Another Ali what if...

[Ezzard]

It always being said that boxing is dying. The biggest living sportsman is Muhammad Ali. But due to his Parkinson’s he is not a high profile figure anymore. But he’s still hugely popular.

What if Ali didn’t have Parkinsons. And had spent the last 30 years in the public eye, commentating, appearing on chat shows…being himself.

Surely more young Americans would want to grow up and be Ali. The terrible disease means people look at Ali and think I don’t want to end up like that…

Would boxing be different today if Ali had been in the same sort of health as Foreman for the last 3 decades?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I don't think it would make a difference. There would still be HBO & Showtime offering up the kind of money that put the networks out of the sport and pushed it into niche status. There would still have been the Casinos that paid to entice gamblers and gave the promoters cash without having to work and build up regional fan bases.

[JLP]

I don't think it would've made much difference either. People would've tired of Ali, it's likely that his Parkinson's has actually kept him more in the public eye. For instance, would he have been at the opening ceremony of the London olympics if he was fit and well? I don't think so. He may not even have lit the flame in Atlanta. The Parkinson's made the moments iconic.

There are many reasons for boxing's wane. Seeing Ali in the state he's in is way down the list, in my view.

[Ezzard]

I work with a lot of Americans who are from the generation who grew up watching him. They cite his current state as the major reason why they no longer follow the sport.

That's why I asked.

Saad's point makes sense. And there's something in what JLP says...

[Counter-puncher]

I wonder if the career of (say) a Sugar Ray Leonard factors in, here, maybe along similar lines to Saad's points. once they discovered from the Leonard blueprint that they could have a fighter totally made for/by TV, some of the rules of the game seemed to change, with regard to matchmaking as well as the downgrading of regional shows/fanbases.

Leonard's matchmaking was actually pretty darn tough compared to the more modern blueprint, but the idea of TV investing in a fighter's career, pretty much from the start, and therefore having a lot riding on his success (and outright terror of the 'failure' of a single loss), seems to have changed the landscape, too.

anyways that doesn't tie in to any reading of Ali's absence having an impact, quite the opposite, but I do think the Leonard formula was very influential in terms of the promoters/TV guys and the horizons of ambition they were working within. probably De La Hoya would be the example I would point to as exemplifying the approach.

[BoxBuzz]

It's more than that.....it's the feminization of society for good or bad.

Chefs are a bigger deal than warriors.

Look at our CIA chief former general, he scores a good looking woman on the side, (been going on since Genghis Khan) and suddenly he's a shameful character. And yes that is an issue that probably has weight.....but much more now than historically. You can all decide if it's for "the better". But male character traits have taken quite the fall since the days of the Spanish Conquistodors. The once "loveable pirate", is now beneath contempt.

However gossip, and fashion, and few other benign at best feminine traits are moving up the charts fast.

I'm not putting down love, and compassion, they are the good traits, that I have no quarrel with that are often considered more fem than masc. Society could use more of that. But perhaps forgiveness could get a seat at the table as well. And quieter toungues.

[Ezzard]

I wonder if the career of (say) a Sugar Ray Leonard factors in, here, maybe along similar lines to Saad's points. once they discovered from the Leonard blueprint that they could have a fighter totally made for/by TV, some of the rules of the game seemed to change, with regard to matchmaking as well as the downgrading of regional shows/fanbases.

Leonard's matchmaking was actually pretty darn tough compared to the more modern blueprint, but the idea of TV investing in a fighter's career, pretty much from the start, and therefore having a lot riding on his success (and outright terror of the 'failure' of a single loss), seems to have changed the landscape, too.

anyways that doesn't tie in to any reading of Ali's absence having an impact, quite the opposite, but I do think the Leonard formula was very influential in terms of the promoters/TV guys and the horizons of ambition they were working within. probably De La Hoya would be the example I would point to as exemplifying the approach.

Leonard fought the best. But we still had a knowledgeable large fanbase back then. But by the time we got to Jones we had an event. He had a contract to fight nobodies. Eubank ended up with a similar deal over here.

But I think you’re right in that TV stopped wanting the sport and instead wanted the individuals. And the sport sort of got in the way.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I wonder if the career of (say) a Sugar Ray Leonard factors in, here, maybe along similar lines to Saad's points. once they discovered from the Leonard blueprint that they could have a fighter totally made for/by TV, some of the rules of the game seemed to change, with regard to matchmaking as well as the downgrading of regional shows/fanbases.

Leonard's matchmaking was actually pretty darn tough compared to the more modern blueprint, but the idea of TV investing in a fighter's career, pretty much from the start, and therefore having a lot riding on his success (and outright terror of the 'failure' of a single loss), seems to have changed the landscape, too.

anyways that doesn't tie in to any reading of Ali's absence having an impact, quite the opposite, but I do think the Leonard formula was very influential in terms of the promoters/TV guys and the horizons of ambition they were working within. probably De La Hoya would be the example I would point to as exemplifying the approach.

Leonard fought the best. But we still had a knowledgeable large fanbase back then. But by the time we got to Jones we had an event. He had a contract to fight nobodies. Eubank ended up with a similar deal over here.

But I think you’re right in that TV stopped wanting the sport and instead wanted the individuals. And the sport sort of got in the way.

TV couldn't afford the sport in the states. There are other facets that were just time changing. When I was a kid and Boxing was plastered all over the networks there was no cable, 3 channels were on and Boxing was way more popular than College Football as there was 1 game on a week, 2 for a huge week. Nobody watched Golf. More choices and the cost of televising Boxing is what essentially got it off the networks and out of the mainstream.

[BoxBuzz]

People hitting each other.......many people frown upon this activity.

[Ezzard]

I wonder if the career of (say) a Sugar Ray Leonard factors in, here, maybe along similar lines to Saad's points. once they discovered from the Leonard blueprint that they could have a fighter totally made for/by TV, some of the rules of the game seemed to change, with regard to matchmaking as well as the downgrading of regional shows/fanbases.

Leonard's matchmaking was actually pretty darn tough compared to the more modern blueprint, but the idea of TV investing in a fighter's career, pretty much from the start, and therefore having a lot riding on his success (and outright terror of the 'failure' of a single loss), seems to have changed the landscape, too.

anyways that doesn't tie in to any reading of Ali's absence having an impact, quite the opposite, but I do think the Leonard formula was very influential in terms of the promoters/TV guys and the horizons of ambition they were working within. probably De La Hoya would be the example I would point to as exemplifying the approach.

Leonard fought the best. But we still had a knowledgeable large fanbase back then. But by the time we got to Jones we had an event. He had a contract to fight nobodies. Eubank ended up with a similar deal over here.

But I think you’re right in that TV stopped wanting the sport and instead wanted the individuals. And the sport sort of got in the way.

TV couldn't afford the sport in the states. There are other facets that were just time changing. When I was a kid and Boxing was plastered all over the networks there was no cable, 3 channels were on and Boxing was way more popular than College Football as there was 1 game on a week, 2 for a huge week. Nobody watched Golf. More choices and the cost of televising Boxing is what essentially got it off the networks and out of the mainstream.

Golf? I'll never understand why anyone watches it.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Leonard fought the best. But we still had a knowledgeable large fanbase back then. But by the time we got to Jones we had an event. He had a contract to fight nobodies. Eubank ended up with a similar deal over here.

But I think you’re right in that TV stopped wanting the sport and instead wanted the individuals. And the sport sort of got in the way.

TV couldn't afford the sport in the states. There are other facets that were just time changing. When I was a kid and Boxing was plastered all over the networks there was no cable, 3 channels were on and Boxing was way more popular than College Football as there was 1 game on a week, 2 for a huge week. Nobody watched Golf. More choices and the cost of televising Boxing is what essentially got it off the networks and out of the mainstream.

Golf? I'll never understand why anyone watches it.

The Major Tournaments are as awesome as sports gets.

[Ezzard]

Golf? I'll never understand why anyone watches it.

The Major Tournaments are as awesome as sports gets.

If I'm going to watch some, more often than not, privileged moron play sport then at least in motor racing I might be lucky enough to watch him burn to death...

I know, it's an old joke....

[Counter-puncher]

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Golf? I'll never understand why anyone watches it.

The Major Tournaments are as awesome as sports gets.

If I'm going to watch some, more often than not, privileged moron play sport then at least in motor racing I might be lucky enough to watch him burn to death...

I know, it's an old joke....

I can't sit through 10 minutes of a car race, I'll watch about 30 hours of the majors in the 4 days. That being said, it's infinitely more popular than Boxing and that wasn't near the case 30 years ago. The Masters had poor final round ratings in the US last year because Tiger and Phil weren't involved. It still drew about 4 times more viewers than Pac/May would. Obviously that's free TV as opposed to PPV, but it's still telling. Donaire/Mares on Free TV wouldn't draw 1/20th of a Golf Tournament.

[Ezzard]

I only watch boxing, football and Wimbledon. That's it.

Popularity doesn't bother me. The average Joe will buy pig sh1t if you put it in a nice enough wrapper.

My son is 11 and will watch literally any sport. And has almost no other topic of conversation.

[Roars Like Me]

It must have a little to do with it, I mean someone as gifted as that, the greatest if you like and he ends up as he has due to the sport of boxing. It must make the average Joe think, mmm tennis looks like a good game.

[elmersalsa]

I guess like Bob Dylan's song says: The Times are A Changing...I love the song but I don't like what is happening. I guess everything, almost everything is not good of a quality like before. MMA is taking over. I guess we are the last of this generation to watch boxing as a major sport.

And it is not only boxing that is going down...Music is not as good as before...Entertainment in general, like movies for example, is not the same. I guess we got our own ways to entertain ourself like going to the web. I don't even listen to the radio at all! What do we got now? One Direction? The Klitschkos? Usher to play Sugar Ray Leonard in Roberto Duran's upcoming movie? Lil Wayne? I don't know what this guy sings...Something ain't right right now....Not just boxing...

[Ambling Alp II]

It always being said that boxing is dying. The biggest living sportsman is Muhammad Ali. But due to his Parkinson’s he is not a high profile figure anymore. But he’s still hugely popular.

What if Ali didn’t have Parkinsons. And had spent the last 30 years in the public eye, commentating, appearing on chat shows…being himself.

Surely more young Americans would want to grow up and be Ali. The terrible disease means people look at Ali and think I don’t want to end up like that…

Would boxing be different today if Ali had been in the same sort of health as Foreman for the last 3 decades?

I think it would haleped a little if Ali had better health. He would be more visible and people would think about boxing a little more. Right now it simply isn't on many people's radar.
As others have mentioned on this thread and others threads, there are too many problems with boxing that has hurt it's popularity.

However, the problems are too big. His last fight was in 1981, and his last fight on live TV was in 1978. Boxing was behind only football, basketball, and baseball in popularity in the United States. Only the NFL was far more popular at that time. The NFL had two doubleheaders every Sunday afternoon, and amonday night game when Monday Night Football was a much big deal than it is now.
College football was shown nationally on ABC which usually showed two doubleheaders a week on Saturday afternoons; though there were a lot of bowl games covered. Almost never in primetime in the regular season. Now it is on 4 networks and cable covers several games.
College and pro basketball were not broadcast nearly as much as they are now. That changed greatly with cable in the 1980s.

However, cable TV has not been the boon to boxing that it has been to other sports. ESPN shows terrible fights that are usually mismatches. (The USA network used to cover boxing but it wasn't much better than ESPN.)It's really the equivalent of AA baseball; actually worse. At least AA baseball can be competitive with roughly evenly matched teams.. All boxing has is HBO and Showtime and most people don't subscribe to either.

Now of course other sports (Golf,tennis NASCAR etc.) are more popular than boxing.
Would be interesting to hear from someone outside the United States how much more (or less) other sports are on TV than in the late 1970s? Is soccer, tennis etc on a lot more now in Europe?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Boxing was way bigger than College Football or Basketball. I remember watching NBA finals games after the local news on tape delay because they weren't big enough to interrupt regular programming.

[elmersalsa]

How do I miss the good old days of saturdays and sunday afternoon of network tvs showing boxing. The best boxing for free. Also, I miss the Tuesday Night Fights in USA Network on cable

[man]

Look at our CIA chief former general, he scores a good looking woman on the side, (been going on since Genghis Khan) and suddenly he's a shameful character.

i have a similar feeling. here is a commander who
ordered soldiers into battle and death and is actually
one of the very few current "typical males", but my
goodness how could he have an affair with a hot fan.

i think thirty years ago, journalists wouldn't have seen
that even news worthy, not to speak of being "a story".

there are pros and cons to this development. but it is
IMO the result of public hypocrisy rather than maturity.
"TV pundits" are a real drag ... i think this 24/7 news
cycle is a disaster in blowing things out of any proportion ...

[wvboxer]

I think Ali's condition has definitely discouraged some good athletes from becoming boxers. I can be champ, make loads of money, & end up in such bad health? That has to scare some guys off.

[Bricks]

A lot of things since Alis retirement in 78 and than 80 have changed the landscapes.

Other sports offer far more money than they did before and in some case no longer as exclusive as before (tennis & boxing)

The rise of rap music and drug dealing

the rise of mma to some extent.

But this is a american thing we are talking about. Amateur boxing is booming in the UK. the sport is alive and kicking in eastern europe and germany. there has been a decline in the level and quality of fighters out of africa but Mexico is the no 1 nation in the world today and they will continue to deliver high quality future hall of famers. The phillipines and indonesia are huge lands where the sport is growing....and countries like japan and italy and france will continue to serve up good fighters now and than. I think India will be a player in pro boxing in another 15 years.

[man]

several things.

howard cosell if i am not mistaken turned away from boxing
directly due to what he saw happening to his friend muhammad.
the real case with ali is IMO that he got licensed for way too long.
years before it turned really ugly you could hear the decline in
speech. ... on a sidenote: james toney should not have been allowed
for quite a while to fight IMHO.

the amount of damage which muhammad received was reckless
conduct by authorities. having said that i can imagine the pressure
from all sides to give him a license ... no, actually i can't.

today boxing is not the only official, televised combat sport anymore.
boxing could handle WWW well, because it is a joke, it cannot handle
mixed martial arts, because it is no joke. in europe MMA is non-existent
at this point, so the rise of boxing in recent years, especially in germany
has been happening without competition. needless to say that the
opening of the huge resources behind the iron curtain just came in
full effect in very recent years too, and since germany quickly jumped
on the eastern talent, we have germany at prominent stage now and
not, say, russia.

but who cares? boxing is here to stay, little bigger or a little smaller.
and with the next american heavy weight star the whining will be over.

[wvboxer]

I agree his condition discourages guys from boxing but can networks pay to have a big fight today given what they make?

I don't think people "get" boxing today. I watched a fight recently & one boxer really outboxed his opponent. The crowd though was booing. It wasn't wall to wall excitement but it was a good "boxing" match. Fans don't appreciate the subtleties anymore.