silkov wrote:
Hamed was greatly overrated imo... he was really in a different league to the likes of Gomez, Nelson, Lopez and ofcourse Sanchez.
I love the Sanchez vs Gomez fight as its a sensational performance by Salvadore and Gomez gives an equally brilliant performance of courage and never gives up. Had Sanchez not been such a great fighter Gomez could have turned that fight around.
Gomez never seemed the same fighter once he moved up and often seemed disinterested. I seem to remember there was talk of Mcguigan moving up to figth Gomez at some point but he took the Cruz figth instead. I'm sure Silkov will correct me on this if I'm wrong.
I don't think Gomez is a certain to beat Naz. BUT I would back Gomez out of the 2 but it's not cut and dry like the first list of fighters I made. What really bothers me about Naz was how easily he accepted MAB mastering him. I really thought he'd go for broke in the final rounds but he just continued doing very little. I don't think he could have turned the fight around because I don't think he was good enough.
I really like Lopez but I don't think he sits next to Sanchez, Nelson, Pedroza etc either. Again, I think a fight with Naz would be quite close.
After his loss to Sanchez Wilfredo went back down to 122 and had a real thriller with Lupe Pintor. He then after a few other fights moved back up to 126 and won the title from Laporte at which point he was really already past his best but still a formiddable fighter. Gomez at his best would have had far too much for Hamed. Same with Danny Lopez. One thing that really hampered Hamed when he stepped up in class was that he tended to rely on one punch to end things while the likes of Gomez, Lopez, Sanchez and Nelson were all great combination punchers.
Noone mentiones Azhuma Nelsons power much but he had very heavy hands who can forget the way he koed Cowdell and Jim Mcdonnell. After the way Hamed was dominated by Barrera and struggled against a faded Kevin Kelley I think Lopez, Sanchez, Gomez and Nelson would all have had pretty clear cut wins against him.
Sorry, yes, Gomez was a cut above but it never seemed to happen for him post-Sanchez. he still won fights but something was missing. It may have been decline. I always put it down to the extra few pounds in weight. Gomez was a greater fighter than naz but maybe he could have been taken at 126.
You're right to talk about Nelson's power but I'm never quite sure of the Cowdell fight. Pat seemed to take a round ro two to warm up. i think it was a real shame that Pat got caught like that because I think he'd have put up a good fight. Nelson would have won but Cowdell was a very clever boxer who was always competitive. Pat fought 2 of the feather weight greats in their prime. He was unlucky not to have met a softer title holder, in another era he could have won a belt. Pat's from my neck of the woods so I always talk him up, but he was a solid performer.
I'm still not totally convinced that Lopez would have won a clear cut fight with Naz. Lopez didn't have a great defence and was there to be hit. I lean to Lopez becasue he had fighting qualities that Naz lacked but I would not be surprised by a Hamed victory.
Ezzard wrote:
Gomez never seemed the same fighter once he moved up and often seemed disinterested. I seem to remember there was talk of Mcguigan moving up to figth Gomez at some point but he took the Cruz figth instead. I'm sure Silkov will correct me on this if I'm wrong.
I don't think Gomez is a certain to beat Naz. BUT I would back Gomez out of the 2 but it's not cut and dry like the first list of fighters I made. What really bothers me about Naz was how easily he accepted MAB mastering him. I really thought he'd go for broke in the final rounds but he just continued doing very little. I don't think he could have turned the fight around because I don't think he was good enough.
I really like Lopez but I don't think he sits next to Sanchez, Nelson, Pedroza etc either. Again, I think a fight with Naz would be quite close.
After his loss to Sanchez Wilfredo went back down to 122 and had a real thriller with Lupe Pintor. He then after a few other fights moved back up to 126 and won the title from Laporte at which point he was really already past his best but still a formiddable fighter. Gomez at his best would have had far too much for Hamed. Same with Danny Lopez. One thing that really hampered Hamed when he stepped up in class was that he tended to rely on one punch to end things while the likes of Gomez, Lopez, Sanchez and Nelson were all great combination punchers.
Noone mentiones Azhuma Nelsons power much but he had very heavy hands who can forget the way he koed Cowdell and Jim Mcdonnell. After the way Hamed was dominated by Barrera and struggled against a faded Kevin Kelley I think Lopez, Sanchez, Gomez and Nelson would all have had pretty clear cut wins against him.
Sorry, yes, Gomez was a cut above but it never seemed to happen for him post-Sanchez. he still won fights but something was missing. It may have been decline. I always put it down to the extra few pounds in weight. Gomez was a greater fighter than naz but maybe he could have been taken at 126.
You're right to talk about Nelson's power but I'm never quite sure of the Cowdell fight. Pat seemed to take a round ro two to warm up. i think it was a real shame that Pat got caught like that because I think he'd have put up a good fight. Nelson would have won but Cowdell was a very clever boxer who was always competitive. Pat fought 2 of the feather weight greats in their prime. He was unlucky not to have met a softer title holder, in another era he could have won a belt. Pat's from my neck of the woods so I always talk him up, but he was a solid performer.
I'm still not totally convinced that Lopez would have won a clear cut fight with Naz. Lopez didn't have a great defence and was there to be hit. I lean to Lopez becasue he had fighting qualities that Naz lacked but I would not be surprised by a Hamed victory.
I'd pick Gomez over Hamed at Feather becuase he still had the power and heart even when in decline. Gomez beat Laporte with a good display then lost the title to a peaking Nelson in a war. He then had another war with Lockeridge at 130 and picked up that title with a disputed decision. My point is that even past his best Gomez had the tools and heart to beat Hamed. After seeing Hamed almost koed by a very ringworn Kelley and then outboxed by Barrera I've little doubt Gomez would beat Hamed. He could even just outbox him which is how he beat Laporte (who was a very dangerous puncher himself!).
Lopez was a slow starter and could be floored but he actually had a very good chin and remarakble recovery powers. If you watch Lopezs fights he was always at his most dangerous when hurt and often got up off the floor to ko his opponent in that or the next round. Had he fought Hamed I can see Hamed flooring him but Lopez would get right back up and knock Hamed out later on. Lopez had a long run of come from behind wins and I think his fighting heart was that much bigger than Naz's plus he probably hit as hard or if not harder than Hamed from what I've seen of him.
i think hamed is getting a raw deal here.sure sanchez would have beat him but i'd fancy naz over lopez and gomez.wilfredo was fabulous at superbantam,but at feather was just a good champion.lopez i feel was a good but not exceptional fighter.i don't think he would ko naz it would be the other way round.
silkov wrote:
After his loss to Sanchez Wilfredo went back down to 122 and had a real thriller with Lupe Pintor. He then after a few other fights moved back up to 126 and won the title from Laporte at which point he was really already past his best but still a formiddable fighter. Gomez at his best would have had far too much for Hamed. Same with Danny Lopez. One thing that really hampered Hamed when he stepped up in class was that he tended to rely on one punch to end things while the likes of Gomez, Lopez, Sanchez and Nelson were all great combination punchers.
Noone mentiones Azhuma Nelsons power much but he had very heavy hands who can forget the way he koed Cowdell and Jim Mcdonnell. After the way Hamed was dominated by Barrera and struggled against a faded Kevin Kelley I think Lopez, Sanchez, Gomez and Nelson would all have had pretty clear cut wins against him.
Sorry, yes, Gomez was a cut above but it never seemed to happen for him post-Sanchez. he still won fights but something was missing. It may have been decline. I always put it down to the extra few pounds in weight. Gomez was a greater fighter than naz but maybe he could have been taken at 126.
You're right to talk about Nelson's power but I'm never quite sure of the Cowdell fight. Pat seemed to take a round ro two to warm up. i think it was a real shame that Pat got caught like that because I think he'd have put up a good fight. Nelson would have won but Cowdell was a very clever boxer who was always competitive. Pat fought 2 of the feather weight greats in their prime. He was unlucky not to have met a softer title holder, in another era he could have won a belt. Pat's from my neck of the woods so I always talk him up, but he was a solid performer.
I'm still not totally convinced that Lopez would have won a clear cut fight with Naz. Lopez didn't have a great defence and was there to be hit. I lean to Lopez becasue he had fighting qualities that Naz lacked but I would not be surprised by a Hamed victory.
I'd pick Gomez over Hamed at Feather becuase he still had the power and heart even when in decline. Gomez beat Laporte with a good display then lost the title to a peaking Nelson in a war. He then had another war with Lockeridge at 130 and picked up that title with a disputed decision. My point is that even past his best Gomez had the tools and heart to beat Hamed. After seeing Hamed almost koed by a very ringworn Kelley and then outboxed by Barrera I've little doubt Gomez would beat Hamed. He could even just outbox him which is how he beat Laporte (who was a very dangerous puncher himself!).
Lopez was a slow starter and could be floored but he actually had a very good chin and remarakble recovery powers. If you watch Lopezs fights he was always at his most dangerous when hurt and often got up off the floor to ko his opponent in that or the next round. Had he fought Hamed I can see Hamed flooring him but Lopez would get right back up and knock Hamed out later on. Lopez had a long run of come from behind wins and I think his fighting heart was that much bigger than Naz's plus he probably hit as hard or if not harder than Hamed from what I've seen of him.
Have never seen Nelson-Gomez. Sounds like it would be worth a look. I take your point about Lopez. Like I said I'd pick him to win but I think it's close, especially as Naz was never KO'd.
Bit disappointed that you've got nothign to say about Pat
Esparragoza ad Villasana would have been good match ups with hamed. How do you see those two faring against him?
this is getting silly.hamed is a cut above the likes of esparragoza and villasana.his record is slightly better than little reds as well imo.although danny would have had a chance.
dalek wrote:this is getting silly.hamed is a cut above the likes of esparragoza and villasana.his record is slightly better than little reds as well imo.although danny would have had a chance.
dalek do you think Hamed blows these guys out, or does he win competitive fights?
ah thats different m8.villasana could take a sledgehammer to the head and not go down.man he was a tough s.o.b.i think hamed would win handily on points.esparragoza never impressed me,i think the cruz win flattered to deceive.i would take hamed to work him over and stop him in eight.
Ezzard wrote:
Sorry, yes, Gomez was a cut above but it never seemed to happen for him post-Sanchez. he still won fights but something was missing. It may have been decline. I always put it down to the extra few pounds in weight. Gomez was a greater fighter than naz but maybe he could have been taken at 126.
You're right to talk about Nelson's power but I'm never quite sure of the Cowdell fight. Pat seemed to take a round ro two to warm up. i think it was a real shame that Pat got caught like that because I think he'd have put up a good fight. Nelson would have won but Cowdell was a very clever boxer who was always competitive. Pat fought 2 of the feather weight greats in their prime. He was unlucky not to have met a softer title holder, in another era he could have won a belt. Pat's from my neck of the woods so I always talk him up, but he was a solid performer.
I'm still not totally convinced that Lopez would have won a clear cut fight with Naz. Lopez didn't have a great defence and was there to be hit. I lean to Lopez becasue he had fighting qualities that Naz lacked but I would not be surprised by a Hamed victory.
I'd pick Gomez over Hamed at Feather becuase he still had the power and heart even when in decline. Gomez beat Laporte with a good display then lost the title to a peaking Nelson in a war. He then had another war with Lockeridge at 130 and picked up that title with a disputed decision. My point is that even past his best Gomez had the tools and heart to beat Hamed. After seeing Hamed almost koed by a very ringworn Kelley and then outboxed by Barrera I've little doubt Gomez would beat Hamed. He could even just outbox him which is how he beat Laporte (who was a very dangerous puncher himself!).
Lopez was a slow starter and could be floored but he actually had a very good chin and remarakble recovery powers. If you watch Lopezs fights he was always at his most dangerous when hurt and often got up off the floor to ko his opponent in that or the next round. Had he fought Hamed I can see Hamed flooring him but Lopez would get right back up and knock Hamed out later on. Lopez had a long run of come from behind wins and I think his fighting heart was that much bigger than Naz's plus he probably hit as hard or if not harder than Hamed from what I've seen of him.
Have never seen Nelson-Gomez. Sounds like it would be worth a look. I take your point about Lopez. Like I said I'd pick him to win but I think it's close, especially as Naz was never KO'd.
Bit disappointed that you've got nothign to say about Pat
Esparragoza ad Villasana would have been good match ups with hamed. How do you see those two faring against him?
Sorry I over looked Pat! actually I'm a big fan of Cowdell, I always enjoyed watching him fight... one of the fights I would have loved to see would have been Cowdell vs Mcguigan. Pat was very underrated generally... he gave Sanchez one of his most difficult defences he really gave a great performance that night.
Esparrgozza and Villasana would have been difficult fights for Hamed, though I'd pick him to win on points. People seem to forget that when ever Hamed stepped up against decent opposition he was given a hard time... Johnson, Medina, Kelley, Ingle, Mcculloch all gave Naz a lot of trouble... more trouble than he should have had were he as good as he claimed
Pat didn't have Barry's charisma or punch but he was an honest pro who was unlucky to meet top top champions in his challenges. Still, Pat can say that he got in there with the very best.
dalek wrote:ah thats different m8.villasana could take a sledgehammer to the head and not go down.man he was a tough s.o.b.i think hamed would win handily on points.esparragoza never impressed me,i think the cruz win flattered to deceive.i would take hamed to work him over and stop him in eight.
I think Hamed wins more times than he loses but I think these would be tough fights. Looking back to the 80s feathers there was anawful lot of talent around.
Ezzard wrote:Pat didn't have Barry's charisma or punch but he was an honest pro who was unlucky to meet top top champions in his challenges. Still, Pat can say that he got in there with the very best.
Cowdell was very quiet and shy I seem to remember. I recall him apologising to Harry Carpenter after he lost to Sanchez. The Punch Nelson koed him with would probably have koed 99% of featherweights... it was a monsterous punch in the class of Julian Jacksons one punch ko over Herol Graham.
Its a shame Cowdell never got a fight with Mcguigan as I've a feeling his shifty style and guile would have given Barry problems.
nazfan wrote:I reckon naz wins by KO if they both fight at the age of 23 (their primes). Sanchez use to get carried away and fight, and was made to pay before. I think this would have been an explosive fight. they both likes fats cars too. naz had the bigger punch but sanchez was better overall.
naseem is a fornicating loser. we have seen that now. it is good this is in boxers of the past as he ran away, quit and got fat after barrera beat his sorry ass.
Ezzard wrote:Pat didn't have Barry's charisma or punch but he was an honest pro who was unlucky to meet top top champions in his challenges. Still, Pat can say that he got in there with the very best.
Cowdell was very quiet and shy I seem to remember. I recall him apologising to Harry Carpenter after he lost to Sanchez. The Punch Nelson koed him with would probably have koed 99% of featherweights... it was a monsterous punch in the class of Julian Jacksons one punch ko over Herol Graham.
Its a shame Cowdell never got a fight with Mcguigan as I've a feeling his shifty style and guile would have given Barry problems.
Could Pat have won a decision against Naz? Pat would have had to have really tucked his chin in for the first 4-5 rounds. The thing was Pat wasn';t chinny but early on in a fight he did seem susceptible.
Ezzard wrote:Pat didn't have Barry's charisma or punch but he was an honest pro who was unlucky to meet top top champions in his challenges. Still, Pat can say that he got in there with the very best.
Cowdell was very quiet and shy I seem to remember. I recall him apologising to Harry Carpenter after he lost to Sanchez. The Punch Nelson koed him with would probably have koed 99% of featherweights... it was a monsterous punch in the class of Julian Jacksons one punch ko over Herol Graham.
Its a shame Cowdell never got a fight with Mcguigan as I've a feeling his shifty style and guile would have given Barry problems.
Could Pat have won a decision against Naz? Pat would have had to have really tucked his chin in for the first 4-5 rounds. The thing was Pat wasn';t chinny but early on in a fight he did seem susceptible.
I think Pat was only vulnerble early on after the Nelson fight I think... there was the Daho fight a little later when he was stopped early.
Its worth remembering that Cowdell retired I think for about 18 months or 2 years (I'll have to look it up!) a short while after the Sanchez bout and the Nelson fight came in his 'second' phase... when he was a tad slower and therefore more vulnerble. I could see him giving Naz a boxing lesson really... at his best Cowdell was very hard to catch cleanly... Cowdell did actually fight with his chin tucked into his shoulder...
silkov wrote:
Cowdell was very quiet and shy I seem to remember. I recall him apologising to Harry Carpenter after he lost to Sanchez. The Punch Nelson koed him with would probably have koed 99% of featherweights... it was a monsterous punch in the class of Julian Jacksons one punch ko over Herol Graham.
Its a shame Cowdell never got a fight with Mcguigan as I've a feeling his shifty style and guile would have given Barry problems.
Could Pat have won a decision against Naz? Pat would have had to have really tucked his chin in for the first 4-5 rounds. The thing was Pat wasn';t chinny but early on in a fight he did seem susceptible.
I think Pat was only vulnerble early on after the Nelson fight I think... there was the Daho fight a little later when he was stopped early.
Its worth remembering that Cowdell retired I think for about 18 months or 2 years (I'll have to look it up!) a short while after the Sanchez bout and the Nelson fight came in his 'second' phase... when he was a tad slower and therefore more vulnerble. I could see him giving Naz a boxing lesson really... at his best Cowdell was very hard to catch cleanly... Cowdell did actually fight with his chin tucked into his shoulder...
Yes, he was slightly hunched and kept his hands moving pretty much the whole time. the retirement was odd really after he did so well against Sanchez. I know Salvador often fought at the level of his opponents but Pat did awfully well that night. He's a bit of a forgotten man of British boxing.
pat was hurt in the daho rematch in the first as well.i think this would have been his undoing against a banger like naz.i remember watching the nelson fight and thinking he had a great chance and then bang it was all over.cowdell was a very good fighter who i think could have beaten the likes of villasana.he was unlucky to get who he did in 2 attempts,both top 10 feathers of all time.
dalek wrote:pat was hurt in the daho rematch in the first as well.i think this would have been his undoing against a banger like naz.i remember watching the nelson fight and thinking he had a great chance and then bang it was all over.cowdell was a very good fighter who i think could have beaten the likes of villasana.he was unlucky to get who he did in 2 attempts,both top 10 feathers of all time.
Dalek, what do you think of Silk's point that he only really became shaky early on after the lay off?
I'd certainly have both Sanchez and Nelson in my Feather top 10.
yeah he may have a point with that.cowdell however may have just never got over the devastating nelson ko.it could be he lost his punch resistance to a degree from this.
If you watch Cowdell round about the Sanchez fight and then watch him after his come back from his 'retirement' its visible that he's a tad slower on his feet and with his reflexes as well. I think the Cowdell who fought Sanchez would not have been caught so early by Nelson and I feel at his best Cowdell could have outboxed Naz for a points win.
Against Barrera Hamed seemed at a loss at what to do when he was being outboxed and Cowdell was a fair bit taller than Barrera (about 5 feet 7 I think) and had long arms. I think his style would have been a nightmare for Hamed.
Looking at Cowdells record he was 32 when he fought Nelson so while not wanting to take anything away for Nelson its fair to say COWDELL was slowing down and should really be judged more by his earlier performances and his form against Sanchez when he was in his prime at 28......
silkov wrote:Ezzard do you know if Cowdell is still training/managing fighters?...
I'll ask the old man. He lives not too far from Pat and will have probably heard on the rumour mill. He had a good boxing brain and would eb an excellent trainer.
Look if Barerra outpointed Naz (cleanly) without breaking a sweat, Sanchez would do it with one hand tied behind his back.....Sanchez was a true great, Naz was all hype...KOing bums and journeymen.....
silkov wrote:Ezzard do you know if Cowdell is still training/managing fighters?...
I'll ask the old man. He lives not too far from Pat and will have probably heard on the rumour mill. He had a good boxing brain and would eb an excellent trainer.
I was pleased to see him working corners a few years ago as he's the sprt of person who has a lot of knowledge and experience to give younger fighters....
nazfan wrote:I reckon naz wins by KO if they both fight at the age of 23 (their primes).
Naz hasn't beat a great fighter he fought no one but Barrera, and lost. I put Naseem in the same class as Camacho jr. (Never Tested, and when TESTED didn't past the TEST). He isnt in Sanchez's league
actually I'm a big fan of Cowdell, I always enjoyed watching him fight... one of the fights I would have loved to see would have been Cowdell vs Mcguigan. Pat was very underrated generally... he gave Sanchez one of his most difficult defences he really gave a great performance that night.