Did Barry McGuigan retire too early?

[Ezzard]

Here’s what I remember of the fight having not seen it in 25 years.

McGuigan started fast. Thumped in that heavy left hook and some good rights but seemed unable to really hurt Cruz. Cruz meanwhile was always countering with accurate straight shots.

Barry’s biggest problem was that when he tried to box and conserve energy he was getting picked off. When he looked to swarm and bully Cruz he was clearly on top. BUT he wasn’t rocking or staggering Cruz and was burning up a lot of energy. I had Mcguigan winning at least 4 of the first 5 rounds.

Cruz visibly staggers Barry in the 6th or 7th… wins both rounds… Barry tries to reassert himself but he’s using up so much energy. And even though he’s the harder puncher Cruz’s shots seem to be having a much bigger effect.

McGuigan turns the tide back in his favour on volume. Sticks a couple more rounds in the banks until the 10th when he gets dropped.

Cruz then bashes him up for a round or 2 and Barry gets a point deducted. … then with Barry almost finished he comes back. Sweeps the 12th, 13th, 14th and gets his nose in front. But a bit like Hearns against Leonard the will to win has taken so much out of his body.

He loses the final round10-7 and loses the fight. Barry’s fight back from the brink was one of the best I’d ever seen.

[Crease]

Regarding his title loss, McGuigan was extremely dehydrated during the closure of the fight... Cruz\ grew up in the desert, he was used to it.

[Bricks]

Would have loved to have seen a rematch.....still i recall Cruz coming over to the UK to fight Paul Hodkinson some years later and being a shell of the man he had been that day in 1986

[Sven Tingstrom]

Regarding his title loss, McGuigan was extremely dehydrated during the closure of the fight... Cruz\ grew up in the desert, he was used to it.

You have never been to Fort Worth Texas USA have you? It is not a desert! Ha Ha!

[Rover]

Here’s what I remember of the fight having not seen it in 25 years.

McGuigan started fast. Thumped in that heavy left hook and some good rights but seemed unable to really hurt Cruz. Cruz meanwhile was always countering with accurate straight shots.

Barry’s biggest problem was that when he tried to box and conserve energy he was getting picked off. When he looked to swarm and bully Cruz he was clearly on top. BUT he wasn’t rocking or staggering Cruz and was burning up a lot of energy. I had Mcguigan winning at least 4 of the first 5 rounds.

Cruz visibly staggers Barry in the 6th or 7th… wins both rounds… Barry tries to reassert himself but he’s using up so much energy. And even though he’s the harder puncher Cruz’s shots seem to be having a much bigger effect.

McGuigan turns the tide back in his favour on volume. Sticks a couple more rounds in the banks until the 10th when he gets dropped.

Cruz then bashes him up for a round or 2 and Barry gets a point deducted. … then with Barry almost finished he comes back. Sweeps the 12th, 13th, 14th and gets his nose in front. But a bit like Hearns against Leonard the will to win has taken so much out of his body.

He loses the final round10-7 and loses the fight. Barry’s fight back from the brink was one of the best I’d ever seen.

I had it 3-2 McGuigan after 5 and thought Cruz won the 12th. McGuigan threw a ton in 13 and 14.

[Rover]

Regarding his title loss, McGuigan was extremely dehydrated during the closure of the fight... Cruz\ grew up in the desert, he was used to it.

Used to fighting in 125 degrees? He grew up in Texas.

[Controversial]

Living where it is in 90 F and fighting for the first time in 125 F are two different things.

90F is an average, not the maximum. It if hits 110F at its peak and drops to 70F at night the overall average is 90F.

You have never been to Fort Worth Texas USA have you? It is not a desert! Ha Ha!

Used to fighting in 125 degrees? He grew up in Texas.

I can't resist. You keep referring to Texas weather like it's completely different to Las Vegas, they are practically the same. The reason Texas is often referred to as a desert is one part of Texas is desert, part of the Chihuahuan Desert which borders Mexico. The Texas desert is about 14 million square acres in size.

Cruz was born in Fort Worth which is a populated city, not a desert in the traditional description of having sand dunes and camels walking around, however the temperatures they get are "desert like". They not only get high temperatures but high humidity as well which is very draining to the uninitiated. The temperatures are so high in fact that when they measured one week in 2011, and compared the temperatures in Fort Worth to deserts around the world, Fort Worth was actually hotter or on a par with the Mojave and Sahara deserts and hotter than the Gobi desert.

Region Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri
DFW Airport 107 108 110 105 104
Mojave Desert 108 113 114 113 112
Sahara Desert 103 111 113 111 111
Gobi Desert 86 86 86 87 84

Further to this some forums say Cruz actually lived in San Antonio which if true is even hotter than Fort Worth.

Therefore to say Cruz was no better prepared for the sun and heat than a ghost white Irishman is frankly ridiculous, regardless whether he had fought in those conditions before or not. The mere fact Cruz lived his entire life in searing heat and trained in those conditions, and McGuigan hadn't, makes a massive difference. It's plainly obvious McGuigan was at a massive disadvantage and a testament to him for fighting the way he did for 15 rounds and hearing the final bell.


.

[bollox]

Geezuz this shit still going? Once and for all....the reason Barry lost was because his manager was a numbskull in allowing him to fight in oppressive heat which he wasn't used to. Plus (in hindsight) he'd perhaps reached his summit and there was nowhere to go but downwards

[Ezzard]

Geezuz this shit still going? Once and for all....the reason Barry lost was because his manager was a numbskull in allowing him to fight in oppressive heat which he wasn't used to. Plus (in hindsight) he'd perhaps reached his summit and there was nowhere to go but downwards

The fact he didn't get straight back in there sort of backs this up.

[misterpunch]

if i take a up an offer to fight a bloke in west africa and the temperature on the day of the match reaches 150f (just to make a point) and the african i'm fighting has lived in temperatures of only 100f for much of his life - we both train well, i spend 3 weeks there before the fight - who is going to get knackered first?

i think i know

[Rover]

Living where it is in 90 F and fighting for the first time in 125 F are two different things.

90F is an average, not the maximum. It if hits 110F at its peak and drops to 70F at night the overall average is 90F.

You have never been to Fort Worth Texas USA have you? It is not a desert! Ha Ha!

Used to fighting in 125 degrees? He grew up in Texas.

I can't resist. You keep referring to Texas weather like it's completely different to Las Vegas, they are practically the same. The reason Texas is often referred to as a desert is one part of Texas is desert, part of the Chihuahuan Desert which borders Mexico. The Texas desert is about 14 million square acres in size.

Cruz was born in Fort Worth which is a populated city, not a desert in the traditional description of having sand dunes and camels walking around, however the temperatures they get are "desert like". They not only get high temperatures but high humidity as well which is very draining to the uninitiated. The temperatures are so high in fact that when they measured one week in 2011, and compared the temperatures in Fort Worth to deserts around the world, Fort Worth was actually hotter or on a par with the Mojave and Sahara deserts and hotter than the Gobi desert.

Region Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri
DFW Airport 107 108 110 105 104
Mojave Desert 108 113 114 113 112
Sahara Desert 103 111 113 111 111
Gobi Desert 86 86 86 87 84

Further to this some forums say Cruz actually lived in San Antonio which if true is even hotter than Fort Worth.

Therefore to say Cruz was no better prepared for the sun and heat than a ghost white Irishman is frankly ridiculous, regardless whether he had fought in those conditions before or not. The mere fact Cruz lived his entire life in searing heat and trained in those conditions, and McGuigan hadn't, makes a massive difference. It's plainly obvious McGuigan was at a massive disadvantage and a testament to him for fighting the way he did for 15 rounds and hearing the final bell.


.

And you've shown nothing close to 125 degrees. The final bell.

[Controversial]

And you've shown nothing close to 125 degrees. The final bell.

Actually in 1986 when they fought the highest officially recorded temperature in Las Vegas was 109.4 degrees. In 1986 the highest recorded temperature in Fort Worth was 105.8 degrees. Some sources state the temperature at ringside for the fight was actually around 108 degrees. The 125 degree reading that gets banded about isn't an official measurement.

[Rover]

And you've shown nothing close to 125 degrees. The final bell.

Actually in 1986 when they fought the highest officially recorded temperature in Las Vegas was 109.4 degrees. In 1986 the highest recorded temperature in Fort Worth was 105.8 degrees. Some sources state the temperature at ringside for the fight was actually around 108 degrees. The 125 degree reading that gets banded about isn't an official measurement.

It's an addition of ringside temperatures plus all of the lights over the ring.
Perhaps it was higher.
And again, "living in" and "fighting in" are two very different things.

[Rover]

Not if you don't fight in anything like those conditions.

[Rover]

Not if you don't fight in anything like those conditions.

Don't be ridiculous. McGuiagan comes from a climate that is nearly half of that at FW. You're just being argumentative.

No, I'm not. Cruz didn't live in 125 degrees, much less fight in it.

[Rover]

1. "Living in" does not equal "fighting in."
2. FW that year had a high of approx. 105. That's a 20-degree difference (and that includes going 15 rounds).
Cruz was not used to that.

[Rover]

1. "Living in" does not equal "fighting in."
2. FW that year had a high of approx. 105. That's a 20-degree difference (and that includes going 15 rounds).
Cruz was not used to that.

Again, no-one said he was. I'm giving up, you're either ignoring what I'm saying on purpose to argue with me or you too stupid to understand what is being said.

Neither.

[Rover]

Because I've read nothing to indicate that Cruaz had ever fought in anything close to that. He lived in a place whose hottest temperature that year was 20 degrees lower. Living somewhere and being able to parlay that into 15 rounds doesn't add up.
McGuigan fought Taylor in temperatures similar to where Cruz lived. Taylor, who was from a warm state, North Carolina, was the one who was affected by the heat.
McGuigan didn't show negative effects.
Of course, the Cruz fight added 20 degrees. Neither had experienced that before or anything close to it.

[Rover]

Because I've read nothing to indicate that Cruaz had ever fought in anything close to that. He lived in a place whose hottest temperature that year was 20 degrees lower. Living somewhere and being able to parlay that into 15 rounds doesn't add up.
McGuigan fought Taylor in temperatures similar to where Cruz lived. Taylor, who was from a warm state, North Carolina, was the one who was affected by the heat.
McGuigan didn't show negative effects.
Of course, the Cruz fight added 20 degrees. Neither had experienced that before or anything close to it.

Bernard Taylor, in Belfast was close to FW temperatures?

In the ring, yes. Shenkel discussed the oppressive heat before the fight began and throughout it, so it wasn't like it was brought up when Taylor quit just to make an excuse for Taylor.
100 degrees is indeed an equivalent of Fort Worth temperatures.

[Rover]

If it's in a hot arena under television lights in a ring, I certainly could buy that. It (the awful heat) was discussed looong before Taylor showed effects, so I have no reason to disbelieve it, as there would've been no reason to have made an excuse for Taylor at that point. In fact, it was mentioned even when Taylor was winning early.

[Rover]

I brought up the Taylor fight because (according to the commentary, anyway) McGuigan wasn't having issues fighting in temperatures Cruz was used to living in (well, when it got to be the hottest).
I think the way to deal with different conditions is to acclamate oneself--for example, altitude. Hopkins clearly did this v. Mercado in the first fight in Ecuador and was coming on late, as just one example. Mercado was clearly used to fighting in that altitude; he'd fought in Ecuador and was from there.
Cruz hadn't fought in anything like that. When there is such a disparity in temperature, I don't think having lived in a place with a high temperature 20 degrees below where you're fighting is all that helpful.

[Rover]

No, but you must therefore concede someone who comes from a place that at it's hottest is forty degrees below that is going to have even more trouble?

I think that when there's that much of a disparity both are affected equally. Living in a place and fighting in those conditions are quite different.
Also, given where some of the top fighters were from in that era (Mexico, Ghana, Puerto Rico, Panama), those were some hot places. So he'd have had to deal with those conditions (at least conditions hotter than where he grew up) at some point, and he was dealing with them fine in the Taylor fight (very hot indoor venue).

[Rover]

And living in conditions v. fighting in them aren't the same.
I've never read that Cruz had fought in 100 degrees before.

[Rover]

But Barry was having no issues fighting in 100. I don't buy that if you haven't fought even in 100 before, your body will have an easier time acclamating to fighting in 125.

[Rover]

Not if neither had fought in those conditions.