Nigel Benn IBHOF

[Rover]

I don't think there's really much debate that Benn has a better record.

Eubank was a wonderful fighter but he got a number of ify decisions...and defended against an awful lot of WBO contenders who shouldn't have really been in the ring with him.

But Chris could really soak it up. I think I'd back him to beat Benn on most nights but I think Benn had a clearly better career.

Benn was just as fortunate in that draw with Eubank.
He also got a very iffy decision over Gimenez Ferrera.
And many of Benn's victims weren't exactly top fighters (Galvano, Nardiello, Piper).
Both he and Eubank bested Wharton.
Add to that that Eubank beat Watson twice, who'd beaten Benn, and Eubank also beat Benn, and I'd say Eubank had the better career.

[yiddle]

benn belongs so does eubank and hamed for that matter

[Ezzard]

I don't think there's really much debate that Benn has a better record.

Eubank was a wonderful fighter but he got a number of ify decisions...and defended against an awful lot of WBO contenders who shouldn't have really been in the ring with him.

But Chris could really soak it up. I think I'd back him to beat Benn on most nights but I think Benn had a clearly better career.

Benn was just as fortunate in that draw with Eubank.
He also got a very iffy decision over Gimenez Ferrera.
And many of Benn's victims weren't exactly top fighters (Galvano, Nardiello, Piper).
Both he and Eubank bested Wharton.
Add to that that Eubank beat Watson twice, who'd beaten Benn, and Eubank also beat Benn, and I'd say Eubank had the better career.

Have you seen the Watson fights? Come on.

Eubank got more gifts than Orphan Annie on Christmas Day.

[orbtastic]

Iffy decision over Giminez? What?

[Rover]

benn belongs so does eubank and hamed for that matter

I'd vote for Eubank.

[Rover]

I don't think there's really much debate that Benn has a better record.

Eubank was a wonderful fighter but he got a number of ify decisions...and defended against an awful lot of WBO contenders who shouldn't have really been in the ring with him.

But Chris could really soak it up. I think I'd back him to beat Benn on most nights but I think Benn had a clearly better career.

Benn was just as fortunate in that draw with Eubank.
He also got a very iffy decision over Gimenez Ferrera.
And many of Benn's victims weren't exactly top fighters (Galvano, Nardiello, Piper).
Both he and Eubank bested Wharton.
Add to that that Eubank beat Watson twice, who'd beaten Benn, and Eubank also beat Benn, and I'd say Eubank had the better career.

Have you seen the Watson fights? Come on.

Eubank got more gifts than Orphan Annie on Christmas Day.

Yes, I've seen the Watson fights.
Eubank won them both, especially #2 where Watson was nearly killed. Watson also clearly beat Benn.

[Rover]

Iffy decision over Giminez? What?

That was a very close fight which the Showtime crew scored for the Paraguayan.

[orbtastic]

It wasn't close by any stretch of the imagination. There was a riot going off during the fight.

[Rover]

It wasn't close by any stretch of the imagination. There was a riot going off during the fight.

I thought it was close, as did American T.V. I remember Bruce Beck (who was filling in for Albert) expressing shock at the wide margins; "a one or two point fight for Benn, at best," he called it.

[orbtastic]

Ok, we get it, you don't want Benn in the IBHOF. You don't need to make nearly 50% of the posts in the thread.

[Datsue]

Benn was just as fortunate in that draw with Eubank.
He also got a very iffy decision over Gimenez Ferrera.
And many of Benn's victims weren't exactly top fighters (Galvano, Nardiello, Piper).
Both he and Eubank bested Wharton.
Add to that that Eubank beat Watson twice, who'd beaten Benn, and Eubank also beat Benn, and I'd say Eubank had the better career.

Have you seen the Watson fights? Come on.

Eubank got more gifts than Orphan Annie on Christmas Day.

Yes, I've seen the Watson fights.
Eubank won them both, especially #2 where Watson was nearly killed. Watson also clearly beat Benn.

Rover mate, Eubank might've squeaked the Watson fights (though I'll argue all day he should've lost the first), but over here in the UK he was known for a Bum of the Month tour against unknown South Americans, quite a few of which seemed to have outworked him. Ray Close gave him the shits. Dan Sherry made him look silly. Dan Schommer, Mauricio Amaral, loads of others whose names have faded into happy obscurity...

Benn went over the pond to fight. You have to understand the cultural wossname behind British boxing in the 70/80/90s: we might get a home-grown fighter who was decent, then he went over the pond & got destroyed. With the rise of the WBO it became more prevalent not to go abroad to seek out tough fights (ironically Benn's first title was the WBO; but he won it on the road, defended it on the road...).

Nigel wasn't like that. Nigel didn't shirk tough challenges & fight binmen in glorified sparring contests. He didn't hide at home padding his record. He didn't fvck about mate. He produced excitement, 99 times out of a 100. He went into the Italian's back yard to win his second title, a far more legitimate belt than Eubank ever won (I think you'll find the Italian was the bookie's favourite; it was certainly seen as a mammoth task for a flawed if exciting fighter; & he defended it versus a decent list of opposition, certainly better than the tired old men, novices & clubfighters Eubank managed to dredge up).

Eubank's character came out in extremis, but you simply did not suffer through the tidal wave of bullshit politicking, cherry-picked opposition & fvcking eyesore contests that were his title reigns.

Benn gave 110 %, every time. He won legitimately against tough men, not on his turf. He was more exciting than an exciting thing.

& there's no fvcking way anyone other than the Showtime broadcasters thought Juan Carlos Jiminez beat him; to even compare Eubank's litany of undeserved decisions... I don't have the words. You're not even wrong; the terms in which you are approaching this are fvcked from the start, mate. I think in philosophy they call it a "category error".

& downplaying Nigel's foreign excursions just shows your ignorance of the shat-upon, dire, withering & parochial shit-hole that was British boxing in the early 90s, which hilariously enough is remembered as a Golden Age by people who should know better.

I'm gonna duck out now, because I know you like to argue for days, meticulously picking at spare threads in an attempt to win some sort of rhetorical pissing contest. Not interested (in fact, I rarely am) in that, mate. But you're on a wrong'un here.

[Rover]

Ok, we get it, you don't want Benn in the IBHOF. You don't need to make nearly 50% of the posts in the thread.

I think it's a close call, but I'd vote no; wouldn't be outraged if he got in. I just think Eubank's more deserving.

[misterpunch]

what datsue said - and then some

[Rover]

what datsue said - and then some

We talk about weak comp for Eubank.
They both fought Wharton and Gimenez.
What about Gent, Perez, Piper and Nardiello?
Eubank beat Malinga; Benn lost.
Eubank beat Watson (and nearly beat him to death in the process); Benn lost.
And oh yeah, Eubank beat Benn, too.
That isn't just one common opponent. That's two plus head-to-head, but I'm sure you'll come back with how Benn was ahead by a point on two scorecards through eight rounds before he got KO'd.

Or how Benn fought five times in the States.
I go for quality over quantity/location, and the only quality win I'd put on Benn's resume from the States was Barkley (in terms of discussion of HOF resumes).
I don't care about how other British boxers failed. I treat all fighters equally. I don't give a pass (or extra credit) to a fighter because others from his nation didn't perform well.
And absolutely none of Benn's super middle resume was compiled in the States.

[Datsue]

what datsue said - and then some

We talk about weak comp for Eubank.
They both fought Wharton and Gimenez.
What about Gent, Perez and Nardiello?
Eubank beat Malinga; Benn lost.
Eubank beat Watson (and nearly beat him to death in the process); Benn lost.
And oh yeah, Eubank beat Benn, too.
That isn't just one common opponent. That's two plus head-to-head, but I'm sure you'll come back with how Benn was ahead by a point on two scorecards through eight rounds before he got KO'd.

Or how Benn fought five times in the States.
I go for quality over quantity/location, and the only quality win I'd put on Benn's resume from the States was Barkley (in terms of discussion of HOF resumes).
I don't care about how other British boxers failed. I treat all fighters equally. I don't give a pass (or extra credit) to a fighter because others from his nation didn't perform well.
And absolutely none of Benn's super middle resume was compiled in the States.

Ahem. Schommer. Amaral. Jervis. Sherry (was a "world" title fight; I know what you're about to say, but Nige didn't defend a title against him, & certainly fvck around for ten rounds then headbutt the kiddy, did he?). Ray Close (only scraped those two; loss & a draw for me). GARY FVCKING STRETCH.

GARY FVCKING STRETCH.

GARY FVCKING STRETCH.

GARY FVCKING STRETCH....

You've already implied that the best win on Eubank's resume is Benn. Well, the best name on Benn's resume... Is Gerald McLellan. Are you implying that beating Benn is a superior result to beating Gerald McLellan? Yes/No please...

PS: I never said he went to the States as a supermiddle. I said he went to Italy, a country known & storied over here for the difficulty of returning from with a win...

[Rover]

what datsue said - and then some

We talk about weak comp for Eubank.
They both fought Wharton and Gimenez.
What about Gent, Perez and Nardiello?
Eubank beat Malinga; Benn lost.
Eubank beat Watson (and nearly beat him to death in the process); Benn lost.
And oh yeah, Eubank beat Benn, too.
That isn't just one common opponent. That's two plus head-to-head, but I'm sure you'll come back with how Benn was ahead by a point on two scorecards through eight rounds before he got KO'd.

Or how Benn fought five times in the States.
I go for quality over quantity/location, and the only quality win I'd put on Benn's resume from the States was Barkley (in terms of discussion of HOF resumes).
I don't care about how other British boxers failed. I treat all fighters equally. I don't give a pass (or extra credit) to a fighter because others from his nation didn't perform well.
And absolutely none of Benn's super middle resume was compiled in the States.

Ahem. Schommer. Amaral. Jervis. Sherry (was a "world" title fight; I know what you're about to say, but Nige didn't defend a title against him, & certainly fvck around for ten rounds then headbutt the kiddy, did he?). Ray Close (only scraped those two; loss & a draw for me). GARY FVCKING STRETCH.

GARY FVCKING STRETCH.

GARY FVCKING STRETCH.

GARY FVCKING STRETCH....

You've already implied that the best win on Eubank's resume is Benn. Well, the best name on Benn's resume... Is Gerald McLellan. Are you implying that beating Benn is a superior result to beating Gerald McLellan? Yes/No please...

PS: I never said he went to the States as a supermiddle. I said he went to Italy, a country known & storied over here for the difficulty of returning from with a win...

Say Gary Stretch four times; so what? Eubank KO'd him.
Lou Gent
Lou Gent
Lou Gent
Lou Gent

And the Italy fight was stopped on cuts. Now, I'd understand your point if he'd gotten a decision in Italy.
As to your question, Benn had a better career than McClellan, so yes, a victory over him (Eubank's) is superior to a victory by Benn over McClellan, who did nothing in that division.
As for Close, how'd Benn do against him?

[Datsue]

Say Gary Stretch four times; so what? Eubank KO'd him.
Lou Gent
Lou Gent
Lou Gent
Lou Gent

And the Italy fight was stopped on cuts. Now, I'd understand your point if he'd gotten a decision in Italy.
As to your question, Benn had a better career than McClellan, so yes, a victory over him (Eubank's) is superior to a victory by Benn over McClellan, who did nothing in that division.

Lou Gent, I think you'll find, was not a retired ex-model who'd never had a fight at the weight before engaging in a world title fight. Stretch ticks all those boxes, mate.

& so we come to the nub of it. Eubank is superior to Benn because he beat him. Where Benn is superior to McLellan because he beat him.

Please to be asking: Joey Maxim superior to Ray Robinson, right? 'Cos he beat him, right? Or are there extenuating circumstances? & are you going to classify those extenuating circumstances as some sort of universal truth-cum-get out clause...?

Look, this is all a bit pointless. You need to sit down & watch a Chris Eubank box set. Really. Really watch it. All of his title fights from Benn to Collins. You will not be back here arguing, I guarantee you. In fact, you'll probably lapse into a coma.

[Rover]

Say Gary Stretch four times; so what? Eubank KO'd him.
Lou Gent
Lou Gent
Lou Gent
Lou Gent

And the Italy fight was stopped on cuts. Now, I'd understand your point if he'd gotten a decision in Italy.
As to your question, Benn had a better career than McClellan, so yes, a victory over him (Eubank's) is superior to a victory by Benn over McClellan, who did nothing in that division.

Lou Gent, I think you'll find, was not a retired ex-model who'd never had a fight at the weight before engaging in a world title fight. Stretch ticks all those boxes, mate.

& so we come to the nub of it. Eubank is superior to Benn because he beat him. Where Benn is superior to McLellan because he beat him.

Please to be asking: Joey Maxim superior to Ray Robinson, right? 'Cos he beat him, right? Or are there extenuating circumstances? & are you going to classify those extenuating circumstances as some sort of universal truth-cum-get out clause...?

Look, this is all a bit pointless. You need to sit down & watch a Chris Eubank box set. Really. Really watch it. All of his title fights from Benn to Collins. You will not be back here arguing, I guarantee you. In fact, you'll probably lapse into a coma.

Eubank not only beat Benn; he also faired better against common opponents.
The Robinson comparison fails because the fight you refer to was at light heavyweight, where Robinson accomplished nothing.
Robinson's better because of overall resume.
Benn had a better overall career than McClellan; that's why I rank him ahead of McClellan (plus his victory).
Eubank had weak title defenses; so did Benn. I don't think Stretch or Gent will be cited as HOF resume builders. Stretch's being a model is irrelevant; would you have said anything had he been a garbage man? Or an accountant for The British government?
And as for your claim that Stretch had never fought at middle before, that's just plain wrong.
Stretch was crap.
So was Gent.
So was Perez.
I'll argue as long as you like; I've seen many Eubank fights.
Was he more boring than Benn? Usually.
Better? Based on head to head (in a division where they both were accomplished and neither was shot--unlike Ali/Berbick, for instance) and common opponents? Yes.
Eubank had more garbage defenses because he defended his title more, but Benn had his share.

[Controversial]

Yes Benn does. As for Eubank from what I remember he was so frustrating to watch in so many fights, walking and posing around the ring for 2 and a half minutes a round and then throwing a few punches. The Benn fight aside he was like watching paint dry and often struggled to beat mediocre opposition. Saying that he was a good fighter and when it mattered against Benn he produced the goods.

[Rover]

Yes Benn does. As for Eubank from what I remember he was so frustrating to watch in so many fights, walking and posing around the ring for 2 and a half minutes a round and then throwing a few punches. The Benn fight aside he was like watching paint dry and often struggled to beat mediocre opposition. Saying that he was a good fighter and when it mattered against Benn he produced the goods.

The Watson fights (#2 mainly) were good also.

[misterpunch]

i'm going to take you to task ROVER because more than once on this thread youve said that chris beat michael watson and "nearly beat him to death in the process" WRONG!!!!!!! because your implication is NOT that watson nearly died, but that chris sooooooo badly beat him up over the whole fight that watson was put into a coma. THIS IS RUBBISH!! the fight was close - i had michael winning it - he was nearly killed by eubanks incerdible ONE PUNCH response to being decked himself and not becauswe MW was being outclassed. SO STOP THE CRAP ABOUT EUBANK BEING SO DOMINANT THAT HE NEARLY ENDS SOMEONES LIFE. COZ IT JUST AINT TRUE. why anybody even starts to answer your absurd posts is beyond me. i stop now. i will not get involved in answering someone so blinkered as yourself.

[misterpunch]

exactly - chris was losing the fight you know it I know it - the only two who dont are eubank and THAT MUG rover

[Rover]

i'm going to take you to task ROVER because more than once on this thread youve said that chris beat michael watson and "nearly beat him to death in the process" WRONG!!!!!!! because your implication is NOT that watson nearly died, but that chris sooooooo badly beat him up over the whole fight that watson was put into a coma. THIS IS RUBBISH!! the fight was close - i had michael winning it - he was nearly killed by eubanks incerdible ONE PUNCH response to being decked himself and not becauswe MW was being outclassed. SO STOP THE CRAP ABOUT EUBANK BEING SO DOMINANT THAT HE NEARLY ENDS SOMEONES LIFE. COZ IT JUST AINT TRUE. why anybody even starts to answer your absurd posts is beyond me. i stop now. i will not get involved in answering someone so blinkered as yourself.

I neither said that nor implied it. I stated a fact, so you've taken me to task for nothing. Pathetic.

[Rover]

I'm pretty sure Watson would have won on the cards if he'd have seen the bell.

Unfortunately, he didn't see it.

[Rover]

exactly - chris was losing the fight you know it I know it - the only two who dont are eubank and THAT MUG rover

He was losing to Benn, too.
Benn was losing to McClellan.
But Benn KO'd McClellan, and Eubank KO'd Benn and KO'd (and nearly killed) Watson.