Carlos Monzon or Alexis Arguello

[Halfamill]

Who has the most impressive resume?

[Datsue]

Ooooh. Good one. I take it you're throwing down the eternal "Should an ATG ascend the weights, even if he doesn't unify, or is it nobler to stick around at the one weight & take on all-comers" scenario?

Myself, I lean toward the latter ideology in general, but in this specific case I'd say that Arguello has the better resume in that he beat better fighters. If that makes sense.

Olivares was a better win than Benvenuti, but Griffith's a better win than Kobayashi. Napoles & Griffith (again) are better than two wins over Escalera, but Bazooka Limon & Bobby Chacon are better than Gratien Tonna & Tony Mundine. Two wins over Rodriguez are really good, but do they outweigh Castillo, Navarette, Boza-Edwards, Watt, Mancini, Elizondo, Jose Luis Ramirez, Ganigan, Claude Noel & Billy Costello? I think not, myself. Also, I can't remember off the top of my head where Arguello fought many fighters coming up in weight (Olivares was a great great bantam, obviously, but he'd been at feather longer than Arguello I think), whereas Monzon's best wins are over smaller dudes.

So again, I'd say for traditional dominating-the-division old-school hardness, Monzon's the man. But if we're looking purely at fighters beaten, Arguello gets it.

[Counter-puncher]

agreed

[Rover]

Ooooh. Good one. I take it you're throwing down the eternal "Should an ATG ascend the weights, even if he doesn't unify, or is it nobler to stick around at the one weight & take on all-comers" scenario?

Myself, I lean toward the latter ideology in general, but in this specific case I'd say that Arguello has the better resume in that he beat better fighters. If that makes sense.

Olivares was a better win than Benvenuti, but Griffith's a better win than Kobayashi. Napoles & Griffith (again) are better than two wins over Escalera, but Bazooka Limon & Bobby Chacon are better than Gratien Tonna & Tony Mundine. Two wins over Rodriguez are really good, but do they outweigh Castillo, Navarette, Boza-Edwards, Watt, Mancini, Elizondo, Jose Luis Ramirez, Ganigan, Claude Noel & Billy Costello? I think not, myself. Also, I can't remember off the top of my head where Arguello fought many fighters coming up in weight (Olivares was a great great bantam, obviously, but he'd been at feather longer than Arguello I think), whereas Monzon's best wins are over smaller dudes.

So again, I'd say for traditional dominating-the-division old-school hardness, Monzon's the man. But if we're looking purely at fighters beaten, Arguello gets it.

You said two wins over Rodriguez; I think you meant Valdez.
Monzon also beat Briscoe.
I really don't attach much significance to wins over Castillo and Elizondo. Castillo fought competitively at feather, but he was not a great jr. light. Elizondo got destroyed in his only other title bout. As for Costello and Noel ,neither was that good; getting KD'd 5 times by Smith says it all about Costello, and Noel was a beltholder who got dispatched in short order.
Prime Arguello also lost to Fernandez (later avenged when both were past-prime).

[Datsue]

Ooooh. Good one. I take it you're throwing down the eternal "Should an ATG ascend the weights, even if he doesn't unify, or is it nobler to stick around at the one weight & take on all-comers" scenario?

Myself, I lean toward the latter ideology in general, but in this specific case I'd say that Arguello has the better resume in that he beat better fighters. If that makes sense.

Olivares was a better win than Benvenuti, but Griffith's a better win than Kobayashi. Napoles & Griffith (again) are better than two wins over Escalera, but Bazooka Limon & Bobby Chacon are better than Gratien Tonna & Tony Mundine. Two wins over Rodriguez are really good, but do they outweigh Castillo, Navarette, Boza-Edwards, Watt, Mancini, Elizondo, Jose Luis Ramirez, Ganigan, Claude Noel & Billy Costello? I think not, myself. Also, I can't remember off the top of my head where Arguello fought many fighters coming up in weight (Olivares was a great great bantam, obviously, but he'd been at feather longer than Arguello I think), whereas Monzon's best wins are over smaller dudes.

So again, I'd say for traditional dominating-the-division old-school hardness, Monzon's the man. But if we're looking purely at fighters beaten, Arguello gets it.

You said two wins over Rodriguez; I think you meant Valdez.
Monzon also beat Briscoe.
I really don't attach much significance to wins over Castillo and Elizondo. Castillo fought competitively at feather, but he was not a great jr. light. Elizondo got destroyed in his only other title bout. As for Costello and Noel ,neither was that good; getting KD'd 5 times by Smith says it all about Costello, and Noel was a beltholder who got dispatched in short order.
Prime Arguello also lost to Fernandez (later avenged when both were past-prime).

Yeah, good points, but I was doing that off the top of my bonce so (quibbles aside) it doesn't deflect the main thrust of my argument...

[elmersalsa]

If Arguello would have at least unified one of his 3 titles I would have put him above Monzon...If Arguello would have beaten the great Aaron Pryor then, I would have put Arguello probably as the greatest fighter ever or maybe a top 5 guy.

[Rover]

If Arguello would have at least unified one of his 3 titles I would have put him above Monzon...If Arguello would have beaten the great Aaron Pryor then, I would have put Arguello probably as the greatest fighter ever or maybe a top 5 guy.

Beating Pryor would've made Arguello the GOAT?

[Rover]

BTW, for all intents and purposes, Arguello did unify the lightweight titles.
He beat Watt for the WBC title.
O'Grady was the WBA champ.
The WBA then stripped O'Grady, and O'Grady was KO'd in a 15-rounder by Ganigan for the WAA title.
Arguello then KO'd Ganigan.
At the time he did that, the new WBA champ was Mancini, whom Arguello had KO'd that past October for his (Arguello's) WBC title.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Tough one, Alexis by a nose for me.

[elmersalsa]

If Arguello would have at least unified one of his 3 titles I would have put him above Monzon...If Arguello would have beaten the great Aaron Pryor then, I would have put Arguello probably as the greatest fighter ever or maybe a top 5 guy.

Beating Pryor would've made Arguello the GOAT?

Why not, sir? What is wrong with Arguello as being the greatest ever if beaten Pryor. Arguello was trying to do something at the time that was never been done. And he was trying to win against a formidable champion in an extraordinary fight. Arguello never lost his title belts, and from feather to jr welter, he beat something like 13 world champs.

[Rover]

If Arguello would have at least unified one of his 3 titles I would have put him above Monzon...If Arguello would have beaten the great Aaron Pryor then, I would have put Arguello probably as the greatest fighter ever or maybe a top 5 guy.

Beating Pryor would've made Arguello the GOAT?

Why not, sir? What is wrong with Arguello as being the greatest ever if beaten Pryor. Arguello was trying to do something at the time that was never been done. And he was trying to win against a formidable champion in an extraordinary fight. Arguello never lost his title belts, and from feather to jr welter, he beat something like 13 world champs.

Pac isn't the greatest ever just because he's done something that hadn't been done, either.
Sorry, but Robinson>Arguello.
Duran>Arguello.
Leonard>Arguello.
I could go on. Beating Pryor wouldn't have elevated Arguello over Robinson, for instance.

[elmersalsa]

[/quote]
Pac isn't the greatest ever just because he's done something that hadn't been done, either.
Sorry, but Robinson>Arguello.
Duran>Arguello.
Leonard>Arguello.
I could go on. Beating Pryor wouldn't have elevated Arguello over Robinson, for instance.[quote/]

Pacman's level of opposition could not reach Arguello's even though, Pacman's achievements are extraordinary. He is fighting from the flyweights and has won multiple titles. That is impressive. I put him above Arguello. But I believe that if Pacman beats someone like Floyd Mayweather, Jr or Sergio Martinez, the all-time greatest fighter for Pac should be in consideration or at least in a boxing debate.

I believe that Arguello beating Pryor would have elevated him over Robinson. This was at the time, an incredible feat if he would have won that terrific fight against a formidable champ. Also Arguello had a streak of 19 world title fight wins in 3 different weight classes against formidable champions. Did he ducked the great Roberto Duran? I don't know. But what he did in his prime was incredible. Much more incredible if he would had beaten Pryor.

Every fighter has a shot to be as the greatest ever. Arguello had his chance against Pryor in that extraordinary fight, I believe.

[Rover]

Pac isn't the greatest ever just because he's done something that hadn't been done, either.
Sorry, but Robinson>Arguello.
Duran>Arguello.
Leonard>Arguello.
I could go on. Beating Pryor wouldn't have elevated Arguello over Robinson, for instance.

[quote/]

Pacman's level of opposition could not reach Arguello's even though, Pacman's achievements are extraordinary. He is fighting from the flyweights and has won multiple titles. That is impressive. I put him above Arguello. But I believe that if Pacman beats someone like Floyd Mayweather, Jr or Sergio Martinez, the all-time greatest fighter for Pac should be in consideration or at least in a boxing debate.

I believe that Arguello beating Pryor would have elevated him over Robinson. This was at the time, an incredible feat if he would have won that terrific fight against a formidable champ. Also Arguello had a streak of 19 world title fight wins in 3 different weight classes against formidable champions. Did he ducked the great Roberto Duran? I don't know. But what he did in his prime was incredible. Much more incredible if he would had beaten Pryor.

Every fighter has a shot to be as the greatest ever. Arguello had his chance against Pryor in that extraordinary fight, I believe.[/quote]
A win over Pryor wouldn't have made Arguello the greatest ever, and a win over Floyd won't do that for Pac.
Prime Arguello also lost to Vilomar Fernandez. That's why the Duran fight didn't occur. Fernandez instead got the shot and was KO'd.

[man]

(i love those threads where i know i have to
STFU and just ... listen)