Kevin "Punch bag" Johnson

[Horse]

Cooper said he was a superior fighter to Ali bar Ali's 'Negro features' which helped him beat
Cooper.

When did he say that?

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

Cooper said he was a superior fighter to Ali bar Ali's 'Negro features' which helped him beat
Cooper.

When did he say that?

He said it on a sky interview about his two fights with Ali.

[hurlock]

They said kj only had 3weeks notice so probably some rust there & he looked strong at the finish. He was a live opponent especially in today's market!
Fury has demonstrated great determination,fitness,& work rate for a BIG heavyweight & deserves credit as kj fought a decent vitali.i think it's pretty evident fury is not concussive as he got easily backed up late on despite being told to hold centre.
I think kj would be a great test for price who I edge over fury as super scouse has p&p power & pedigree! But I ain't sure or it hasn't been answerd if price has furys qualitys .british heavyweights IMO are on a all time high

ALL TIME high ?

How do you come to that conclusion ?

I would say that the Bruno, Lewis, Mason era was just as decent and before that you had the Cooper / Bugner / Dunn era. The only rivalry is Fury - Price, because Haye hammers them both and Chisora isn't worth mentioning. So apart from that, who else is there ?

I don't class Lennox as a Brit.

Cooper was at the end against bugner & too mention Dunn shows you up!!
We have price,fury,haye,white & Joshua on the way in a very weak division.
A lot of fights in the 70's & 80's were not televised & under the same scrutiny.
We are all very hard to please fans in the hardest sport

[JLP]

Cooper said he was a superior fighter to Ali bar Ali's 'Negro features' which helped him beat
Cooper.

When did he say that?

He said it on a sky interview about his two fights with Ali.

The way Henry put that comment was, to say the least, clumsy and far from ideal but in it's own way it was a compliment to Ali and his ancestors. For obvious reasons a lot of people are scared to publicly acknowledge that not everybody is the same and that our breeding/genetic profile does play a huge part in all aspects of our physical lives.

[Syntax Error]

Fury seems to have got his act together these days.

He's finally got into proper physical shape & he's pacing himself much better.

The HW division is now beginning to get slightly interesting, even if it is only at a domestic level, as we have got Price, Fury & Haye who could all combine to give us a series of interesting matchups.

[dalcumly]

Very good performance from Fury, in fact I think he's improving with each fight! The only problem I can see is that his jab is too short at times. The Klitschko's jabs seem to land when they are fully extended and right on the button, hence their power. Fury just needs to work on his timing and distance.
I now seriously think he'll beat Price, purely because he might possibly be more aggressive when they get down into the trenches, and can I also suggest that although Johnson just covered up and tried to stay the distance, he's a better opponent than anybody Price had fought. I don't think the Liverpool lad would have stopped him either.
The referee was over officious. There was no need to take a point off, and if the fight had been close, he wouldn't have risked it. His warning to both boxers at the start of one of the rounds was totally unnecessary, and in fact was in danger of interferring with Fury's tactics. If Fury had then launched into a 'gung-ho' attack on Johnson and got caught with a wild punch and knocked out, would the referee have caused it ?
After years of good referees in this country, we now find ourselves with a couple of buffoons, and the Board simply don't have the backbone to deal with them. They can of course deal with the poor timekeeper who called a short round last year, but won't have been travelling around the country, staying at the same hotels and eating at the same tables as Board officials!!

[Jon Saxon]

They said kj only had 3weeks notice so probably some rust there & he looked strong at the finish. He was a live opponent especially in today's market!
Fury has demonstrated great determination,fitness,& work rate for a BIG heavyweight & deserves credit as kj fought a decent vitali.i think it's pretty evident fury is not concussive as he got easily backed up late on despite being told to hold centre.
I think kj would be a great test for price who I edge over fury as super scouse has p&p power & pedigree! But I ain't sure or it hasn't been answerd if price has furys qualitys .british heavyweights IMO are on a all time high

ALL TIME high ?

How do you come to that conclusion ?

I would say that the Bruno, Lewis, Mason era was just as decent and before that you had the Cooper / Bugner / Dunn era. The only rivalry is Fury - Price, because Haye hammers them both and Chisora isn't worth mentioning. So apart from that, who else is there ?

I don't class Lennox as a Brit.

lol I am sure he will be butthurt.

Hmm lets have a think..

He was BORN here and stayed untill TWELVE YEARS OLD.

Man you are funny.

[CiganoBoxer]

Lennox not British
Was he not born and bred here + ive here until he was like 14-15 years old ? just saying :)

[Quixall]

Johnson has only resembled a punching bag against Vitali Klitschko and Fury. Does anyone think that Klitschko was significantly more impressive against Johnson than Fury was? If so, why?

It's rather like what Henry Cooper said to Joe Bugner after Bugner said " And don't forget Henry, i went the distance with Ali..." and Cooper replied " Well Joe, we could have all gone the distance with Ali, but some of us wanted to win...."

That is your answer.

That's not a good answer, because Johnson clearly didn't try harder against Klitschko than he did against Fury, even though the latter beat Johnson as convincingly as Klitschko did. Even when Johnson let his hands go he was unable to land anything significant.

Johnson fought as he usually does, but he was unable to have success because Fury is much better than him and the opponents who he has defeated.

And your point is ?

That somehow Fury getting a similar result to Vitali Klitschko makes Fury on a similar level ? If Fury is much better than the opponents Johnson has beaten, then the calibre of fighters Johnson has fought must be abysmal. I think it's more the case that he beat a durable fighter who couldn't care less whether he wins at this stage of his career and was there to pick up the pay cheeque. You could see Johnson was taking the piss with his comments before the fight, when he spoke about the fight being like a Gatti - Ward match up lol.

I am suprised that Johnson has won any fights at all because he doesn't seem to have any activity in the ring lol. He is rather like a Ray Mercer, where everyone didn't look good against him, couldn't stop him and yet most top fighters beat him.

[Quixall]

They said kj only had 3weeks notice so probably some rust there & he looked strong at the finish. He was a live opponent especially in today's market!
Fury has demonstrated great determination,fitness,& work rate for a BIG heavyweight & deserves credit as kj fought a decent vitali.i think it's pretty evident fury is not concussive as he got easily backed up late on despite being told to hold centre.
I think kj would be a great test for price who I edge over fury as super scouse has p&p power & pedigree! But I ain't sure or it hasn't been answerd if price has furys qualitys .british heavyweights IMO are on a all time high

ALL TIME high ?

How do you come to that conclusion ?

I would say that the Bruno, Lewis, Mason era was just as decent and before that you had the Cooper / Bugner / Dunn era. The only rivalry is Fury - Price, because Haye hammers them both and Chisora isn't worth mentioning. So apart from that, who else is there ?

I don't class Lennox as a Brit.

Cooper was at the end against bugner & too mention Dunn shows you up!!
We have price,fury,haye,white & Joshua on the way in a very weak division.
A lot of fights in the 70's & 80's were not televised & under the same scrutiny.
We are all very hard to please fans in the hardest sport

No my friend, i think your comment about me mentioning Dunn shows you up and your incorrect statement about Lennox also. Lennox was a brit, he left for Canada at the age of 12. He was born in London, fact. The Dunn, Bugner fight was quite hyped at the time, just as a Price- Fury fight would be right now. Are you seriously suggesting that Price and Fury are way beyond what Dunn was in his prime ?? . Joshua isn't even a professional !! All the major title fights of the 70's and 80's were televised on the bbc, especially the heavyweights, so you are talking out of your arse. Like i said, Haye would hammer Price and Fury and won't even fight again. What a laughabe post

[Quixall]

I don't class Lennox as a Brit.

Do you class Fury as one? He's as much British as Lewis.

I don't quite think he understands the concept that if you are born in this country, it definately makes you British !!

I loved watching Lennox and wouldn't have watched him if i thought he was Canadian.

[Quixall]

Lennox not British
Was he not born and bred here + ive here until he was like 14-15 years old ? just saying :)

He lived here untill he was 12 years of age........BUT

In defence of our friend, he did say that he didn't "view" Lennox as being British, which i pressume is because he fought for Canada in the games and had an American sounding accent. I am sure he recognises that he IS actually British ?????

[hurlock]

Richard Dunn could beat price & fury!!

That is fukin hilarious

Price would spark haye tomorrow!!

[Quixall]

Richard Dunn could beat price & fury!!

That is fukin hilarious

Price would spark haye tomorrow!!

You sound like a man who knows he has lost an argument or one who is on drugs........

Who exactly has Price or Fury for that matter fought for you to rate them so highly ? people talk about this Price as if he is the next big thing. Who has he fought to date ?

I think you know exactly what Haye would do to Price.

This fuking Price, decent, not bad, has potential, but talk about hype.

[Mcglinchey9]

I think fury looked a hell of a lot better against johnson, than vitali did.

[Mcglinchey9]

Richard Dunn could beat price & fury!!

That is fukin hilarious

Price would spark haye tomorrow!!

price would spark haye?
are you on drugs?

[hurlock]

Fair enough on Lennox I thought he moved at 1 or somthing silly & he had a silly accent .both mason & Bruno I supported against him.

We have seen how haye deals with giants he runs & stays outside.he has the power to chin price but does not have the minerals to step in.i can't believe haye getting the nod over valuev in that bore fest.i did appreciate that haye broke his hand but have seen many do a lot better & get robbed.

[crusader]

And your point is ?

That somehow Fury getting a similar result to Vitali Klitschko makes Fury on a similar level ? If Fury is much better than the opponents Johnson has beaten, then the calibre of fighters Johnson has fought must be abysmal. I think it's more the case that he beat a durable fighter who couldn't care less whether he wins at this stage of his career and was there to pick up the pay cheeque. You could see Johnson was taking the piss with his comments before the fight, when he spoke about the fight being like a Gatti - Ward match up lol.

I am suprised that Johnson has won any fights at all because he doesn't seem to have any activity in the ring lol. He is rather like a Ray Mercer, where everyone didn't look good against him, couldn't stop him and yet most top fighters beat him.

My first point concerned the unsuitability of your example. Bugner seemed to argue that his performance against Ali was superior to Cooper's because he lasted the distance and Cooper didn't, while Cooper noted that Bugner lasted the distance only because he didn't take as many risks. In the case of Fury-Johnson and Klitschko-Johnson, the common opponent did not try harder against Klitschko than against Johnson, so differing levels of effort cannot account for any variance in results.

My general point was that Johnson is a habitually low output fighter who gets shut down only by top opponents, meaning that the level of opponent—not simply Johnson's shortcomings—largely accounts for his poor performances. In his bouts against then fringe contenders Ibragimov and Leapai, Johnson used the same style and low output, but landed far more often and was hit far left often because of his opponents' limitations. The same trend is seen in Johnson's bouts with opponents such as Sosnowski and Vargas; his speed, solid jab, and good defense enabled him to win despite his low output. Your surprise at his victories shows that you're focused narrowly on his losing efforts, and not the totality of his career. You also mention that top fighters beat, but couldn't stop Mercer, which implies that his losses were related more to the exceptional abilities of his conquerors than a general absence of abilities on his part.

Moreover, even a 'punch bag' would do better against some opponents than others. How often a fighter is hit and how often they hit their opponent are still contingent on the stamina and offensive and defensive abilities of that opponent. I mention Klitschko because he's a top HW, yet he landed no more easily on and was hit no less easily by Johnson than Fury was. That the latter's performance and success against a common opponent fighting in a similar manner is comparable to Klitschko's suggests that Fury did a good job in the circumstances.

When Fury's performance is unpacked, I can note several things that he did well or sufficiently: his output was high and his stamina held; his punches were quick and snappy; he threw several combinations of 3-5 punches; his punch selection was diverse; he avoided high percentage of Johnson's punches; and he controlled the fight on the inside and outside. He could not hurt Johnson, but neither could Vitali Klitschko, who landed nearly 300 punches on the American. Fury's conditioning and abilities have improved significantly over the past several years, and I think he is a top ten heavyweight with a good chance of beating anyone bar the Klitschkos and Haye.

[Counter-puncher]

When Fury's performance is unpacked, I can note several things that he did well or sufficiently: his output was high and his stamina held; his punches were quick and snappy; he threw several combinations of 3-5 punches; his punch selection was diverse; he avoided high percentage of Johnson's punches; and he controlled the fight on the inside and outside. He could not hurt Johnson, but neither could Vitali Klitschko, who landed nearly 300 punches on the American. Fury's conditioning and abilities have improved significantly over the past several years, and I think he is a top ten heavyweight with a good chance of beating anyone bar the Klitschkos and Haye.

decent points. I'd add that his footwork looked very good, to me, for a very tall guy. he established a nice rythmn to it.

[stujones]

[quote="JLP"]
Very clumsy and not true in the fact that Ali was the far superior boxer. I am sure Cooper was refering to his cutting and yes, there is a biological truth in that.

Just as in some other sports white people have a biological/genetic advantage such as Swimming.

[Quixall]

And your point is ?

That somehow Fury getting a similar result to Vitali Klitschko makes Fury on a similar level ? If Fury is much better than the opponents Johnson has beaten, then the calibre of fighters Johnson has fought must be abysmal. I think it's more the case that he beat a durable fighter who couldn't care less whether he wins at this stage of his career and was there to pick up the pay cheeque. You could see Johnson was taking the piss with his comments before the fight, when he spoke about the fight being like a Gatti - Ward match up lol.

I am suprised that Johnson has won any fights at all because he doesn't seem to have any activity in the ring lol. He is rather like a Ray Mercer, where everyone didn't look good against him, couldn't stop him and yet most top fighters beat him.

My first point concerned the unsuitability of your example. Bugner seemed to argue that his performance against Ali was superior to Cooper's because he lasted the distance and Cooper didn't, while Cooper noted that Bugner lasted the distance only because he didn't take as many risks. In the case of Fury-Johnson and Klitschko-Johnson, the common opponent did not try harder against Klitschko than against Johnson, so differing levels of effort cannot account for any variance in results.

My general point was that Johnson is a habitually low output fighter who gets shut down only by top opponents, meaning that the level of opponent—not simply Johnson's shortcomings—largely accounts for his poor performances. In his bouts against then fringe contenders Ibragimov and Leapai, Johnson used the same style and low output, but landed far more often and was hit far left often because of his opponents' limitations. The same trend is seen in Johnson's bouts with opponents such as Sosnowski and Vargas; his speed, solid jab, and good defense enabled him to win despite his low output. Your surprise at his victories shows that you're focused narrowly on his losing efforts, and not the totality of his career. You also mention that top fighters beat, but couldn't stop Mercer, which implies that his losses were related more to the exceptional abilities of his conquerors than a general absence of abilities on his part.

Moreover, even a 'punch bag' would do better against some opponents than others. How often a fighter is hit and how often they hit their opponent are still contingent on the stamina and offensive and defensive abilities of that opponent. I mention Klitschko because he's a top HW, yet he landed no more easily on and was hit no less easily by Johnson than Fury was. That the latter's performance and success against a common opponent fighting in a similar manner is comparable to Klitschko's suggests that Fury did a good job in the circumstances.

When Fury's performance is unpacked, I can note several things that he did well or sufficiently: his output was high and his stamina held; his punches were quick and snappy; he threw several combinations of 3-5 punches; his punch selection was diverse; he avoided high percentage of Johnson's punches; and he controlled the fight on the inside and outside. He could not hurt Johnson, but neither could Vitali Klitschko, who landed nearly 300 punches on the American. Fury's conditioning and abilities have improved significantly over the past several years, and I think he is a top ten heavyweight with a good chance of beating anyone bar the Klitschkos and Haye.

I generally feel that the heavyweight division, talent wise, is appalling. Johnson looks very ordinary to me, so i don't think it put's Fury in a good light because he beat him. Lot's of fighters have fought Viatli or Wlad that didn't deserve to be in the same ring as the brothers and Johnson was another one of those, along with Thompson, Chambers et el. The Brothers are the last of the heavyweights from a era where you had Bowe, Holyfield, Tyson, Lewis and other decent fighters like Morrison. Today, the brothers, though in the twighlight of their careers and rather limited technically, completely dominate fighters who are supposed to be seen as "contenders", where in reality they are a few levels below, so far has the heavyweight divison fallen. The fact that Fury could possibly beat anyone outside of Klitschko and Haye isn't really a testament on how good a fighter he is, but how poor the division is at the moment. Fury is ok, i thought he fought a smart fight, but the result was never in question for me.

[Quixall]

He is rather like a Ray Mercer, where everyone didn't look good against him, couldn't stop him and yet most top fighters beat him.

Johnson is nothing like Mercer. Mercer could dig, beat guys who are better than the ones Johnson has beaten and he pushed Lewis and Holyfield hard. Stylistically, ability-wise and in terms of their careers they are on opposite sides of the spectrum. Unless you meant that they’re both black and fat, in which case, yes, they could be twins.

I am not stupid enough to see Johnson in the same light as Ray Mercer !! Just read my post above to see that. All i meant was that people looked awkward against Mercer, ie, Lewis, but most of the top guys beat him, but couldn't stop him. Likewise, Klitschko couldn't stop Johnson, but ultimately beat. That was all my point was. People look ordinary against Johnson at times, but hey, i have seen that Lewis era and i know how good Ray Mercer was and Johnson couldn't lick his boots.

[Quixall]

This is getting a little tiresome and it's splitting hairs...........

I was just saying that Johnson is hard to knock out and the fact that he went 12 rounds with Vitali and then three years later went 12 rounds with Fury, doesn't mean that Fury is on Vitali's level.

Simples.

[Quixall]

This is getting a little tiresome and it's splitting hairs...........

I was just saying that Johnson is hard to knock out and the fact that he went 12 rounds with Vitali and then three years later went 12 rounds with Fury, doesn't mean that Fury is on Vitali's level.

Simples.

No probs. I just found it odd that you didn't compare him to a shit Buster Mathis, IE. Buster Mathis Junior, or Larry Donald, who were much better fits than Mercer.

I think it was because i kind of have a lot of respect for Mercer and liked him as a fighter.

[fasteddie]

Was I dreaming or was Johnson saying this will be the best fight since gatti v ward ? Zzzzz

i know i was laughing at that comment too,johnson is a shit as they come and if he is the best the u.s has to offer then heavyweight boxing is well and truelly dead in the states. as for price fighting him i would stick my neck on the line and say price would stop this sloath in 6 rounds.