John L. Sullivan was good for his time and that was it, he would have not even been a very good sparing partner for heavy's of the last 80 years. Jack Johnson would have beaten him silly, as would have Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey as well as Gene Tunney would have to.
Have any of you ever seen any live footage of gentleman Jim Corbett fighting? I did and he beat Sullivan, and he was useless, for their time when only whites were allowed to fight other whites, and usually only whites with some stature, even if they were not the best were allowed to fight certain big fights. Lower weights was one thing but the heavies were how white America looked upon itself as far as the heavyweight champion went. Besides this was the begining of boxing and not that many fighters were around then as was just past then as the years went by and more and more immigrants gravitated toward the fight game.
cheers M.O.
John L. Sullivan against today's boxers
Hey Silkov, let me be more precise, the art of boxing is slowly evolving. The sport of boxing is heading full steam into the crapper.
Totally agree with you Boxbuzz; but only with the heavyweight and only for the last 10 years or so.
John L. Sullivan was good for his time and that was it, he would have not even been a very good sparing partner for heavy's of the last 80 years. Jack Johnson would have beaten him silly, as would have Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey as well as Gene Tunney would have to.
I would bet a top ten middleweight of today would have taken Sullivan to school.
Totally agree with you Boxbuzz; but only with the heavyweight and only for the last 10 years or so.
John L. Sullivan was good for his time and that was it, he would have not even been a very good sparing partner for heavy's of the last 80 years. Jack Johnson would have beaten him silly, as would have Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey as well as Gene Tunney would have to.
I would bet a top ten middleweight of today would have taken Sullivan to school.
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BrocktonBlockbuster49
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Rory McCloskey
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sullivan wasnt like most other fighters of his time though.... he helped form the art of boxing.
I agree Rory. A true pioneer and one of the most influential fighters of all time. Still, his style was way to primative for fighters of today. Thats not putting him down its being realistic. For instance, Jim Thorpe wouldnt even qualify for the Olympics today.Thats not putting down this great American its just being realistic.
I agree Rory. A true pioneer and one of the most influential fighters of all time. Still, his style was way to primative for fighters of today. Thats not putting him down its being realistic. For instance, Jim Thorpe wouldnt even qualify for the Olympics today.Thats not putting down this great American its just being realistic.
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Rory McCloskey
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BrocktonBlockbuster49
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Rory McCloskey
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Rory McCloskey
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iceman21287
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Whatever you think about John Sullivan, there is no doubt that he is one of, if not the most, important men in the history of boxing.
When Sullivan started his career prizefighting was illegal and within a decade arenas were being sold out to watch him fight.
Before Sullivan, fighters like Jem Mace, John Heenan, Joe Coburn, Joe Goss, John Dwyer and Tom Allen were the model of a fighter. Sullivan virtually transformed the sport as it was in the 1880s. He would have absolutely dominated any of the champions of previous generations, and did dominate every fighter until he was well past his prime.
For those who say that Sullivan simply did not have the ability to defeat Corbett, I suggest you read up on John L.
By the time he fought Corbett, Sullivan had been an alcoholic for close to a decade, was out of shape, and his life was basically in personal shambles. Corbett wasn't the only fighter who could have beat Sullivan that night...any of the top fighters of the era could have easily taken him out.
To say that Sullivan couldn't handle fast men who moved around and base it on the fact that Corbett beat him is equivalent to saying Joe Louis couldn't handle fighters with big time KO power and base it on the fact that Rocky Marciano KO'd him.
Like Louis, Sullivan was so far past his prime when he fought Corbett that he was, as I like to say, "a shell of a shell of his former self."
I'm not taking anything away from Corbett, who was clearly the champion of the next era, but there is no way that Corbett beats Sullivan in 1885.
As for Sullivan's chances nowadays, I'd say that with the techniques used in the late 19th century, he would not have a chance in the 21st century.
Sullivan was a great fighter, but it's just silly to think that any fighter with the primitive techniques of the time period could defeat a modern fighter.
Walter Hagen and Bobby Jones were 2 of the greatest golfers of all time, but would either of them have a chance against Tiger Woods or Phil Mickelson using the equipment of the 1920s? I doubt it.
Cap Anson, a 19th century ballplayer, was the first superstar of baseball and was the first player to record 3000 career hits. But after you read up on the history of the game and how it was played at that time, you will be hard pressed to believe that he would even approach his career statistics in the modern game.
Athletes of the 1920s and earlier were great in their own right and it is unfair to compare them with more modern athletes. Many factors, including upgrades in equipment, techniques, and the very real fact that humans are becoming bigger, stronger, and faster (And yes I happen to think that Col. Steve Austin is the most kickass motherfucker ever), make it extremely hard to compare completely different eras.
To sum up:
John L. Sullivan is one of the most important men in the history of boxing
If you think that Corbett would have beaten a prime Sullivan, you either don't know much about Corbett and Sullivan, or else you are insane
Neither Sullivan, nor any fighter of the 1800s, could contend with fighters of the 21st century without first teaching them the techniques and giving them the equipment that are available today.
It is unfair to compare different eras in sports for the reason mentioned above.
Col. Steve Austin is the most kickass motherfucker ever! He would kick Bruce Lee's ass any day of the week
And I'm spent.
When Sullivan started his career prizefighting was illegal and within a decade arenas were being sold out to watch him fight.
Before Sullivan, fighters like Jem Mace, John Heenan, Joe Coburn, Joe Goss, John Dwyer and Tom Allen were the model of a fighter. Sullivan virtually transformed the sport as it was in the 1880s. He would have absolutely dominated any of the champions of previous generations, and did dominate every fighter until he was well past his prime.
For those who say that Sullivan simply did not have the ability to defeat Corbett, I suggest you read up on John L.
By the time he fought Corbett, Sullivan had been an alcoholic for close to a decade, was out of shape, and his life was basically in personal shambles. Corbett wasn't the only fighter who could have beat Sullivan that night...any of the top fighters of the era could have easily taken him out.
To say that Sullivan couldn't handle fast men who moved around and base it on the fact that Corbett beat him is equivalent to saying Joe Louis couldn't handle fighters with big time KO power and base it on the fact that Rocky Marciano KO'd him.
Like Louis, Sullivan was so far past his prime when he fought Corbett that he was, as I like to say, "a shell of a shell of his former self."
I'm not taking anything away from Corbett, who was clearly the champion of the next era, but there is no way that Corbett beats Sullivan in 1885.
As for Sullivan's chances nowadays, I'd say that with the techniques used in the late 19th century, he would not have a chance in the 21st century.
Sullivan was a great fighter, but it's just silly to think that any fighter with the primitive techniques of the time period could defeat a modern fighter.
Walter Hagen and Bobby Jones were 2 of the greatest golfers of all time, but would either of them have a chance against Tiger Woods or Phil Mickelson using the equipment of the 1920s? I doubt it.
Cap Anson, a 19th century ballplayer, was the first superstar of baseball and was the first player to record 3000 career hits. But after you read up on the history of the game and how it was played at that time, you will be hard pressed to believe that he would even approach his career statistics in the modern game.
Athletes of the 1920s and earlier were great in their own right and it is unfair to compare them with more modern athletes. Many factors, including upgrades in equipment, techniques, and the very real fact that humans are becoming bigger, stronger, and faster (And yes I happen to think that Col. Steve Austin is the most kickass motherfucker ever), make it extremely hard to compare completely different eras.
To sum up:
John L. Sullivan is one of the most important men in the history of boxing
If you think that Corbett would have beaten a prime Sullivan, you either don't know much about Corbett and Sullivan, or else you are insane
Neither Sullivan, nor any fighter of the 1800s, could contend with fighters of the 21st century without first teaching them the techniques and giving them the equipment that are available today.
It is unfair to compare different eras in sports for the reason mentioned above.
Col. Steve Austin is the most kickass motherfucker ever! He would kick Bruce Lee's ass any day of the week
And I'm spent.
I have seen footage of gentle Jim Corbett fighting and this guy was like watching a "dandy" running around the ring, I don't care if you put him in todays arena and gave him the best training and nutrition he was usless, to say that Sullivan was way past it when they fought has to be true cause Corbett was pathetic in my view. Besides he fought a blown up middleweight and got knocked out with a body shot, the famous "solar plexis" punch that was apparently invented at the time by Fitzimmons. 
cheers M.O.
cheers M.O.
John L. Sullivan is one of the most important men in the history of boxing
Totally agree. Ive made this point myself.
If you think that Corbett would have beaten a prime Sullivan, you either don't know much about Corbett and Sullivan, or else you are insane
Corbett's styles of fighting was much bette than Sullivan's. It is very concievable that Corbett would have beat a prime Sullivan.
Neither Sullivan, nor any fighter of the 1800s, could contend with fighters of the 21st century without first teaching them the techniques and giving them the equipment that are available today.
Exactly my point.
It is unfair to compare different eras in sports for the reason mentioned above.
Fair or not it was the topic brought foward and I think a good one. Well, entertaining at least.
Totally agree. Ive made this point myself.
If you think that Corbett would have beaten a prime Sullivan, you either don't know much about Corbett and Sullivan, or else you are insane
Corbett's styles of fighting was much bette than Sullivan's. It is very concievable that Corbett would have beat a prime Sullivan.
Neither Sullivan, nor any fighter of the 1800s, could contend with fighters of the 21st century without first teaching them the techniques and giving them the equipment that are available today.
Exactly my point.
It is unfair to compare different eras in sports for the reason mentioned above.
Fair or not it was the topic brought foward and I think a good one. Well, entertaining at least.