Prime Tyson Vs Prime Foreman, who wins?

cultus · Post by **cultus** » 20 Sep 2005, 17:08

While Tyson was quick for a man his size, he didn't have as much head movement as Frazier did.

NO.. Frazier moved his head irrationally and almost predictably sometimes exposeing himselfe and geting out of balance. He stood before a big man moving his head and not moving foward at all. Tyson moved back - side to side.. not standing .. if he atacked he came fast and planted soonafter being much more composed and hard to hit. If Forman makes a mistake it would be night train crash. Can you not see the difference in Frazier and Tyson. :) Am I really so biased to be the onlyone that would pick Tyson?.. no .. I see facts in Tyson's Favour.

wlvrne · Post by **wlvrne** » 20 Sep 2005, 17:13

theone wrote:rocky took punches more often than rolled with them, but his opponents didnt punch hard enough and werent strong enough to stop his foward motion. Tyson would not have that problem.

And Tyson would be able to withstand Rocky's lethal right hand?
I don't think so.

theone · Post by **theone** » 20 Sep 2005, 17:34

And Tyson would be able to withstand Rocky's lethal right hand?
I don't think so.

Yes he could. But it wouldnt matter, tyson would reach him first.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 20 Sep 2005, 18:35

cultus wrote:
While Tyson was quick for a man his size, he didn't have as much head movement as Frazier did.
NO.. Frazier moved his head irrationally and almost predictably sometimes exposeing himselfe and geting out of balance. He stood before a big man moving his head and not moving foward at all. Tyson moved back - side to side.. not standing .. if he atacked he came fast and planted soonafter being much more composed and hard to hit. If Forman makes a mistake it would be night train crash. Can you not see the difference in Frazier and Tyson. :) Am I really so biased to be the onlyone that would pick Tyson?.. no .. I see facts in Tyson's Favour.

I see many pluses in the young weel trained Tyson, but his "defense" was not one of them. While he did bob and weave on occasion, most of the time his defense as he moved forward was to simply move his upper body to each side as he moved forward. This was perfectly adequate until he faced someone with a plan and enough guts to implement that plan -- Douglas. I think Foreman would have been able to also execute a plan against Tyson. Foreman by early KO.

cultus · Post by **cultus** » 20 Sep 2005, 20:04

The Great John L wrote:
cultus wrote:
While Tyson was quick for a man his size, he didn't have as much head movement as Frazier did.
NO.. Frazier moved his head irrationally and almost predictably sometimes exposeing himselfe and geting out of balance. He stood before a big man moving his head and not moving foward at all. Tyson moved back - side to side.. not standing .. if he atacked he came fast and planted soonafter being much more composed and hard to hit. If Forman makes a mistake it would be night train crash. Can you not see the difference in Frazier and Tyson. :) Am I really so biased to be the onlyone that would pick Tyson?.. no .. I see facts in Tyson's Favour.
I see many pluses in the young weel trained Tyson, but his "defense" was not one of them. While he did bob and weave on occasion, most of the time his defense as he moved forward was to simply move his upper body to each side as he moved forward. This was perfectly adequate until he faced someone with a plan and enough guts to implement that plan -- Douglas. I think Foreman would have been able to also execute a plan against Tyson. Foreman by early KO.

If you think Douglas beat the real Mike Tyson then maybe you should watch some fights of early Tyson yourselfe.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 21 Sep 2005, 06:22

cultus wrote:If you think Douglas beat the real Mike Tyson then maybe you should watch some fights of early Tyson yourselfe.

Good timing. I just watched Tyson fight the dreaded Mike Jameson on ESPNC. Jameson was a rolly polly235+ fighter with limited skills, and Tyson was 10 months from beating Berbick, so you could say that he was nearing his peak. Tyson looked very much like the Tyson that fought Buster, and probably showed even less head movement. He actually looked human and got hit with quite a few right hands as he moved forward with only a fair amount of head movement. Perhaps he felt he didn't need much movement agains Jameson?

My point is that Tyson was mortal, as was Louis, Ali, etc. I was a HUGE Tyson fan until all of the legal problems turned him into a cartoonish figure. He was a ferociuos puncher, good defensive fighter, and had a very good chin. But he was beatable, as Douglas showed, and if you watch him in any of his best fights you can see that he had weaknesses that could be exploited. Douglas saw this and he and his trainer developed a fight plan that could beat Tyson. Tyson probably wasn't 100% that night, but he was far from a shell of the Tyson of 1987-1988 (his prime?), and in fact appeared more skilled than the Tyson that fought Jameson.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 21 Sep 2005, 07:04

The Great John L wrote:
cultus wrote:If you think Douglas beat the real Mike Tyson then maybe you should watch some fights of early Tyson yourselfe.
Good timing. I just watched Tyson fight the dreaded Mike Jameson on ESPNC. Jameson was a rolly polly235+ fighter with limited skills, and Tyson was 10 months from beating Berbick, so you could say that he was nearing his peak. Tyson looked very much like the Tyson that fought Buster, and probably showed even less head movement. He actually looked human and got hit with quite a few right hands as he moved forward with only a fair amount of head movement. Perhaps he felt he didn't need much movement agains Jameson?

My point is that Tyson was mortal, as was Louis, Ali, etc. I was a HUGE Tyson fan until all of the legal problems turned him into a cartoonish figure. He was a ferociuos puncher, good defensive fighter, and had a very good chin. But he was beatable, as Douglas showed, and if you watch him in any of his best fights you can see that he had weaknesses that could be exploited. Douglas saw this and he and his trainer developed a fight plan that could beat Tyson. Tyson probably wasn't 100% that night, but he was far from a shell of the Tyson of 1987-1988 (his prime?), and in fact appeared more skilled than the Tyson that fought Jameson.

Buster had the game plan and wasn't scared of Tyson. He executed it perfectly. Tyson wasn't as focused as he could have been but still Buster (on that night) would have given any version of Tyson hell. Maybe a more focused Tyson could have won the fight, maybe...

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 21 Sep 2005, 07:21

What if Tyson took prime Foreman to the later rounds? Sound like he'd have a better chance there because Prime Tyson could go 12 rounds and Foreman would tire a little back then.

cultus · Post by **cultus** » 21 Sep 2005, 07:36

Buster had the game plan and wasn't scared of Tyson. He executed it perfectly. Tyson wasn't as focused as he could have been but still Buster (on that night) would have given any version of Tyson hell. ...

agreed, Buster fought well and that night he would have given hell to any contender at that time.

Maybe a more focused Tyson could have won the fight, maybe

Maybe? You really think so don't you. I have to respect all of your opinions here but I absolutely disagree. Tyson threw nothin was wasted soon after .. there were like thousand clinches involed and Tyson almost landed zero punches. So now everybody beats young Tyson when they are not affraid? .. this is grazy. was Bruno, bomecrusher, Tucker, Tyrell afraid of Tyson.. as they did fallow there gameplan. These fights wasn't easy but it was clear who the better man was.

tiredoldngrey · Post by **tiredoldngrey** » 21 Sep 2005, 07:50

Tyson would not have done well with Foreman, who would've put both hands on Tyson's shoulders and shoved him backwards. When Mike, to keep upright, stood up straight George would've nailed him. When Mike tried to brace for the shove Foreman would've hit him with uppercuts. Just like he did to Frazier.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 21 Sep 2005, 08:32

cultus wrote:
Buster had the game plan and wasn't scared of Tyson. He executed it perfectly. Tyson wasn't as focused as he could have been but still Buster (on that night) would have given any version of Tyson hell. ...
agreed, Buster fought well and that night he would have given hell to any contender at that time.

Maybe a more focused Tyson could have won the fight, maybe
Maybe? You really think so don't you. I have to respect all of your opinions here but I absolutely disagree. Tyson threw nothin was wasted soon after .. there were like thousand clinches involed and Tyson almost landed zero punches. So now everybody beats young Tyson when they are not affraid? .. this is grazy. was Bruno, bomecrusher, Tucker, Tyrell afraid of Tyson.. as they did fallow there gameplan. These fights wasn't easy but it was clear who the better man was.

I think Bruno was afraid of Tyson. Bonecrusher just held for the entire fight and only opened up at the end. Buggs was scared too. Tyson's wins over Tucker and Thomas are his best because they were his best opponents.

As for the clinches well you'd expect a man working fof the jab to clinch whenever Tyson got close.

By the way I didn't say everyone beats a young Tyson when not afraid. I don't know where you plucked that one from.

I agree that Tyson was the better fighter than all those you mention but he loses to Foreman.

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 21 Sep 2005, 13:57

Nile4000 wrote:Tyson by late round ko

Are you sure?

Do you really think that Tyson had the heart & stamina to KO someone as strong as Foreman late on?

If he was to KO Foreman, it would have been early & I doubt he could do that; Foreman's chin was too good.

theone · Post by **theone** » 21 Sep 2005, 22:34

Sound like he'd have a better chance there because Prime Tyson could go 12 rounds and Foreman would tire a little back then.
George's stamina was not as bad as people think. This reputation was birthed right after the rumble in the jungle, when an exhausted George Foreman was knocked out by Ali. lets remember however that they were fighting in the jungle and the temperature inside the ring was over 100 degrees. Not to mention that George was throwing power punches the whole time. same thing when he lost to Jimmy Young under the blazing puerto rican sun, chasing around the running jimmy Young throwing bombs the whole way. At least in that fight he finished on his feet losing a 12 round decision. Not to mention he was not the same fighter by that time after fighting ali.

Rory McCloskey · Post by **Rory McCloskey** » 21 Sep 2005, 23:00

theone wrote: And Tyson would be able to withstand Rocky's lethal right hand?
I don't think so.

Yes he could. But it wouldnt matter, tyson would reach him first.

tyson was fast and he hit hard.. i agree he would start off the fight bul rushing rocky and would def. land the first combos... tyson would try to intimidate rocky... but i think the bigger variable is how rocky would handle it. tyson was great but he never fought a talent like rocky in his prime. rocky had a hell of a chin and a hell of a punch himself. rocky had alot of character and alot of heart and it would take more then a few haymakers to put him down, even if they are from tyson... i see were your coming from and i see it being quite reasonable... but do you really think that these characteristics wouldnt help the rock?

theone · Post by **theone** » 21 Sep 2005, 23:06

Man rory i wish i could say yes, but as much as I love the rock, i dont think he can take a shot from Tyson. Smaller weaker and older fighters hurt and dropped him, cut him and one even split open his nose. he didnt have the speed to match tyson or avoid the shots or the lateral movment to get out his way and was way to light to push Tyson off. i cant reasonalby and realisticly imagine Rocky winning in any way.

Rory McCloskey · Post by **Rory McCloskey** » 21 Sep 2005, 23:16

in most cases i would argue that size isnt everything.. like to say it rocky were to fight primo or willard or klitscho, but when your mentioning a HOF tyson who was rough tough and mean and one of the best the sport had ever produced.. so size would matter

ive been thinking alot latley and ive stepped up my interest in these classical fights latley and i came to a few conclusions

Tyson would KO Marciano- both strong, marciano just to light to compete... i think rocky might have been the better "boxer" but tyson was bigger faster and probly stronger... as much as i wanna root for marciano, id have to pick tyson. he sure was something in the mid 80's.

Patterson would Defeat Braddock- i have decided to check out floyd more intensley the past week after the discussion between us about the fight.. i was wrong... my vision got a little clouded and i wasnt totally up to speed on floyd. he possessed more power and speed then i originally thought. i agree that braddock would lose this fight, but i think he still has the power to be standing at the end of the fight. ( expecting that this fight would be in braddocks short second prime.. 1934-1935.) hell maybe he gets lucky and lands a few haymakers on floyd and knocks him down.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 21 Sep 2005, 23:27

Rory,

What steps did you take "to check out floyd more intensley "?

theone · Post by **theone** » 21 Sep 2005, 23:28

I've acutally changed my opinion on a topic we debated also. I've done some research my self and now admit i was very hard on Braddock. Braddock, although i still dont consider him a great fighter, is alot better than I gave him credit for.

Rory McCloskey · Post by **Rory McCloskey** » 21 Sep 2005, 23:43

Collins2000 wrote:Rory,

What steps did you take "to check out floyd more intensley "?

websites... books..video whatever i can use within my power...

I dont think he stacked up well against a fighter like sonny, i think he would have been able to hold on to the title longer if he didnt have to meet with a big bruising type like sonny.

I have his first fight with ali on video ( he never shoulda kept calling ali cassius clay.. sure he got in his head but he became ultra human.)

http://www.cmgworldwide.com/sports/patterso/fpcare.html

http://www.hickoksports.com/biograph/pa ... loyd.shtml

http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=009038

i recently purchased a book "An illstrated history of boxing" floyd has several pages in it, from his winning the title from archie moore, to his retirement at age 37

Loki · Post by **Loki** » 29 Sep 2005, 12:12

KOJOE90,

Who would have beaten Prime Iron Mike 1988/89.

I can only suggest Ali, Dempsey, Louis or Marciano.

In my humble opinion, none of these would have stood a chance.

Punches with Bad Intensions, Head Movement, Blood Curdling Power, Solid Chin, Intimidation and Speed.

I have never been Ali's greatest fan, but most would probably say he would have tormented Tyson into a mistake. Marciano would have matched him in power, but he was not the quickest. Dempsey is my personal favourite, but I fear he would have been have gone the same way as Louis and Marciano. KO'd.

State your case !!

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 29 Sep 2005, 13:16

Loki wrote:KOJOE90,

Who would have beaten Prime Iron Mike 1988/89.

I can only suggest Ali, Dempsey, Louis or Marciano.

In my humble opinion, none of these would have stood a chance.

Punches with Bad Intensions, Head Movement, Blood Curdling Power, Solid Chin, Intimidation and Speed.

I have never been Ali's greatest fan, but most would probably say he would have tormented Tyson into a mistake. Marciano would have matched him in power, but he was not the quickest. Dempsey is my personal favourite, but I fear he would have been have gone the same way as Louis and Marciano. KO'd.

State your case !!

Loki, my thoughts on Foreman vs Tyson from earlier in this thread

Foreman would CRUSH Tyson 9 out of 10 times and here are my reasons for thinking this.

(1) Mental strength. Foreman coped with fear better that Tyson in this fight I would not be surprised if Tyson was intimidated by Big George. During the referees instructions I can just imagine Tyson looking up into Georges cold killer eyes and thinking "Oh crap, what am I doing here?". It would then be all two easy for Tysons inner mental fragility to surface.

(2) Tysons bob and wave. This style would have little effect on Foreman as Foreman would just push him bag with those big strong arms of his. Tyson was never able to fight on the back foot. This would also keep Tyson within Foremans 'dangerzone' and allow Foreman to land his own clubbing, crushing shots.

(3) Pre-Frazier Foreman was not quite the wild swinging, crude fighter some seem to remember him as. Foreman had an accurate, very hard jab which wasn't the fasted jab ever but was well timed and very effective. His attacks could be a lot more accurate and well thought out that the wild punches he used against Ali. I allways felt that after Foreman destroyed Frazier with such ease he neglected his skills and he felt he could just woulk through anyone.

Tyson with his power and speed would of course always be dangerous but I just can't seeing him KO'ing Foreman.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 29 Sep 2005, 13:19

Loki.

I have not got the time (or energy) to go into Tyson Vs 'The greats' today in any serious depth but I would favoure Ali, Foreman, Louis & maybe Holmes to beat a peak Tyson and 'if' Frazier can get past the first 3 rounds I would favoure him to.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 29 Sep 2005, 15:08

I'd definitely add Johnson and Liston to that list too

Klee Gluckman · Post by **Klee Gluckman** » 08 Jun 2026, 22:23

You would be stunned at this fight.

It would be a replay of Tyson v Danny WIlliams.

Foreman would bash Mike. Mike is too small. Like Rooney said Foreman hits hard. Tyson refused to fight Georige. He knew he we would not beat him in 1990.

TO beat George you would need to be bigger. Tyson is just too small here.

Tyson will fall here.

Ambling Alp II · Post by **Ambling Alp II** » 09 Jun 2026, 20:01

Tyson did not "refuse" to fight Foreman. He would probably have destroyed Foreman in 1990.
A prime Foreman probably would have destroyed Tyson.

Prime Tyson Vs Prime Foreman, who wins?

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Re: Prime Tyson Vs Prime Foreman, who wins?

Re: Prime Tyson Vs Prime Foreman, who wins?