World Series of Boxing

[GStalker]

I just wonder if WSB results will be enlisted as professional bouts or not. Or, to make a long story short: will those results be listed by BoxRec?

Thanks in advance for your reply...

[sandis]

No IT IS NOT PRO BOXING

[yu265545]

What makes it different from pro boxing?

The World Series of Boxing involves:
1. Five to Seven 3 minute rounds
2. No headgear and bare-chested
3. Scored by 3 judges using 10 point must system
4. Boxers receive compensation

Fightfax counts the results as professional bouts (see thread in main forum). Boxrec should count them too.

[Petu v.d. Pajm]

What makes it different from pro boxing?

The World Series of Boxing involves:
1. Five to Seven 3 minute rounds
2. No headgear and bare-chested
3. Scored by 3 judges using 10 point must system
4. Boxers receive compensation

Fightfax counts the results as professional bouts (see thread in main forum). Boxrec should count them too.

Well, those fighters live in different universe as long as boxing careers & records go...

They are contracted to AIBA/WSB and can not contest outside their realm.

Neither are any independent, non-WSB boxers capable of fighting in WSB competition.

Thus adding them to same database, rankings etc. would only cause confusion.

I am personally all open to add WSB results to BoxRec, but ONLY if they have separate section so that they do not disturb ratings, come up in search machine (unless search is specifically made for WSB-fighters) etc. That would probably take quite a bit of coding though...

[yu265545]

What makes it different from pro boxing?

The World Series of Boxing involves:
1. Five to Seven 3 minute rounds
2. No headgear and bare-chested
3. Scored by 3 judges using 10 point must system
4. Boxers receive compensation

Fightfax counts the results as professional bouts (see thread in main forum). Boxrec should count them too.

Well, those fighters live in different universe as long as boxing careers & records go...

They are contracted to AIBA/WSB and can not contest outside their realm.

Neither are any independent, non-WSB boxers capable of fighting in WSB competition.

Thus adding them to same database, rankings etc. would only cause confusion.

I am personally all open to add WSB results to BoxRec, but ONLY if they have separate section so that they do not disturb ratings, come up in search machine (unless search is specifically made for WSB-fighters) etc. That would probably take quite a bit of coding though...

That is not true. Two French professional boxers joined the WSB just today, and a few weeks ago an undefeated Italian heavyweight Matteo Modugno (12-0, 6kos) has joined the WSB. They allow professionals to fight for the WSB as long as they have less than 15 professional fights. So all of the sudden they are not fighting professional fights?

Yes the boxers have restrictive contracts but they are still fighting professional fights. Many boxers have restrictive contracts with respect to promoters or television networks - the issue is the nature of the boxing. Boxrec counted the Contender reality show bouts as professional even though the fighters were not allowed to fight outside that tournament. How is WSB any different?

Just because they are in the gimmick of a team based competition does not make it non-professional. Prizefighter is deemed professional and counted by Boxrec and those are 3 round fights. These are 5-7 round fights without headgear, small gloves, pro scoring, and most importantly, the fighters are paid.

Showtime had the guts to say that Raushee Warren was 8-0 and Terell Gausha was 5-2 professionals because they fought in the WSB.

These are professional bouts - pure and simple. Fight Fax says the fights are professional. The results should be counted by Boxrec.

[sandis]

What FightFax says about results of Los Angeles vs Dynamo Moscow last year? Do you know that AIBA WSB did not recognize results given by California judges and gave victory to Dynamo a month later? What Fight Fax says about it? Do you know that AIBA WSB gives WTKO1 if opponent did not enter the ring? Is it all possible in professional boxing? AIBA WSB is not professional boxing. This is amateur boxing without helmets made by amateur boxing organization. They have their AIBA site to record these bouts.

[yu265545]

What FightFax says about results of Los Angeles vs Dynamo Moscow last year? Do you know that AIBA WSB did not recognize results given by California judges and gave victory to Dynamo a month later? What Fight Fax says about it? Do you know that AIBA WSB gives WTKO1 if opponent did not enter the ring? Is it all possible in professional boxing? AIBA WSB is not professional boxing. This is amateur boxing without helmets made by amateur boxing organization. They have their AIBA site to record these bouts.

If this is really just "amateur boxing without helmets" then why are professional boxers like Matteo Modugno participating? Are they going back to being amateur boxers all of a sudden?

AIBA is no longer just an amateur boxing organization. They are most definitely now also a professional boxing organization. According to the President C K Wu: "First of all, I would like to change AIBA as the ultimate responsible body for the boxer's entire boxing career including amateur and professional". In fact, AIBA now wants to eliminate the use of the word "amateur". According to this memo dated October 12, 2012:

In 2007, at the AIBA Extraordinary Congress held in Chicago, AIBA had already
declared not to use the word of “Amateur” in the organization any longer. Now, even
further with the launch of APB, the concept of “amateur boxing” will no longer exist.
http://www.aiba.org/documents/site1/Let ... 202012.pdf

So this "amateur" body organization is now themselves saying they are no longer amateur. The AIBA is now a professional boxing commission, sanctioning body, promoter, and manager all rolled in one. The WSB is a professional tournament involving professional boxers.

The most important factor is that they are PAID. Here is the definition of "amateur" by Dictionary.com:

1. a person who engages in a study, sport, or other activity for pleasure rather than for financial benefit or professional reasons.
2. an athlete who has never competed for payment or for a monetary prize.

Just like professional boxers, WSB participants get paid whether they win or lose. It does not make a difference whether they are paid per bout or paid by month or year. As soon as you get paid to box, you are a professional. This is logic.

So you have PAID professionals boxing a professional style of boxing (no computerized scoring, 10 point must system). How can any logical person say that this is amateur boxing?

If Fight fax makes mistakes about selective recording that is their problem. BOXREC is the greatest professional boxing database in the world. You greatly diminish your credibility by failing to record WSB bouts as professional bouts.

[sandis]

Yes. These boxers will be amateur boxers again and cannot return to professional boxing without AIBA permission.

[locoxelbox]

I think the professionals who fight in WSB can only fight in WSB and APB, not in Olympic style/amateur boxing?

Argentina Condors also have several pros in their team:

Maximiliano Sosa, 7-1, 3 KOs
Facundo Simal, 11-0, 3 KOs
Brian Castano, 2-0, 2 KOs
German Benitez, 5-0, 2 KOs

[m1kee50]

if you couldnt go from WSB to fighting say Pavlik, without some sort of rigmarole... then its not pro boxing in the same way. equivalent but separate is the best way to put it

[yu265545]

The only reason they couldn't go from WSB to fighting Pavlik is because they are novice professionals. A professional boxer with under 10 fights would also not be able to jump right into a fight with Pavlik.

I just watched the USA Knockouts vs. British Lionhearts. There was NO DIFFERENCE between what I saw and any other professional fight. It was IDENTICAL.

[Petu v.d. Pajm]

[quote="yu265545"] The only reason they couldn't go from WSB to fighting Pavlik is because they are novice professionals. A professional boxer with under 10 fights would also not be able to jump right into a fight with Pavlik. [/quote]

No, it's not jut that thay are novice pros. AIBA want to steal ALL boxing in the world under their umbrella - they decide who can compete, who can promote etc. They are not even letting National Amateur Boxing Committees to run fights under WSB rules.

Neither can a professional fighter join their competition. Yes, they have accepted some pros to move to WSB, but based on their rules it is only by case-by-case consideration...

WSB is NOT professional boxing as we know it. Study their policies and you will see the difference...

[ChicagoBoxing]

The ABC considers them professional records.

[Andy]

The ABC considers them professional records.

Good for them. BoxRec does not.

[toddh5220]

The ABC considers them professional records.

Good for them. BoxRec does not.

The ABC considers them professional records.

This is why Boxrec is not considered an "official" database, but an information sight, and fight fax is. I think Boxrec diminishes their credibility when they have a boxer listed at 2-0 who is announced at 10-0 (ie. Raushee Warren) to say they cannot box who they want is a ludicrous defense, if boxer could box who they wanted then why can't the Brando Rios V. Adrian Broner fight be made? Because Top Rank and Golden Boy will not allow it.

The ABC considers them pros, as do several state commissions (FL and CA) not only do they receive compensation, they are LICENSED and they all carry a federal ID card, to say they are not professional boxers is pure ignorance, they just fight for a different sanctioning body/promoter than other fighters.

[yu265545]

I completely agree. All you have to do is watch the WSB - is there even a slight difference than what we see on ESPN, HBO, etc.?

I wonder whether AIBA has asked Boxrec NOT to count the bouts in their database. If the boxers knew that their fights would count on the most widely used boxing record database in the world, how many of them would risk their undefeated records to participate? If I had any hope of a pro career, I most certainly would not. John Joe Nevin now has a loss in WSB. How do you think he would react if he saw his record on Boxrec as being 0-1? The WSB would not be attracting the top amateurs if they counted as pro fights.

Boxrec is being extremely UNFAIR to professional boxers who climb into the ring and risk their professional records. By refusing to include WSB bouts in the database, are giving the WSB fighters a free pass. They can fight like a professional (no headgear, vests, small gloves), earn money like a professional, be judged like a professional, but have ZERO consequences of losing. Other amateurs who are not invited to participate in WSB have no such luxury -one loss and their career is already facing an uphill battle. This is just plain wrong.

AIBA does not want this to be considered professional, but BOXREC must follow its own standards. If WSB is not professional, then why are fights fought under the U.S. CONTENDER tournament in the U.S. considered professional? Those fighters also had restricted contracts and could only fight other boxers participating in the television tournament.

The ABC considers them professional records.

Good for them. BoxRec does not.

The ABC considers them professional records.

This is why Boxrec is not considered an "official" database, but an information sight, and fight fax is. I think Boxrec diminishes their credibility when they have a boxer listed at 2-0 who is announced at 10-0 (ie. Raushee Warren) to say they cannot box who they want is a ludicrous defense, if boxer could box who they wanted then why can't the Brando Rios V. Adrian Broner fight be made? Because Top Rank and Golden Boy will not allow it.

The ABC considers them pros, as do several state commissions (FL and CA) not only do they receive compensation, they are LICENSED and they all carry a federal ID card, to say they are not professional boxers is pure ignorance, they just fight for a different sanctioning body/promoter than other fighters.

[toddh5220]

[quote="yu265545"]I completely agree. All you have to do is watch the WSB - is there even a slight difference than what we see on ESPN, HBO, etc.?

I wonder whether AIBA has asked Boxrec NOT to count the bouts in their database. If the boxers knew that their fights would count on the most widely used boxing record database in the world, how many of them would risk their undefeated records to participate? If I had any hope of a pro career, I most certainly would not. John Joe Nevin now has a loss in WSB. How do you think he would react if he saw his record on Boxrec as being 0-1? The WSB would not be attracting the top amateurs if they counted as pro fights.

Boxrec is being extremely UNFAIR to professional boxers who climb into the ring and risk their professional records. By refusing to include WSB bouts in the database, are giving the WSB fighters a free pass. They can fight like a professional (no headgear, vests, small gloves), earn money like a professional, be judged like a professional, but have ZERO consequences of losing. Other amateurs who are not invited to participate in WSB have no such luxury -one loss and their career is already facing an uphill battle. This is just plain wrong.

AIBA does not want this to be considered professional, but BOXREC must follow its own standards. If WSB is not professional, then why are fights fought under the U.S. CONTENDER tournament in the U.S. considered professional? Those fighters also had restricted contracts and could only fight other boxers participating in the television tournament.



It goes to show the informational database point I made before. This is why Boxrec is not used by the state commissions, they want to determine who they should report, and should not. The truth is Boxrec is informational at best, and inaccurate as well. When the Olympians debuted a few weeks ago where the 2 boxers given 0-0 records? No they were shown to have 8-0 and 6-2 records. To say they are "novice" pros is ludicrous as well, if that were the case then the first 10 fights would not be counted on Boxrec, which we all know is false as there are plenty of 1-0 and 0-1 boxers; I would also point to the fact that most of the international kids have 200-300 amateur fights which would make them a fighter like Gamboa, yet Boxrec recognized him right away. AIBA is merely a sanctioning body of sorts and is no different than the rest of the alphabet soup of sanctioning bodies, and various titles etc. For Boxrec not to recognize pro fighters, holding pro licenses, with federal ID cards, just goes to show that it should not be as respected as some of you hold it, it's for the fans not for the profession of boxing.

[stac]

hmmmmm....after consiering all the facts i think it would be best to put wsb bouts on the guys record but show them as such...i.e. run a parallel database with these fights on...

[yu265545]

I just watched the interview of AIBA Marketing Cheif Uwe Alten on Boxrec News:

http://news.boxrec.com/news/2012/ever-w ... -all-about

Mr. Alten states as follows:

"We have 218 boxers particiapting...and they are all professionals. We want to show from the AIBA side is that AIBA really goes professional. That means that these guys you see tonight are all paid. They have a paid job and they are professional boxers because they are just doing boxing, that's it."

Thus AIBA themselves are saying that fighters who participate in WSB are professional.

[toddh5220]

hmmmmm....after consiering all the facts i think it would be best to put wsb bouts on the guys record but show them as such...i.e. run a parallel database with these fights on...

Why go to such lengths? They are professional. Plain and simple, and under every definition. Just count the fights and stop lying to the public no matter what the reason.

[ChicagoBoxing]

Insanity at best, I always questioned what the hell was going on with WSOB .. I consider those matches professional as well.

[turbostar]

I see some are already being included.

http://boxrec.com/show_display.php?show_id=666922

Now if you are going to include them (FightFax does so BoxRec really should too) you should include all and not just some. Modugno for example has lost a couple of fights in WSB.

[yu265545]

Excellent news! Boxrec is making the right decision to include these professional fights in the database. This is a fair decision for all boxers - no longer can WSB boxers get paid to box professionally without having any consequences for losing.

Looking forward to the rest of the entries. Great job BOXREC team!

I see some are already being included.

http://boxrec.com/show_display.php?show_id=666922

Now if you are going to include them (FightFax does so BoxRec really should too) you should include all and not just some. Modugno for example has lost a couple of fights in WSB.

[Blue]

Eliminate boxing headgear? Why, of course
By TIM DAHLBERG, AP Sports Columnist Updated 4:16 pm, Wednesday, March 27, 2013
http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/Co ... z2OnyVF1WL

It's a bold move by the International Boxing Association, an organization once so corrupt
that boxing was almost thrown out of the Summer Games. Under the new leadership of
President Wu Ching-Kuo of Taiwan — now a member of the powerful IOC executive board
— boxing is doing its best to become relevant as an Olympic sport again.

[yu265545]

After the WSB wrapped up this weekend, I checked BOXREC to see if wins/losses had been updated into the database. Unfortunately, aside from the one card below, it seems they are not.

Have the BOXREC editors changed their minds about WSB and whether to count the fights in the database? All the evidence documented in this thread clearly establishes they are professional fights.

What are BOXREC's intentions with AIBA's upcoming APB initiative starting this fall?

I see some are already being included.

http://boxrec.com/show_display.php?show_id=666922

Now if you are going to include them (FightFax does so BoxRec really should too) you should include all and not just some. Modugno for example has lost a couple of fights in WSB.