Did Barry McGuigan retire too early?

[Controversial]

Where I live, it's in the thirties OUTSIDE.
I can assure you that it is not in the thirties INSIDE my home.

Er yes exactly, thats the point. A simple way to look at it is has anyone ever needed to acclimatised to the heat in Belfast or London, no. Do fighters need to acclimatise to fight in the Vegas heat, yes. The two heats are not comparable and the sunlight played a big part. If I turned my central heating up to maximum and sat sweating indoors that doesn't mean I could cope in desert sun.

[Rover]

Where I live, it's in the thirties OUTSIDE.
I can assure you that it is not in the thirties INSIDE my home.

Er yes exactly, thats the point. A simple way to look at it is has anyone ever needed to acclimatised to the heat in Belfast or London, no. Do fighters need to acclimatise to fight in the Vegas heat, yes. The two heats are not comparable and the sunlight played a big part. If I turned my central heating up to maximum and sat sweating indoors that doesn't mean I could cope in desert sun.

And neither of them had fought in anything close to 125 degrees from what we know.
We're going in circles again.
Thought you were done with this thread.
I'll keep going as long as you want.

[Counter-puncher]

jesus, kids.

[Rover]

jesus, kids.

Well, when people keep saying they're done...and they keep coming back...
I'll go away when they do.:)

[Controversial]

And neither of them had fought in anything close to 125 degrees from what we know.
We're going in circles again.
Thought you were done with this thread.
I'll keep going as long as you want.

Yes thats why Bernard Taylor lost, he had never fought in Belfast before, lol.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Where I live, it's in the thirties OUTSIDE.
I can assure you that it is not in the thirties INSIDE my home.

Er yes exactly, thats the point. A simple way to look at it is has anyone ever needed to acclimatised to the heat in Belfast or London, no. Do fighters need to acclimatise to fight in the Vegas heat, yes. The two heats are not comparable and the sunlight played a big part. If I turned my central heating up to maximum and sat sweating indoors that doesn't mean I could cope in desert sun.

Astounding this has been going on for so long. I like Rover, but damn is he stubborn.

[Rover]

I like you too, Saad, though we sometimes disagree.

[misterpunch]

you said "i'll go away when they do" a few minutes back. this means you are determined to have the last word. will you please grow up!!! if this is what your personal relationships are like i pity your partners (if you have had any)

[Rover]

you said "i'll go away when they do" a few minutes back. this means you are determined to have the last word. will you please grow up!!! if this is what your personal relationships are like i pity your partners (if you have had any)

I'll rephrase:
More than one person has said he's done with this thread but keeps returning.
It's not about the "last word." If someone just wants to fire cheap shots, I have no problem ignoring that, which I'd have done for yours, except to correct the apparent misconception on your part that it's about the "last word" for me.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

You have last word syndrome, Rover, no need to deny it. It's painfully obvious in every thread. I also suffer from that affliction.

[Rover]

You have last word syndrome, Rover, no need to deny it. It's painfully obvious in every thread. I also suffer from that affliction.

For substantive points, true, but if someone's just going to fire cheap shots (which has happened several times to me), I say screw it and leave.

[Rover]

I'm inflicted too, although I do bow down to Rover's powers, far superior than my own.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

You have last word syndrome, Rover, no need to deny it. It's painfully obvious in every thread. I also suffer from that affliction.

For substantive points, true, but if someone's just going to fire cheap shots (which has happened several times to me), I say screw it and leave.

Nah, it's any thread.You're a machine.

[Rover]

You have last word syndrome, Rover, no need to deny it. It's painfully obvious in every thread. I also suffer from that affliction.

For substantive points, true, but if someone's just going to fire cheap shots (which has happened several times to me), I say screw it and leave.

Nah, it's any thread.You're a machine.

My best friend calls me that, though in a different context.
For some reason, I have the ability to stay up all night and then take exams without any problem.
Just happened with the bar; stayed up all night watching Cheaters, went in the next day and took it for 6 hours, no problem.

[misterpunch]

big round of applause for rover

[Rover]

big round of applause for rover

Gracias!

[misterpunch]

an ironic one - (why is it i have to point out when i'm using irony and humour?)

[elmersalsa]

It is ironic how Barry McGuigan is in the hall of fame and deserving fighters like Esteban De Jesus, Rodolfo "Gato" Gonzalez, Hilario Zapata, Alfonso Zamora and Ernesto Marcel are not even mention for consideration.

[Rover]

It is ironic how Barry McGuigan is in the hall of fame and deserving fighters like Esteban De Jesus, Rodolfo "Gato" Gonzalez, Hilario Zapata, Alfonso Zamora and Ernesto Marcel are not even mention for consideration.

McGuigan shouldn't be in the HOF.

[misterpunch]

certainly not ahead of guys like that

[spudder56]

certainly not ahead of guys like that

100% Correct mate

[sucracristo]

1. McGuigan acknowledged the scorching heat in the Taylor fight, so there was no dispute about how hot it was, and Shenkel talked about it BEFORE the fight had even begun. Taylor was from Charlotte, a warmer location, and he had darker skin, so Shenkel's comments I cited weren't made as an excuse for Taylor post-fight, though he did repeat them post-fight.

with all the embedded quotes, i hope i got the brackets right

mcguigan fought taylor september 29, 1985
weatherunderground.com says the daytime high was 55 that day and the all-time high on that date
for belfast was 68 degrees, lol. that is the record. it has never gotten higher than 68 on that date
and the fight was in the evening.
i thought that fight was indoors, but it still wouldn't be as hot as you're saying. irish people complain
like you wouldn't believe when it even gets over 70 in july, so i wouldn't be surprised if someone over
there said, "it moosht be 100 in 'ere"

http://www.wunderground.com/history/air ... d+Kingdom

taylor lost all 8 rounds on 1 card and 7 of the 8 on another before quitting, so it wasn't the heat that got to him

in contrast, you can literally see the ringside thermometer before the cruz fight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP8tAdUpdDw it was 125

the average daytime high in fort worth where cruz is from in july is 96 in the shade
the average daytime high in belfast in july is 59

how can a conversation go on this long claiming mcguigan wasn't effected by the heat more
than cruz? this is so crazy. i've lived a lot of places, going from cold to hot to cold climates
and if somebody has spent his whole life in uk/ireland, just stepping outside in temps like that
your average irishman would pass out.

i have to think mcguigan would have won that fight if it were anywhere else.

someone here said he had cruz ahead. i watched it live at the orpheum closed circuit in boston as a kid
and several times since and i don't understand where all these rounds for cruz are coming from. i didn't
think he deserved all the points he got. there were only a few rounds where you could say cruz landed
the best shots, and it is debatable whether a judge should give him those because he mcguigan was coming
forward, pushing the action, throwing more, and landing more, but i will concede those. the rest of the rounds
mcguigan landed the best shots of the rounds, came forward, pushed the action and initiated the exchanges,
and landed more and got the better of most of the exchanges. i don't understand where all the rounds for
cruz came from.

the one thing i would say, though, is i saw several of cruz's fights and the guy could swat, especially
with the left hook. he was a solid world class fighter. i don't remember what he caught paez with but
dropped el maromero in his challenge for the lightweight title and dropped patterson in the fight before
that, and he dropped lots of fighters beside mcguigan, and ko'd 19.
mcguigan brought his left back low a lot and when he leaned to his left he would pull his right all the
way down to his waist. it was some kind of weird tick or a bad habit, but the right side of his face was
wide open half the time on the inside. the reason why he got cranked by cruz's left is because cruz could
swat with it and mcguigan was wide open for it. the reason why mcguigan's right eye tore open in his last
fight (i don't agree that he was not fighting well) was because he got nailed with a left hook on the inside.
i think in his 2nd to last fight mcguigan got cut in the same place by a left hook.
if the fight was in ireland or uk, mcguigan would have probably won, but he still would have probably
gotten dropped by cruz's left hook or overhand right during the fights, because he was wide open for them.
azuma nelson would have hammered him. the sad thing is that the wba broke up into 3 pieces in the mid-late
80's so there is no question mcguigan could have won one of the 4 titles at 130 or even 135. i believe
not only did his father die and then manager battle, but his brother used to break down tapes of his opponents
with him and help him train i think his brother shot himself, and his daughter got cancer, and the house he
grew up in that his mother lived in burned down, and lots of other things in a row. he had killed a guy
in the ring before winning the wba title, too. i remember belfast was pretty violent back then (gas station
blew up when i was there and riots) and barry's fights would temporarily get people to stop fighting each
other for a few hours. they had billboards "leave the fighting to barry" so he transcended boxing.
he didn't think he could be the best in the world and his heart wasn't able to carry the weight, so he retired.

he as more than just a boxer to many and if he stuck around it's not certain how much he would have added to
his story.

[sucracristo]

dammit! sorry. old thread. someone should have closed it. not entirely my fault (yes it is)

[Rover]

1. McGuigan acknowledged the scorching heat in the Taylor fight, so there was no dispute about how hot it was, and Shenkel talked about it BEFORE the fight had even begun. Taylor was from Charlotte, a warmer location, and he had darker skin, so Shenkel's comments I cited weren't made as an excuse for Taylor post-fight, though he did repeat them post-fight.

with all the embedded quotes, i hope i got the brackets right

mcguigan fought taylor september 29, 1985
weatherunderground.com says the daytime high was 55 that day and the all-time high on that date
for belfast was 68 degrees, lol. that is the record. it has never gotten higher than 68 on that date
and the fight was in the evening.
i thought that fight was indoors, but it still wouldn't be as hot as you're saying. irish people complain
like you wouldn't believe when it even gets over 70 in july, so i wouldn't be surprised if someone over
there said, "it moosht be 100 in 'ere"

http://www.wunderground.com/history/air ... d+Kingdom

taylor lost all 8 rounds on 1 card and 7 of the 8 on another before quitting, so it wasn't the heat that got to him

in contrast, you can literally see the ringside thermometer before the cruz fight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EP8tAdUpdDw it was 125

the average daytime high in fort worth where cruz is from in july is 96 in the shade
the average daytime high in belfast in july is 59

how can a conversation go on this long claiming mcguigan wasn't effected by the heat more
than cruz? this is so crazy. i've lived a lot of places, going from cold to hot to cold climates
and if somebody has spent his whole life in uk/ireland, just stepping outside in temps like that
your average irishman would pass out.

i have to think mcguigan would have won that fight if it were anywhere else.

someone here said he had cruz ahead. i watched it live at the orpheum closed circuit in boston as a kid
and several times since and i don't understand where all these rounds for cruz are coming from. i didn't
think he deserved all the points he got. there were only a few rounds where you could say cruz landed
the best shots, and it is debatable whether a judge should give him those because he mcguigan was coming
forward, pushing the action, throwing more, and landing more, but i will concede those. the rest of the rounds
mcguigan landed the best shots of the rounds, came forward, pushed the action and initiated the exchanges,
and landed more and got the better of most of the exchanges. i don't understand where all the rounds for
cruz came from.

the one thing i would say, though, is i saw several of cruz's fights and the guy could swat, especially
with the left hook. he was a solid world class fighter. i don't remember what he caught paez with but
dropped el maromero in his challenge for the lightweight title and dropped patterson in the fight before
that, and he dropped lots of fighters beside mcguigan, and ko'd 19.
mcguigan brought his left back low a lot and when he leaned to his left he would pull his right all the
way down to his waist. it was some kind of weird tick or a bad habit, but the right side of his face was
wide open half the time on the inside. the reason why he got cranked by cruz's left is because cruz could
swat with it and mcguigan was wide open for it. the reason why mcguigan's right eye tore open in his last
fight (i don't agree that he was not fighting well) was because he got nailed with a left hook on the inside.
i think in his 2nd to last fight mcguigan got cut in the same place by a left hook.
if the fight was in ireland or uk, mcguigan would have probably won, but he still would have probably
gotten dropped by cruz's left hook or overhand right during the fights, because he was wide open for them.
azuma nelson would have hammered him. the sad thing is that the wba broke up into 3 pieces in the mid-late
80's so there is no question mcguigan could have won one of the 4 titles at 130 or even 135. i believe
not only did his father die and then manager battle, but his brother used to break down tapes of his opponents
with him and help him train i think his brother shot himself, and his daughter got cancer, and the house he
grew up in that his mother lived in burned down, and lots of other things in a row. he had killed a guy
in the ring before winning the wba title, too. i remember belfast was pretty violent back then (gas station
blew up when i was there and riots) and barry's fights would temporarily get people to stop fighting each
other for a few hours. they had billboards "leave the fighting to barry" so he transcended boxing.
he didn't think he could be the best in the world and his heart wasn't able to carry the weight, so he retired.

he as more than just a boxer to many and if he stuck around it's not certain how much he would have added to
his story.

The statement was definitive about the temperature in the Taylor fight. It wasn't some Irishman saying it; it was Schenkel. It doesn't matter what the temperature was outside. The temperature can be 30 outside and 90+ inside. Likewise, the temperature can be 120 outside and a pleasant 70 inside a building.

Living in weather and fighting in it are two different things.
96 and 125 are also vastly different.
And you're flat-out wrong when you say Taylor lost all 8 rounds on one card and 7 of 8 on another.
Scores:
80-77
77-76
79-76
They're called *even* rounds, and there were many scored in that fight.

[misterpunch]

here we go round and round