Tony Tucker vs Rocky Marciano

[HomicideHenry]

Size, imho, is a non-factor with Marciano because virtually every opponent he fought had the physical best of it from the start of his career, let alone skill advantages. He did fight such men as Carmine Vingo (who today would be a gigantic cruiserweight) who was 6'4" and he fought another man, whose name escapes me at the moment who was 6'5" and 250 pounds, but was of the journeyman bracket. Tucker was a great boxer, but his career speaks for itself, if he was so great he would of made it farther than he had, he was hot and cold while Marciano was always bringing his A game. I think Tucker could of went all 12/15 rounds, but it would have been a wide decision win for Marciano, his work rate was a middleweights pace for crying out loud.

[Controversial]

Size, imho, is a non-factor with Marciano because virtually every opponent he fought had the physical best of it from the start of his career, let alone skill advantages. He did fight such men as Carmine Vingo (who today would be a gigantic cruiserweight) who was 6'4" and he fought another man, whose name escapes me at the moment who was 6'5" and 250 pounds, but was of the journeyman bracket. Tucker was a great boxer, but his career speaks for itself, if he was so great he would of made it farther than he had, he was hot and cold while Marciano was always bringing his A game. I think Tucker could of went all 12/15 rounds, but it would have been a wide decision win for Marciano, his work rate was a middleweights pace for crying out loud.

Tucker was much bigger than any fighter Marciano fought so its hard to say how much that extra height, reach and weight would have, roughly 3-4 stone, 6+ inches in height and 14 inches in reach is a lot to give away, especially when the other guy can dig himself, has a very good chin, good skills and speed on his side.

Vingo is often bought up as a big opponent of Marcianos but I can't help but think Vingo gets quite overrated, his record wasn't particular great. He was 16-1 with only 7 kos against very poor opposition. In fact he fought 4 opponents he had already beaten twice (Washington, McManus, DiGiorgio, Conyer) so its not like he fought a great range of fighters either.

The big guy you are thinking was Humphrey Jackson (254lbs) but he was a poor fighter.

I think Tuckers movement and hand speed would be a nightmare for Marciano and I could quite easily envisage Marciano being quite handily outboxed.

[HomicideHenry]

Mind you I never said Vingo or the other guy were anywhere near Tucker's class. All I said was size wise, Marciano had fought men of that size. Vingo, in an honest evaluation of his career, was touted as being a prospect; whoever won that fight between Marciano/Vingo was going to break into the next step and be in the mix of the top fifteen period. He was (in a comparison to modern guys today) like Billy Zumbrun or Mo Harris, someone who was near the cusp but never got to live up to the potential cus Marciano almost killed him.

[dempseyfire]

This is the type of fight in which Tucker could look very good early but would get worn down by the pressure. I've found over time that Marciano's timing and skills get vastly under-rated by many . . he was not a crude slugger in the slightest. He developed an awkward but very effective style in which he could time and nail very skilled fighters with very hard punches; not a defensive wizard and his punch delivery could get sloppy, but his style combined with his freakish strength and power for his size and remarkable conditioning and toughness, equalled an all-time great fighter.

Tucker had athleticism and was big but people forget how he struggled vs smaller and pedestrian fighters on his way up to fighting Tyson. And vs Iron Mike, yeah he had some moments but it was mainly impressive for the amount of clinches Tony initiated . . that performance is often remembered for being much more than it was.

[SamWise72]

I've watched that fight a number of times, and it's my belief that Tucker would have won that fight had he not injured his hand. This is based on the first few rounds, and the way he came on strong from behind to stop Douglas.

[Controversial]

Vingo, in an honest evaluation of his career, was touted as being a prospect; whoever won that fight between Marciano/Vingo was going to break into the next step and be in the mix of the top fifteen period. He was (in a comparison to modern guys today) like Billy Zumbrun or Mo Harris, someone who was near the cusp but never got to live up to the potential cus Marciano almost killed him.

Was he really a big prospect? Lots of fighters are given the title "prospect" but end up being nowhere near as good as they are said to be. I'd be interested to see if rankings of Vingo are available at that time.

I tend to think his career gets somewhat exaggerated because he gave Marciano fits, Rocky even said it was the toughest fight of his entire career. Vingos record certainly doesn't suggest he was any great shakes.

[Controversial]

Tucker had athleticism and was big but people forget how he struggled vs smaller and pedestrian fighters on his way up to fighting Tyson.

To be fair all fighters have fights where they didn't look great or struggled with average opponents. Marciano did fight more than his fair share of tomato cans.

[Rover]

I've watched that fight a number of times, and it's my belief that Tucker would have won that fight had he not injured his hand. This is based on the first few rounds, and the way he came on strong from behind to stop Douglas.

Prime Tyson was better than that Douglas.

[SamWise72]

I've watched that fight a number of times, and it's my belief that Tucker would have won that fight had he not injured his hand. This is based on the first few rounds, and the way he came on strong from behind to stop Douglas.

Prime Tyson was better than that Douglas.

Agreed, but the Tucker fight was where I started to see Tyson as sliding. It had the double whammy of Tucker not looking scared, and Tyson not moving his head or throwing combinations as much any more. Tyson tended to get frustrated the longer a bout went; look at him in the late rounds against Smith or Tillis; he's still winning, but he's not one of those fighters who can turn it up more later. Tucker, I believe, was, and had the tools and the balls to actually give Tyson a fight. Given the hand injury, we'll never know, but I think if Tucker has both hands, Tyson either loses his 0 that night, or has a career defining performance winning through adversity. As it was, we didn't see him come up against adversity til Douglas, or come through it to win til Ruddock. On the basis of that fight, I was picking Biggs to beat him next time out, and Bruno later (wrong about both, of course, but Bruno had him hurt. I suppose you could argue that that was him winning through adversity).

[SamWise72]

(Watching the early rounds again now. Rooney is saying in the corner, and shouting during the rounds "Don't just look for one shot! Stop looking for one shot!")

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I've watched that fight a number of times, and it's my belief that Tucker would have won that fight had he not injured his hand. This is based on the first few rounds, and the way he came on strong from behind to stop Douglas.

Prime Tyson was better than that Douglas.

That was prime Tyson.

Dempsey is right,the Tucker fight was abysmal. He did very little but clutch Mike and Tyson never had much on answer for that because he was clueless inside after his robot combos on the way in.

[Rover]

I've watched that fight a number of times, and it's my belief that Tucker would have won that fight had he not injured his hand. This is based on the first few rounds, and the way he came on strong from behind to stop Douglas.

Prime Tyson was better than that Douglas.

Agreed, but the Tucker fight was where I started to see Tyson as sliding. It had the double whammy of Tucker not looking scared, and Tyson not moving his head or throwing combinations as much any more. Tyson tended to get frustrated the longer a bout went; look at him in the late rounds against Smith or Tillis; he's still winning, but he's not one of those fighters who can turn it up more later. Tucker, I believe, was, and had the tools and the balls to actually give Tyson a fight. Given the hand injury, we'll never know, but I think if Tucker has both hands, Tyson either loses his 0 that night, or has a career defining performance winning through adversity. As it was, we didn't see him come up against adversity til Douglas, or come through it to win til Ruddock. On the basis of that fight, I was picking Biggs to beat him next time out, and Bruno later (wrong about both, of course, but Bruno had him hurt. I suppose you could argue that that was him winning through adversity).

Tyson was already past-prime by August 87? When exactly was his prime?

[Ezzard]

There's no doubt that Tyson struggled on the inside...and being pushed back.

Berbick tried it and got smashed...so after that nobody really tried that approach (until Holy really). But it was a weakness he had. A short guy like that should have been murder on the inside.

[polecateddy]

So anyway, how is Tony Tucker not smashing the shit out of Rocky Marciano again? Poor guy's feet would be in the air twitching after two rounds, worse than Herbie Hide getting electroshock therapy!

[SaadOffTheDeck]

He just had no mind for the game. He was naturally gifted athletically, but he wasn't an instinctual fighter. No way to adapt, Buster's jab and determination handles the Tyson that fought Spinks too.

[keithmoonhangover]

He just had no mind for the game. He was naturally gifted athletically, but he wasn't an instinctual fighter. No way to adapt, Buster's jab and determination handles the Tyson that fought Spinks too.

An earlier version of Tyson, in top shape, with lots of fire, head movement and Rooney in his corner would have landed a lot more punches on Buster.

[polecateddy]

...everyone love that Tyson talk don't they - but what about Mr TNT himself, Tony Tucker. Guy's practically a boxing God!

[SamWise72]

Tyson was already past-prime by August 87? When exactly was his prime?

The answer is it wasn't very long. He still had the fear factor at this point, and Rooney could sometimes still get him to box right, but not always. He only ceased to be terrifying to most contenders after the Douglas fight. In the Tucker fight, after the 4th, Tucker doesn't give much back, but up til then, he's absolutely contesting the fight. I suppose the question is whetaer you believe in the arm injury.

[SamWise72]

The other undeclared agenda of mine here is that I don't think Tyson was ever as good as people give him credit for, so his prime wasn't as primey for me as it was for others. I think he was always beatable, were it not for the knee trembling fear. After he stopped moving his head and throwing combos, he was just a short heavyweight with a big punch.

[Nile4000]

Probably Rocky by decision.He would outwork Tony, who was good, but not as good and fast as many have made himout to be.

[Ezzard]

The other undeclared agenda of mine here is that I don't think Tyson was ever as good as people give him credit for, so his prime wasn't as primey for me as it was for others. I think he was always beatable, were it not for the knee trembling fear. After he stopped moving his head and throwing combos, he was just a short heavyweight with a big punch.

Your critique is probably a bit harsh but your sentiment probably right.

And not just Tyson...most big punchers tend to be overrated.

[Rover]

So anyway, how is Tony Tucker not smashing the shit out of Rocky Marciano again? Poor guy's feet would be in the air twitching after two rounds, worse than Herbie Hide getting electroshock therapy!

[Rover]

...everyone love that Tyson talk don't they - but what about Mr TNT himself, Tony Tucker. Guy's practically a boxing God!

[SaadOffTheDeck]

He just had no mind for the game. He was naturally gifted athletically, but he wasn't an instinctual fighter. No way to adapt, Buster's jab and determination handles the Tyson that fought Spinks too.

An earlier version of Tyson, in top shape, with lots of fire, head movement and Rooney in his corner would have landed a lot more punches on Buster.

He didn't have lots of head movement when someone was continually punching at him. The corner is a fair point, not so much Rooney because Mike wasn't capable of making in-fight adjustments but he definitely would have benefited by having someone who brought some endswell instead of a condom with water in it to put on his eye.

[keithmoonhangover]

He just had no mind for the game. He was naturally gifted athletically, but he wasn't an instinctual fighter. No way to adapt, Buster's jab and determination handles the Tyson that fought Spinks too.

An earlier version of Tyson, in top shape, with lots of fire, head movement and Rooney in his corner would have landed a lot more punches on Buster.

He didn't have lots of head movement when someone was continually punching at him. The corner is a fair point, not so much Rooney because Mike wasn't capable of making in-fight adjustments but he definitely would have benefited by having someone who brought some endswell instead of a condom with water in it to put on his eye.

Agreed. I think prime Tyson would have beaten the Douglas he fought that night - after a struggle. Even if he did win, Mike would have lost next fight anyway. I was picking Holyfield in 1990 and I won't be changing my mind anytime soon.