, I don't have the scores of several Brooklyn newspapers (News, Times, Standard Union), I'm pretty sure there were more Chicago newspapers at the fight, as well as some St. Paul and Minneapolis newspapers might have their own correspondent. I don't have the ability to request this or that newspaper from a library (living in Russia), but I've done the best I could, and I'm pretty sure it's better than what was there before me (I think there was NY Times, the AP wire and maybe one or two others).