Felix Trinidad - Weight Class: ATTN BLUE

JCS · Post by **JCS** » 13 Sep 2005, 15:02

Since he's retired now, don't you think he should be recognized as a Welterweight?

jyuza · Post by **jyuza** » 16 Sep 2005, 09:37

i think so.
he could be rated in the 3 best @ welter of all time

barry · Post by **barry** » 17 Sep 2005, 04:16

I think Trinidad should be rated as a welterweight also, but it seems that a lot of older fighters constantly get switched around weights, which I don't know if it is another editor doing it, or a program in the system. I noticed yesterday that Wilfredo Gomez is ranked at Jr. Welterweight, when he most certainly should be ranked at Jr. Featherweight as he had 18 defenses at that weight and actually only had probably one fight his entire career at jr. welter.

JCS · Post by **JCS** » 20 Sep 2005, 15:40

Blue.. any thoughts on this? Also, as long as Oscar is inactive.. He should probably be at 147 as well.

computerrank · Post by **computerrank** » 20 Sep 2005, 17:02

barry wrote:I think Trinidad should be rated as a welterweight also, but it seems that a lot of older fighters constantly get switched around weights, which I don't know if it is another editor doing it, or a program in the system. I noticed yesterday that Wilfredo Gomez is ranked at Jr. Welterweight, when he most certainly should be ranked at Jr. Featherweight as he had 18 defenses at that weight and actually only had probably one fight his entire career at jr. welter.

This is definitely not done by the program. It is to the editors to assign boxers to a weight division.

JCS · Post by **JCS** » 20 Sep 2005, 18:29

jcs83md wrote:Blue.. any thoughts on this? Also, as long as Oscar is inactive.. He should probably be at 147 as well.

While we're at it, we could argue for Michael Spinks to LHW.

JCS · Post by **JCS** » 21 Sep 2005, 10:36

JCC Sr, now that hes retired.. probably shouldnt be a WELTERWEIGHT.

JCS · Post by **JCS** » 22 Sep 2005, 10:01

I think I'll just bump this till I get an authoritative response.

JCS · Post by **JCS** » 26 Sep 2005, 10:35

Bump.

Maybe we should etch some kind of system down for these issues.?

medic · Post by **medic** » 27 Sep 2005, 15:36

This is what Trinidad's bio should look like. I had already submitted this some time ago.

Roberto Duran
Sex Male
Nationality Panamanian
Alias Manos de Piedra / El Cholo
License No. NY001700
Hometown Panama City, Panama
Birthplace El Chorrillo, Panama
Division Super Middleweight
Former Lightweight Champion
Former Welterweight Champion
Former Lt. Middleweight Champion
Former Middleweight Champion
Date of Birth 1951-06-16
Reach 66”
Stance Orthodox
Height 5' 7
Trainer Rigoberto Garibaldi
Manager Tony Gonzalez
W 103 (70 ko's) | L 16 | D 0 | Total 119
Last edit - matt

Using this bio you should be able to "rate" in multiple divisions. I can't believe the amount of time spent on the "ratings." As you can see this bio addresses where Duran finished his career and also his accomplishments. If Felix Trinidad is "rated as a welterweight, then all of his fights past Sep 99 would be used to calculate his "rating" as a Welterweight. What good is that? Should Floyd Mayweater decide to fight Roy Jones or Antonio Tarver in his very next fight, I'm reasonably certain that he would lose. Why? The weight difference. But I can change Floyd's weight class to Lt. Heavyweight and I'm sure he'd get a good rating because the program would calculate all of his opponents as Lt. Heavyweights and compare his points to a fighter who has fought only Lt. Heavyweights. Probably the most important factor in the ratings is what was done at a certain weight but there is no real use for weights in the ratings program. What I am suggesting with my example is to modify the program to accomodate the information rather than modify the information to suit the program.

Medic
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JCS · Post by **JCS** » 27 Sep 2005, 15:51

medic,

I see your point. But as it stands now, I think we can both agree that Felix earned a large majority of his rating at the welterweight level.

medic · Post by **medic** » 27 Sep 2005, 16:49

No, I really don't belive you do. If Felix Trinidad is changed to welterweight then his fights against David Reid, Mamdou Thiam, Fernando Vargas, William Joppy, Bernard Hopkins, Hacine Cherifi, Ricardo Mayorga & Ronlad Wright become Welterweight fights and are used to calculate his Welterweight record. These were all Lt. Middle or Middleweight fights. Therefore any of these fights used in the calculation of his "Welterweight" record renders the result invalid.
A gallon of water weighs 8.3 lbs. On Boxrec if a quantity of water weighed 10 lbs we would call it a gallon as if it were 8.3 lbs because (1) that's what it's closest to. (2) That's what it wants to be. (3) That's what the saleman said it was. (4) It was announced as such, etc, etc, etc. When you try to pour the jug of water into a one gallon container there is some excess. EUREEKA!!!!!! THAT'S IT.!!! We can justify including in a ranking all the fights that occurred in excess of the "desired" weight class by calling the excess pounds "spillage." Weightweight limit plus spillage = Welterweight ranking.

medic · Post by **medic** » 27 Sep 2005, 17:05

Actually, a more accurate method for calculating the ratings already exists on Boxrec. It is the division field in the bout sheet. Utilizing that field instead of division in bio would enable the programmer to stop the Welterweight rating of Trinidad at his last welterweight fight 9/99 and report it as of that date, and continue on utilizing the same method through each successive division.

Medic

JCS · Post by **JCS** » 28 Sep 2005, 08:52

Let me repeat myself.

I understand your point.. but I believe, until we get a new methodology, he should be at welterweight while we're using the current one.

The all-time rating system now, as it stands, is only concerned with the fighters' prime period (where he accomplished his biggest wins). Anything before/after that period, doesn't mean a thing. Which again, is why he should be at welterweight.

medic · Post by **medic** » 28 Sep 2005, 11:43

Prime period - Judgement call. Trinidad's prime period in my opinion is his last 8 fights where he fought the most formidable fighters in the world. Others may not agree. But regardless of that point, Lt. Middleweight & Middleweight fights should not be used to calculate an "All Time Welterweight Rating" which is what happens when you change his Bio division to welterweight. If the points total of his last 8 opponents are used in the calculation then you may have thousands of fights in the Lt. Middle and above calculated as welterweight. If editors want to waste their time on this nonsense, fine. But I object to modifying information to accomplish this (yes, even on retired fighters) when you can see in my initial post that it isn't necessary. Just because you can do it doesn't mean you should.

Elmer

JCS · Post by **JCS** » 28 Sep 2005, 12:16

medic wrote:Prime period - Judgement call. Trinidad's prime period in my opinion is his last 8 fights where he fought the most formidable fighters in the world. Others may not agree. But regardless of that point, Lt. Middleweight & Middleweight fights should not be used to calculate an "All Time Welterweight Rating" which is what happens when you change his Bio division to welterweight. If the points total of his last 8 opponents are used in the calculation then you may have thousands of fights in the Lt. Middle and above calculated as welterweight. If editors want to waste their time on this nonsense, fine. But I object to modifying information to accomplish this (yes, even on retired fighters) when you can see in my initial post that it isn't necessary. Just because you can do it doesn't mean you should.

Elmer

It was a judgement call which is now part of the all-time rating calculation, so it is technically now a scientific matter.

(As of today, the 28th) I believe we take the 14 highest-ranked opponents at the time of that fighter wins, use the earliest date and the latest date in this array... and you have the fighter's prime period.

Anything outside of those dates is not calculated into the all-time rating.. right this second.

medic · Post by **medic** » 28 Sep 2005, 13:37

Huh....? Bernard Hopkins I believe would be his highest ranked opponent, Oh, but he didn't win. What if the majority of that 14 weren't welterweights? So, Lets use William Joppy. His ranking as Middleweight Champion has to be higher than most of the opponents in Trinidad's Welterweight defenses. The totals of his opponents going into each fight: 534-222-17. 773 fights. William Joppy never fought at Welterweight. If Joppy's score is based upon the 14 best "records" of his opponents, then what is the scientific formula for padded records and the inclusion for good fighters with poor records such as Freddie Pendleton. Regardless, all of this activity that took place between 160 & 175 lbs is somehow "scientifically relatable" to Felix Trinidad's all time ranking as a Welterweight. So let me summarize with this scientific formula: William Joppy's 14/38 best fights =% of 773 opponents bouts where Joppy won (does not include weight classes of Joppy's opponents) = all time rating @ prime weight class (Middleweight) to be used in the calculation of Felix Trinidad's all time ranking at welterweight. Is that close?

JCS · Post by **JCS** » 28 Sep 2005, 13:59

medic wrote:Huh....? Bernard Hopkins I believe would be his highest ranked opponent, Oh, but he didn't win. What if the majority of that 14 weren't welterweights? So, Lets use William Joppy. His ranking as Middleweight Champion has to be higher than most of the opponents in Trinidad's Welterweight defenses. The totals of his opponents going into each fight: 534-222-17. 773 fights. William Joppy never fought at Welterweight. If Joppy's score is based upon the 14 best "records" of his opponents, then what is the scientific formula for padded records and the inclusion for good fighters with poor records such as Freddie Pendleton. Regardless, all of this activity that took place between 160 & 175 lbs is somehow "scientifically relatable" to Felix Trinidad's all time ranking as a Welterweight. So let me summarize with this scientific formula: William Joppy's 14/38 best fights =% of 773 opponents bouts where Joppy won (does not include weight classes of Joppy's opponents) = all time rating @ prime weight class (Middleweight) to be used in the calculation of Felix Trinidad's all time ranking at welterweight. Is that close?

Yeah, thats pretty close. A part of their rating is also calculated based on the quality of opponent a fighter loses to in that prime period. I am also working on a SMALL, but subtle and effective way to give out bonus points if you will, based on quality of W/L record and Win % which will only benefit the very top fighters. I know it doesn't sound very scientific, but I have ran the results and it makes things a lot clearer, especially in the HW division. I have passed this to computerrank and I believe it will make the all-time rating system much more complete as there has to be some kind of subjectivity involved in such a system.

The problem with splitting all this up between weight-classes is... what happens to guys like JCC and Oscar, who spent various parts of their careers in many different weight classes? That would be very difficult to process and may create problems as they have all had a relatively small amount of fights when compared to their career as a whole. Fighters with 6-7 big-time fights could end up Top 5 in each weight class if handled incorrectly. We can't have that, based on such small datasets.

Think of the weight-class designation as a reminder of when this fighter was at his best. Its kind of like the sports hall of fame, where a player who has played for multiple teams will be inducted with the uniform he wore when he accomplished the most and played the longest for.

In short, the system you have suggested would be extremely complicated to handle and would involve a massive overhaul to re-work.

Felix Trinidad - Weight Class: ATTN BLUE

Felix Trinidad - Weight Class: ATTN BLUE

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