The Greatest Heavyweights never to be Champions?

Dempsonny · Post by **Dempsonny** » 30 Nov 2002, 00:37

This is one of my favorite boxing thoughts. Which heavyweights never got to be Champions, either because they weren't given a shot, given one when they were too old or they were just around at the wrong time. My list includes the Great Sam Langford, who Jack Johnson would not give a rematch, Harry Wills because Dempsey would not fight a black fighter, Joe Jeannette and Sam McVey both from the Johnson era. Cleveland Williams who came around at the wrong time (Ali), as did Quarry. On the other hand you have Larry Holmes who was champion when there was little competition. In fact he avoided the dangerous ones. He avoided first and foremost Gerrie Coetzee also Michael Dokes and Greg Page. He was actually beaten by Carl Williams but got the decision and made names out of no bodies. Renaldo "Mr." Snipes couldn't punch a lick, yet he dropped Holmes like a rock. An old Earnie Shavers threw a punch while he was leaning on the ropes and almost KO'd Holmes. Lorenzo Zanon and countless others had Holmes struggling before he beat them. He ridiculed Marciano but The Rock would of had him slumping in a corner by round 6.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 30 Nov 2002, 02:10

Jimmy Bivins is the first name that comes to my mind.Rated number one in both light heavy and heavyweight categories by Ring magazine at the same time for a while. Harold Johnson was much better than the challengers Patterson fought, but no way was Cus going to give him a shot, and I think he probably would have beaten Patterson. It was the most intriguing match up talked about at the time by well informed followers of the sweet science.

I'll just take a pass on the comments about Holmes, except to say that the only time Marciano would lay a glove on him would be when they shook hands before round one. (I've used this line about Ali vs Marciano too, but I can't resist the chance to use it again.)

dmille · Post by **dmille** » 30 Nov 2002, 04:33

Why is this thread entitled "greatest heavyweights that were never champion" when it should be called "let's trash Larry Holmes' career"?

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 07 Dec 2002, 02:37

Dempsey did fight one Black fighter in his prechampionsip career; John Lester Johnson. I think it was in New York. Won a ten round decision but newpaper reports found him unimpressive. It is true that Dempsey probably would have fought Wills, or at least he deserves the benefit of the doubt, as it defintely was Rickard who quashed the fight.

Dempsey never denied he refused to fight Langford, but to be fair to him the match was proposed when Demspey was still inexperienced and not ready for a fighter of Langford's quality. I'm not all that much of a Dempsey fan, but I think he should be given a fair assessment.

wouter · Post by **wouter** » 08 Dec 2002, 08:10

As the champion Dempsey was ( or should have been ) calling the shots, you can't blame his promotor for Dempsey not facing Wills or Langford. The blame should go to Dempsey himself and rightly so.

barry · Post by **barry** » 08 Dec 2002, 16:52

"As the champion Dempsey was ( or should have been ) calling the shots"

When Tyson won the Heavyweight Title who do you think was calling the shots in his title defenses...Tyson, or Don King?

barry · Post by **barry** » 08 Dec 2002, 16:54

Also, for the record, Dempsey fought three black fighters in his pre-championship days.

wouter · Post by **wouter** » 09 Dec 2002, 07:31

As the Heavyweight Champion, THE toughest sonafabitch in the world, you can't say "I want to face so and so, but my promotor won't let me".
As for Dempsey facing three black fighters in his pre-championship career; well... Dempsey wasn't exactly in the position then where he could choose his opponents, was he.

Tomato-Can · Post by **Tomato-Can** » 09 Dec 2002, 09:35

I think Wouter makes a good point there. I dont remember anyone telling Foreman or Ali who they could or could not fight.

Some other good fighters not to win the title were.

Zora Folley
Eddie Machan
Ron Lyle
Jerry Quarry

Folley and Machan were ducked by Patterson. Lyle and Quarry came along at the wrong time.

barry · Post by **barry** » 09 Dec 2002, 20:39

If Don King would not have wanted Tyson to fight Spinks, then that fight probally would have never happened...unless Tyson broke away from Don King. Big time promoter's and managers like King, Kearns & Rickard call the shots, not the fighters. Of course most fighters have a big say-so in who they fight, but it's the promoters and managers that decide who fights who. Concerning Dempsey and Wills, Wills was never beating down Dempsey's door for a shot. He mostly was content with being modestly quiet while his manager made challenges. I don't recall reading anywhere that Wills was always at ringside during a Dempsey fight waiting for a chance to call out the champion. That's how Archie Moore got his shot at Marciano.

Invincible · Post by **Invincible** » 15 Dec 2002, 18:50

Chris Byrd is 214 lbs.....if he had fought in an earlier era he would have been considered a pretty big heavyweight....and I think would have been champ (especially in a weaker era)....also I think Ray Mercer has got to be up there along with many of the early black heavyweights who were denied their shots.....

dmille · Post by **dmille** » 15 Dec 2002, 18:59

Byrd might still become champion. If the boring version of Lewis shows up, Chris could sneak a decision past him with ease.

Mercer was not denied his shot. He had two chances when he fought title elimination bouts against Holmes and Jesse Ferguson (first fight). He showed up outta shape and got beaten.

It should have been Holy-Mercer for the title, not Holy-Holmes. It should have been Bowe-Mercer instead of Bowe-Ferguson. He blew it and he has no one to blame but himself.

Invincible · Post by **Invincible** » 15 Dec 2002, 22:14

I see what you're saying and I think you misunderstood the last bit of my post....I wasn't lumping Mercer in with the early black fighters who didn't get their shots....I was just mentioning him as a fighter who was one of the best to NOT become champion.....many lesser fighters have gotten a shot.....but Merciless Ray blew his...he always seemed to lose at the most inopportune times.....

dmille · Post by **dmille** » 16 Dec 2002, 00:48

I get what you mean now. I set past contenders into four categories.

The number one contender is the guy who truly deserves his shot. As you said many lesser fighters have gotten title shots. Every titleholder is gonna face their share of "softies", but how soft they really are is relative. Many of the guys who Joe Louis destroyed could have been threats against Tommy Burns or Marvin Hart.

A fighter can be world class and receive a deserved title shot. Guys such as Earnie Shavers and David Tua come to mind. A fighter that receives a title shot he doesn't deserve can still be world class. Guys like Ferguson and Bert Cooper belong here.

Then we have fighters that didn't receive title shots. Many from the early 20th century deserved shots. There are also many on the same level as Mercer or Cooper; they were world class heavyweights that were legit contenders, but never rated number one.

Ringo · Post by **Ringo** » 18 Dec 2002, 09:03

Oscar Bonavena is easily the best boxer never to be the champ, he was only ever knocked out once, against ali in the 15th, and he knocked down joe frazier twice in the 2nd round in there rematch, he lost on points....
So little is said about him since his death... which was under suspicious circumstances....
does anyone know where i could find pics, posters, info, biographical info, or memorabilia about him

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 19 Dec 2002, 02:28

Bonavena used to drive me crazy.The natural talent was there. He was strong, a good puncher, had size..and the extras a good figher needs. But he didn't train and wouldn't learn to box.By box I don't mean him turning into a fancy dan...he just didn't..or wouldn't let a trainer develop a style in keeping with his natural gifts. If he had he would have beaten Frazier and the other guys around. He was terrible when he was matched too soon against Zora Folley, but improved enough to beat him in a rematch. Wasted talent, wasted life.

Tommy Gunn · Post by **Tommy Gunn** » 19 Dec 2002, 12:58

Golota was never been a champion but he had all the tools to be one, look at the 2 fights agaist Bowe.

cybox · Post by **cybox** » 19 Dec 2002, 13:08

Carl 'The Truth" Williams had the talents to be champion

James Quick Tillis could have been champion if he had not have left his heart in the dressing room that night

Tommy Gunn · Post by **Tommy Gunn** » 19 Dec 2002, 13:14

Williams was a great boxer, he had a very good jab, and reminds me of Larry Holmes back in the 80's.

Tillis, it was alright, Tommy Morrison beat his ass in 1 round! 3 times Tillis went down. Altough TIllis went to UD agaist Tyson a few years earlier than the Tommy fight.

Dickhead · Post by **Dickhead** » 29 Dec 2002, 04:15

Billy Miske
Quarry
Langford
Peter Jackson
Harry Wills
Young Stribling
Eddie Machen
Tony Galento

zurdo · Post by **zurdo** » 01 Jan 2003, 15:29

Cleveland (Big Cat)Williams was very unlucky not to have won the title
His early record is very impressive...Patterson wanted no part of this guy
Williams had the misfortune of coming up at the same time as Sonny Liston.... who really had his number
Then he was shot by a cop....
By the time he fought Ali he was just a shell of his former self

UNDASPUTED · Post by **UNDASPUTED** » 01 Jan 2003, 17:31

Langford
Wills
McVey
Peter Jackson
Larry Gains

safedweller · Post by **safedweller** » 05 Jan 2003, 21:42

I have a soft place for Cleveland Williams. Definately could have been a champ with slightly different circumstances.

Ringo · Post by **Ringo** » 22 Jan 2003, 11:45

Tillis threw the fight against Tommy Morrison, and he beat Tyson except alot of mafia had there money on Tyson so they couldnt give Tillis the decision. Big Cat was good enuff and probly would hav had it for a short amount of time if patterson didnt keep ducking a fight with him. Bonavena was easily good enough, he was shot at 33 and probly would hav had a rematch with ali if he hadnt been. Also Chuck Wepner deserved a belt just for determination..... he knocked out Ernie Terrell in 4

Holyfield Headbutt · Post by **Holyfield Headbutt** » 22 Jan 2003, 13:57

Tommy Loughran

The Greatest Heavyweights never to be Champions?

The Greatest Heavyweights never to be Champions?

re

re

re

Byrd & Mercer

Oscar Bonavena

golota

the champs