Pound 4 Pound Top ten: Mission Impossible now?

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 22 Sep 2005, 17:07

I know its all subjective, but I think doing a world P4P is now probably the hardest task since I can remember.

I think the top 3 are now set in stone and a long way clear of number 4. Currently I would have it as

1) Mayweather
2) Barerra
3) Winky.

Then comes the hard bit, just who do you have in the rest of the P4P list to make a top ten.

I would say probably Judah would be next, but not too long ago he lost to Spinks and further back he lost to Tszyu. He has looked electric recently, but his opponents haven't been great - and I wouldn't write off Spinks to beat him in the rubber (the second fight was close untill the stoppage).

Then you have the fighters who have caused a sensation recently, isn't it a bit early though to consider Hatton or Jermain Taylor yet. They beat Legends, but legends both over the age of 35 and it is unclear how "shot" these fighters were. It is especially hard to rank Taylor for the moment because IMO he was lucky to get the verdict.

So then you go further down, Pacquiao? Possibly, but lost to Morales decisively, who has just lost to Raheem? Raheem? Lost to Juarez, who lost to Soto? Soto? Not even a proper world champion. Corrales? Well if you consider Corrales who have got to mention both Castillo and Casamayor in the same breath - these three guys are inseperable. Juan Manuel Marquez? Possibly, but drew to Pacquiao (see above).

Other contenders. Antionio Tarver? #1 at Light Heavy, but wasn't 1 fight ago. Oscar De La Hoya? Inactive, coming off a defeat. Oscar Larios? Not sure if he is #1 at his own weight let alone in the P4P mix. Rafael Marquez? Yes, I would have him in the 10 but still looking for a stand out win I think 4 is a little lofty for someone without a stand out win. Jean Marc Mormeck? Is a partially unified champion but didn't look like a great vs the beatable Hill and Rothman. Klitchsko? Is he #1 Heavyweight? Jorge Arce? Maybe it his time now. Fernando Montiel? Struggled last time out. Good old Resondo Alvarez? I am a huge fan of his but he is just to inactive to consider.

I think its a little early to consider the likes of Cotto, Karmazin, and Lacy.

What is your pound 4 pound list. I liked Steve Bunce's assessment on Sky that a good P4P top ten is when you look at the fighters from 1 -10 and you can say "Yes, they can mix it with any fighter from any era". I don't think I can say that about any other than the 1,2,3. Boxing is crying out for a star.

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 22 Sep 2005, 17:31

Stu, Raheem was aparently robbed against Juarez. So hes a P4P future contender - his biggest win is Morales though. - so you may have him on the Hatton-Taylor level as hes campaigning at 130 too. Barreras also in the Marquez-Pacman-Morales-Raheem Pentagon.

P4P has been changing monthly over the last 2years with top10ers falling out of the top10 every other fight.

Now do you rate P4P on achievement or the original concept of if they were all the same weight/size who'd rule over who? Lets start on achievement

1. Mayweather
2. Winky - I don't like him but he beat Trinidad and Mosley
3 Barrera
4 Taylor (Hopkins was P4P no1)
5. Tarver (Jones and Johnson who he was robbed against first time)
6. Hatton (beat Zoo)
7. Raheem (beat Morales better than Barrera and is fighting at 130 now)
8. Judah (king of 147 and a good CV but no stand out name)
9. Hopkins (ex P4P king and came close v Taylor)
10. Corrales - beat Freitas, Castillo (cheated?) and Casa
10. Morales - hes Morales
11. Pacman - beat Barrera, fought Morales hard
12. JM Marquez - really beat Pac
13 Castillo - got a gift against Cassa but was beating on Corrales and been a long time 135 champ
13 Cassa - robbed plenty of times and 2 weight champ
15 Mormeck
16 R Marquez - top man at 118 who supposedly weighs 140

Now in terms of abilities that could be turned upside down:

Hopkins at no9 would beat Winky no2 like a dog and their relatively the same size (Hopkins may actually be able to make 154. Raheem at no7 would probably be a nightmare for Barrera no3 as would Pacman no11. Judah I would pick to completely outbox Hatton.

And I wouldn't be suprised if Jones Jr boxed Tarvers ears off to jump back in the mix.

Basically P4P lists are flavour of the month lists more than anything.

states · Post by **states** » 22 Sep 2005, 18:48

I stand by my long held belief that p4p rankings these days are a bit of fun: no more, no less. Maybe the term meant something in the days of one champion, but in this era of fractured championships, guys fighting twice a year (and rarely in 50/50 fights at that) how can you judge? Sure, there are people you have to consider to be amongst the best, such as Barrera, or Morales, because they have fought tough competition for a number of years. But then you look at the fact that we can't decide who's the better fighter, even after the 36 rounds they've shared, and then you factor in the losses they have, be they against Raheem, or Pac, or Junior Jones, and you end up right where you started.

Hatton scores a great win, but does that elevate him to one of the best fighters in the world after years of WBU defences? Likewise with Taylor: He has the W against his name for the Hopkins fight, but plenty of people dispute that, so why should he be regarded so highly? And Tarver: he has the win over Jones (an undisputed great), and solidifies that with a win over Johnson (who's own ranking amongst top fighters is essentially based upon a win over a Jones who'd just lost), but is he any better than an Oscar Larios, or a Martin Castillo? It's too hard to judge, because the whole process these days depends on names, rather than achievements, or so it seems. Even when we look at sheer talent, as we do with Mayweather, it could be argued that Floyd hasn't actually beaten anyone of note in the last few years.

Personally, I leave the whole thing alone. It's a subjective notion that has no real answer today. It's a bit of fun, but too many people take it too seriously: Many times, I've been on forums and disagreed with someones list, and received a load of crap in response, even though it's opinion, not fact. Far too much emphasis placed on it by some people.

nas7232 · Post by **nas7232** » 22 Sep 2005, 19:08

Does p4p have to be in terms of how many fights they have won and who against because in some re-matches i could see many fights going the other way around.

I would rate pacman above morales

johnswan1 · Post by **johnswan1** » 23 Sep 2005, 04:22

Could people please cop on with their P4P rankings. Just a couple of months ago everybody had Hopkins ranked as number 1 or 2. He was robbed a decision against Taylor and IMO put in a great performance and done nothing to suggest his rating as a P4P fighter should be altered. People should wait until after the rematch in December before writing him off - even if it does turn out to be his last fight.

Matchfixer · Post by **Matchfixer** » 23 Sep 2005, 08:00

johnswan1 wrote:Could people please cop on with their P4P rankings. Just a couple of months ago everybody had Hopkins ranked as number 1 or 2. He was robbed a decision against Taylor and IMO put in a great performance and done nothing to suggest his rating as a P4P fighter should be altered. People should wait until after the rematch in December before writing him off - even if it does turn out to be his last fight.

I agree 100% with this.

Not a fan at all of Hopkins but still no reason for Taylor to be above him (even if victory had been clear) or for Hopkins to be so low.

Taylor hasn't achieved anywhere near as much as Hopkins (Similar arguement for Hatton_Tszyu)

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 23 Sep 2005, 08:15

P4P there's only one name, the others don't even come close

Mayweather.

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 23 Sep 2005, 09:01

Matchfixer wrote:
johnswan1 wrote:Could people please cop on with their P4P rankings. Just a couple of months ago everybody had Hopkins ranked as number 1 or 2. He was robbed a decision against Taylor and IMO put in a great performance and done nothing to suggest his rating as a P4P fighter should be altered. People should wait until after the rematch in December before writing him off - even if it does turn out to be his last fight.
I agree 100% with this.

Not a fan at all of Hopkins but still no reason for Taylor to be above him (even if victory had been clear) or for Hopkins to be so low.

Taylor hasn't achieved anywhere near as much as Hopkins (Similar arguement for Hatton_Tszyu)

Taylor won, he pretty much won the first 7 or so with Hopkins doing Sweet FA, it was nowhere in the vicinity of a robbery, maybe Hopkins is too low though.

J · Post by J » 23 Sep 2005, 09:18

mayweather
barerra
Winky
Hopkins
Corralles
Morales
Pac
Marquez
judah
Tarver.

note: One win tight world class does not make you p4p anything.

hence no hatton and no taylor, if they do it again i.e. another win over world class then yo have to include them.

I have to say some of the people who were putting Cotto in not so long ago look pretty fornicating stupid. Its not about potential when doing a world top ten, its about consistent achievement in my opinion

I could argue different if you are doing say a top 20 domestic however, then poetntial comes into it due to there being less top level fighters.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 23 Sep 2005, 09:36

Quite right, how the fornicate does Taylor get to #4, based on one razor thin win over the former #1? Hopkins only drops a couple of places for me, his achievements deserve better than 9th. Barrera lost to junior Jones and Morales, Hopkins lost to Jones Jr 10 years ago, and JUST to Taylor.

No way should Winky be so high, Mosley was faded and in the wrong weight class, Tito looked dreadful, Winky top 10 maybe, but top 5, no way.

steve689 · Post by **steve689** » 23 Sep 2005, 10:11

Hopkins has to be in the top three in my opinion, one loss and that diminishes all the other years of stuff he has achieved? Surely not, you can't move him down to eighth on one narrow loss and move guys less deserving above him it's ludicrous. I have it something like
1) Mayweather 2) Hopkins 3) Barrera 4) Wright but it's flexible.

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 23 Sep 2005, 15:28

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Quite right, how the fornicate does Taylor get to #4, based on one razor thin win over the former #1? Hopkins only drops a couple of places for me, his achievements deserve better than 9th. Barrera lost to junior Jones and Morales, Hopkins lost to Jones Jr 10 years ago, and JUST to Taylor.

No way should Winky be so high, Mosley was faded and in the wrong weight class, Tito looked dreadful, Winky top 10 maybe, but top 5, no way.

Using your idea you'd have Jones Jr as number 1 still, so what if he lost his last too fights he dominated for 10years. Taylor beat Hopkins in his last fight so he has to be ahead of him - it was close BUT Taylor won.

Winkys proved himself the king of 154 and his wins of Tito and Mosley matchs Hopkins wins against DLH and Tito. I'd say Hopkins and Winky are both overated though.

nas7232 · Post by **nas7232** » 23 Sep 2005, 16:10

Mmmmh saying hopkins is no.1 is like saying ali is no.1 at the present time. Hopkins is getting older and you can see signs of him decreasing in quality.

If you want to say hopkins is still no.1 regardless then you are not considering all factors because mayweather has done enough to be put to no.1 imo. The strong win over gatti is evidence of this.

jomothepure · Post by **jomothepure** » 23 Sep 2005, 16:32

This is verging on the offtopic, but I've been wanting to raise this for sometime:

If (and, in all honesty, I personally I don't think it will happen, and given recent history, the odds are stacked against it...)

...BUT, if Roy JJ were to beat Tarver, maybe then put one over on (IMO) a Glencoffe on the wain, would that not make him quite something? It's one thing to to be an undisputed champ, but it surely takes more, to lose that crown, then go through the pain, training, and PMA most of us can't even imagine, to regain it.

Similarly, If and when Hopkins reagins his crown from Taylor, that would make him arguably more of a champ than he was before

steve689 · Post by **steve689** » 23 Sep 2005, 16:50

nas7232 wrote:Mmmmh saying hopkins is no.1 is like saying ali is no.1 at the present time. Hopkins is getting older and you can see signs of him decreasing in quality.

If you want to say hopkins is still no.1 regardless then you are not considering all factors because mayweather has done enough to be put to no.1 imo. The strong win over gatti is evidence of this.

Putting Hopkins still at No. 1 is a bit strong i agree with Mayweather breating down his neck but dropping him so low is ridiculous. You can't forget all he has achieved by saying in that case we can have Ali still in the ratings, Hopkins is an active fighter. How can you dismiss his achievements on the strength of one loss and put people who haven't even achieved half of what he has above him? I don't understnd that. Hopkins isn't on a decline for all to see, he lost one tight decision and will probably win the rematch...to push him out of the rankings is just harsh.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 23 Sep 2005, 17:58

I know its subjective but you've GOT to have Taylor above Hopkins. He won, they are both Middleweights - simple as.

Taylor is ranked higher than Hopkins at Middleweight, so he's got to be ranked higher in the P4P sense.

Different scenerio's are Winky Wright and Oscar De La Hoya who both have had a good career at a lower weight. If Wright lost honourably to Taylor than you can still argue the point of Wright being ranked above him P4P, same with DLH. However, Taylor and Hopkins are the same weight throughout their career.

I think even if Hopkins dismantles Taylor in the first round he won't regain that #1 position - he has proven now to be beatable, he'd probably have to beat Taylor and Wright to regain the #1 position for me.

Lefthookhappy19 · Post by **Lefthookhappy19** » 23 Sep 2005, 18:24

1. Mayweather
2. Hopkins
3. Barrera
4. Pacquaio
5. Martin Castillo
6. Wright
7. Morales (needs real motivation to fight his best)
8. Judah
9. Raf Marquez
10. Juan Manuel Marquez

M.Castillo has P4P level skills. Like fornicate Taylor and Tarver deserve to be P4P, no fuckin way. Their are better guys around. While I have Barrera above Pac, I believe Manny would smoke him in a rematch. Barrera will never be able to handle him imo.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 24 Sep 2005, 15:03

Lefthookhappy19 wrote:
M.Castillo has P4P level skills. Like fornicate Taylor and Tarver deserve to be P4P, no fuckin way. Their are better guys around.

But not Hopkins, he lost to Taylor.

Lefthookhappy19 · Post by **Lefthookhappy19** » 24 Sep 2005, 17:57

Hopkins is a tough one. He lost so narrowly and didn't in a lot of people's minds. That against a guy 15 years his junior or something. His long reign I think JUST keeps him their but arguments can easily be made against him. Probably switch Barrera and Hopkins on second thought.

I think Jermaine Taylor is totally overrated. He's just a big guy with a decent jab a good speed. If he was a real talent he would have dealt with old man Hopkins and not have been conned by him. The guy looks so basic, if he wasn't so big at the weight I think he would struggle. Hopkins shouldn't really be that high, its kind of by default ive got him their. Jermaine Taylor is not a P4P fighter, I'd have Corrales or Hatton in before I'd put Taylor

I was gonna put Montiel in also, he's a talented fighter. I know you'd like that one Stu.

states · Post by **states** » 24 Sep 2005, 19:23

Lefthookhappy19 wrote:Hopkins is a tough one. He lost so narrowly and didn't in a lot of people's minds. That against a guy 15 years his junior or something. His long reign I think JUST keeps him their but arguments can easily be made against him. Probably switch Barrera and Hopkins on second thought.

I think Jermaine Taylor is totally overrated. He's just a big guy with a decent jab a good speed. If he was a real talent he would have dealt with old man Hopkins and not have been conned by him. The guy looks so basic, if he wasn't so big at the weight I think he would struggle. Hopkins shouldn't really be that high, its kind of by default ive got him their. Jermaine Taylor is not a P4P fighter, I'd have Corrales or Hatton in before I'd put Taylor

I was gonna put Montiel in also, he's a talented fighter. I know you'd like that one Stu.

Some good points: Yes, Taylor best Hopkins. But plenty of people will argue that he didn't. So surely the argument can run and run. People can argue about Hatton's win over Tszyu (and God knows people have done) but the fact is, Hatton forced Tszyu to stay on his stool. There's no debate over the winner in that fight. My point is, how much emphasis should be placed on Taylors win? Personally, I thought he won. Was it an undisputed win? Not in the eye's of many 'experts'. But does that result mean that Hopkins should be bounced down the ratings? He's achieved an awful lot (although I'm not convinced he's as good as some like to make out). Should 10 years of achievement be ignored because of one loss? P4P is all nonsense.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 25 Sep 2005, 06:16

If Roy beats Tarver, where will he be placed?

On Montiel? He has P4P skills but struggled last time - I actually thought he lost.

J · Post by J » 26 Sep 2005, 06:53

you all getitng to drawn into individual fioghters:

Whoemever is quoting Pac as higher than barerra well sorry that is nonsense, cos Eric beat Pac but lost to MAB more reently so sort that one out!!!

Fact is MAB lost nigh on 18 months ago and has come back to beat EM who beat Pac and continues to be the most impressiv out of the 3..

Based on achievement and P4P status you cant have PAC above MAB.

And ill repeat myself AGAIN, winning one fight at world class level does not make you p4p material you need to do this more than once.

So no taylor shouldnt be in above BH. nor should hatton be included at this stage if you are being consistent.

dbf · Post by **dbf** » 26 Sep 2005, 08:37

I thought p4p lists were based on a "who beats who" if every fighter was the same weight, also based on CURRENT form, not what they have achieved over, say, the last decade. Therefore:

1. Mayweather
2. Winky (who can negate that jab without the speed and skill of mayweather?)
3. MAB
4. Judah (looking good recently too fast for hopkins at this age if they were the same weight)
5. Toney (getting on a bit, but still has great skill if somewhat deterioated speed at heavy)
6.. Hopkins(unimpressed recently, far too cautious - but deserved at least a draw with Taylor)
7. Pacquio -
8. Hatton (a hard nights work for ANYONE based on the tszyu fight)
9. Morrales (looked bad against raheem at lightweight)
10. Corrales/Casamayor/Castillo (cant seperate them)

obviosuly, my reasons for the list are different to other peoples, but thats how i see it. feel free to dissect.

J · Post by J » 26 Sep 2005, 09:27

i dont agree p4p lists are definitely on the whole picture, achievement, longevity, opponents beaten, skills plus at the end of the list who beats who otherwise you have to have Pac morales, Marquez and MAB on the same number.

which would lets face it make it farcical.

suppose its personal but in my book anyway p4p ceritnaly oarent based soley on who beats who.

thats to me is a very shallow way of looking at it. no offence.

Lefthookhappy19 · Post by **Lefthookhappy19** » 26 Sep 2005, 10:57

J wrote:you all getitng to drawn into individual fioghters:

Whoemever is quoting Pac as higher than barerra well sorry that is nonsense, cos Eric beat Pac but lost to MAB more reently so sort that one out!!!

Fact is MAB lost nigh on 18 months ago and has come back to beat EM who beat Pac and continues to be the most impressiv out of the 3..

Based on achievement and P4P status you cant have PAC above MAB.

And ill repeat myself AGAIN, winning one fight at world class level does not make you p4p material you need to do this more than once.

So no taylor shouldnt be in above BH. nor should hatton be included at this stage if you are being consistent.

But Pac POUNDED Barrera, so much so I could never see Marco beating him. Barrera's beat Morales and 2 soft touches since Pac. Pac/Morales was super close as was Barrera/Morales 3. Ranking these 3 is tough and nothing is certain.