Bowe Vs. Tyson

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Good for you, I'll disagree. I don't think Marco Antonio Barrera has been Pacquaio's toughest opponent, but you go ahead and take Manny's word for it.

[keithmoonhangover]

Good for you, I'll disagree. I don't think Marco Antonio Barrera has been Pacquaio's toughest opponent, but you go ahead and take Manny's word for it.

Again, Manny would know a hell of a lot more about what it's like to share the ring with someone than you would. Tyson would know a hell of a lot more about what his training was like than you.

Here's the thing about Bowe. He said that Herbie Hide hit him harder than anyone. D'ya know why? Because he didn't have the guts to share the ring with anyone who hit harder. He fought a completely shot Michael Dokes instead of fighting Lennox Lewis. What does that tell you about Bowe as a 'champion'. He was a joke. Take Holyfield of his CV and what are you left with? Sweet FA.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Good for you, I'll disagree. I don't think Marco Antonio Barrera has been Pacquaio's toughest opponent, but you go ahead and take Manny's word for it.

Again, Manny would know a hell of a lot more about what it's like to share the ring with someone than you would. Tyson would know a hell of a lot more about what his training was like than you.

Here's the thing about Bowe. He said that Herbie Hide hit him harder than anyone. D'ya know why? Because he didn't have the guts to share the ring with anyone who hit harder. He fought a completely shot Michael Dokes instead of fighting Lennox Lewis. What does that tell you about Bowe as a 'champion'. He was a joke. Take Holyfield of his CV and what are you left with? Sweet FA.

Why bother talking to me? Just tweet Boxers and call it a day. Tyson has nothing resembling Holyfield on his ledger, nothing even close to it, so that point fails as much as most of the rubbish you're spewing in this thread.

He probably said Hide hit him the hardest because he beat the shit out of Herbie, the same reason that Pac picked Barrera over guys who have beaten him. Boxers always do that, it's part of the mentality and anyone with sense takes most of it with a grain of sand. By all means, take their word as gospel. I couldn't care less.

If Bowe was a joke of a champion, what was Douglas?

[Rover]

I've always believed Bowe would win.....prime vs prime....problem is that Bowe's prime was measured in nanoseconds.

Wasn't it longer than Tyson's? Aren't we supposed to believe that "Mike" was never the same after losing Cus, Rooney & the gang?

Wasn't "Prime Tyson" already past his prime until he was 23 and got knocked out by by that fearsome puncher Buster Douglas? (Conveniently giving giving his fans the excuse of never losing in his prime?)

We are supposed to throw out the 30-year old Tyson's loss to the shop-worn 34-year Holyfield, aren't we?

I often wonder if Tyson's prime ended in the womb.

[Rover]

Good for you, I'll disagree. I don't think Marco Antonio Barrera has been Pacquaio's toughest opponent, but you go ahead and take Manny's word for it.

Again, Manny would know a hell of a lot more about what it's like to share the ring with someone than you would. Tyson would know a hell of a lot more about what his training was like than you.

Here's the thing about Bowe. He said that Herbie Hide hit him harder than anyone. D'ya know why? Because he didn't have the guts to share the ring with anyone who hit harder. He fought a completely shot Michael Dokes instead of fighting Lennox Lewis. What does that tell you about Bowe as a 'champion'. He was a joke. Take Holyfield of his CV and what are you left with? Sweet FA.

Why bother talking to me? Just tweet Boxers and call it a day. Tyson has nothing resembling Holyfield on his ledger, nothing even close to it, so that point fails as much as most of the rubbish you're spewing in this thread.

He probably said Hide hit him the hardest because he beat the shit out of Herbie, the same reason that Pac picked Barrera over guys who have beaten him. Boxers always do that, it's part of the mentality and anyone with sense takes most of it with a grain of sand. By all means, take their word as gospel. I couldn't care less.

If Bowe was a joke of a champion, what was Douglas?

So, just so I've got this right, we're supposed to discount/not place emphasis on Tyson's losses because Tyson later said he wasn't trying hard?
Shit, that's the perfect formula for avoiding giving credit to any opponent.
"Yeah, that sonuvabitch beat me, but I wasn't really trying hard."

[keithmoonhangover]

Good for you, I'll disagree. I don't think Marco Antonio Barrera has been Pacquaio's toughest opponent, but you go ahead and take Manny's word for it.

Again, Manny would know a hell of a lot more about what it's like to share the ring with someone than you would. Tyson would know a hell of a lot more about what his training was like than you.

Here's the thing about Bowe. He said that Herbie Hide hit him harder than anyone. D'ya know why? Because he didn't have the guts to share the ring with anyone who hit harder. He fought a completely shot Michael Dokes instead of fighting Lennox Lewis. What does that tell you about Bowe as a 'champion'. He was a joke. Take Holyfield of his CV and what are you left with? Sweet FA.

Why bother talking to me? Just tweet Boxers and call it a day. Tyson has nothing resembling Holyfield on his ledger, nothing even close to it, so that point fails as much as most of the rubbish you're spewing in this thread.

He probably said Hide hit him the hardest because he beat the shit out of Herbie, the same reason that Pac picked Barrera over guys who have beaten him. Boxers always do that, it's part of the mentality and anyone with sense takes most of it with a grain of sand. By all means, take their word as gospel. I couldn't care less.

If Bowe was a joke of a champion, what was Douglas?

A few questions for you Saad.

1. As you seem to know better than the actual fighters..... Who hit Bowe the hardest?
2. What period of time do you class as Bowe's prime?
3. What period of time do you class as Tyson's prime?
4. On your all time list of heavyweights, who do you rank higher, Bowe or Tyson?
5. On your list of of hardest hitting boxers, who do you rank higher, Bowe or Tyson?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

1. Golota or Holyfield
2. I'm not looking up dates for you, but it was clearly over by the first Golota fight.
3. Until he went to prison
4. Tyson
5. Even

[keithmoonhangover]

1. Golota or Holyfield
2. I'm not looking up dates for you, but it was clearly over by the first Golota fight.
3. Until he went to prison
4. Tyson
5. Even

When do you think thier primes began?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

It's honestly too irrelevant to the discussion for me to bother looking anything up.

Off the top of my head after Tyson dealt with adversity against Tillis and Bowe did against Tubbs and Biggs I think they were ready to challenge the top of the division. So right around there would be a good starting point. Holyfield ended Bowe's prime and prison ended Tyson's.

[keithmoonhangover]

Another few questions, if you don't mind.

1. What is the basis for you regarding Bowe and Tyson's power as equal?
2. How do you think Bowe would have done if he'd fought the 1988 version of Michael Spinks?
3. How do you think Bowe would have done if he'd fought the 1988 version of Larry Holmes?
4. What was the perfect style to beat a prime Bowe?

[BoxBuzz]

Interesting, Saad and I don't always agree along the way, but his answers to your Bowe-Tyson test earn him a grade of A+ from my point of view.

[Ambling Alp II]

I've always believed Bowe would win.....prime vs prime....problem is that Bowe's prime was measured in nanoseconds.

Wasn't it longer than Tyson's? Aren't we supposed to believe that "Mike" was never the same after losing Cus, Rooney & the gang?

Wasn't "Prime Tyson" already past his prime until he was 23 and got knocked out by by that fearsome puncher Buster Douglas? (Conveniently giving giving his fans the excuse of never losing in his prime?)

We are supposed to throw out the 30-year old Tyson's loss to the shop-worn 34-year Holyfield, aren't we?

Tyson admits that he stopped training properly after Spinks. He had a change of trainer. Issues out of the ring. Etc etc. he would know better than some randoms on a boxing forum.

By saying that he really isn't admitting anything. He is making an excuse. Lots of fighters have changes of trainers and every fighter has issues outside of the ring.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Another few questions, if you don't mind.

1. What is the basis for you regarding Bowe and Tyson's power as equal?
2. How do you think Bowe would have done if he'd fought the 1988 version of Michael Spinks?
3. How do you think Bowe would have done if he'd fought the 1988 version of Larry Holmes?
4. What was the perfect style to beat a prime Bowe?

1. Bowe was probably a bit harder shot for shot and Tyson's speed allowed him to get his power shots in more frequently. Right there at the same level.

2. He would have knocked him out.

3. He would have knocked him out.

4. There is no perfect style for the guy that fought Holyfield, but the best one would involve mobility. I think having a jab that can work with his is a must. One of the reasons I strongly favor him over Tyson.

Edit: Holmes may have been a decision, Mike's speed really messed with his diminished timing. Neither of them stop an older Holmes imo.

[keithmoonhangover]

By saying that he really isn't admitting anything. He is making an excuse. Lots of fighters have changes of trainers and every fighter has issues outside of the ring.

Firstly, I was never a Tyson fan, I was Holyfield through and through, so I'm not some fanboy getting an erection whenever I watch Tyson vs Reggie Gross.

I remember before the Douglas fight, that in the build up, there were plenty of stories in the media that Tyson hadn't been training properly. It was mentioned in the pre-fight broadcast in the UK and that his mind wasn't on the job. He also got knocked down in sparring by Greg Page. From those rumours and facts, I think it's as clear as day, that Tyson wasn't in peak condition, physically or mentally.

Do you disagree?

[keithmoonhangover]

Another few questions, if you don't mind.

1. What is the basis for you regarding Bowe and Tyson's power as equal?
2. How do you think Bowe would have done if he'd fought the 1988 version of Michael Spinks?
3. How do you think Bowe would have done if he'd fought the 1988 version of Larry Holmes?
4. What was the perfect style to beat a prime Bowe?

1. Bowe was probably a bit harder shot for shot and Tyson's speed allowed him to get his power shots in more frequently. Right there at the same level.

2. He would have knocked him out.

3. He would have knocked him out.

4. There is no perfect style for the guy that fought Holyfield, but the best one would involve mobility. I think having a jab that can work with his is a must. One of the reasons I strongly favor him over Tyson.

Edit: Holmes may have been a decision, Mike's speed really messed with his diminished timing. Neither of them stop an older Holmes imo.

What makes you say that Bowe was harder shot for shot?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

By saying that he really isn't admitting anything. He is making an excuse. Lots of fighters have changes of trainers and every fighter has issues outside of the ring.

I remember before the Douglas fight, that in the build up, there were plenty of stories in the media that Tyson hadn't been training properly. It was mentioned in the pre-fight broadcast in the UK and that his mind wasn't on the job. He also got knocked down in sparring by Greg Page. From those rumours and facts, I think it's as clear as day, that Tyson wasn't in peak condition, physically or mentally.

Do you disagree?

I do, I never heard a word of Tyson not training properly until many years later.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Another few questions, if you don't mind.

1. What is the basis for you regarding Bowe and Tyson's power as equal?
2. How do you think Bowe would have done if he'd fought the 1988 version of Michael Spinks?
3. How do you think Bowe would have done if he'd fought the 1988 version of Larry Holmes?
4. What was the perfect style to beat a prime Bowe?

1. Bowe was probably a bit harder shot for shot and Tyson's speed allowed him to get his power shots in more frequently. Right there at the same level.

2. He would have knocked him out.

3. He would have knocked him out.

4. There is no perfect style for the guy that fought Holyfield, but the best one would involve mobility. I think having a jab that can work with his is a must. One of the reasons I strongly favor him over Tyson.

Edit: Holmes may have been a decision, Mike's speed really messed with his diminished timing. Neither of them stop an older Holmes imo.

What makes you say that Bowe was harder shot for shot?

My opinion

[Rover]

How does Tyson's having been KD'd in sparring indicate a deficiency in training? People can get caught in sparring. The only reason that's so hyped is because there's film of it. Was he ever dropped in sparring before?

[Cus D'Amato]

Just a link to clarify things:
http://articles.latimes.com/1990-02-23/ ... mike-tyson

Ex-Associates Wonder if Tyson Has Lost It : Boxing: Former champion reportedly had terrible training sessions before Douglas fight.
February 23, 1990|EARL GUSTKEY | TIMES STAFF WRITER

Matt Baranski and Johnny Tocco, veteran boxing trainers who have worked extensively with former heavyweight champion Mike Tyson, are wondering if Tyson will ever be the same after the beating he absorbed from Buster Douglas in Tokyo.

Before Tyson fired him and trainer Kevin Rooney in 1988, Baranski had worked as the cut man in Tyson's corner for 35 fights.

Baranski, who lives in Selkirk, N.Y., said Thursday that he had visited Tyson for an hour recently in nearby Catskill, N.Y., where Tyson lives, and found the former champion unwilling to even talk about the Douglas fight.

"He said he'd be back, that he'd get his title back, but that was about it," Baranski said. "He didn't want to talk about the fight. All he told me was, 'I'll be back.'

"When I asked him if he was interested in getting back with Kevin and me, the old team, he just kind of shrugged his shoulders.

"Right now, I think it's a case of pride . . . he doesn't want to swallow his pride.

"He took a beating, and he knows it. Mike has a lot to think about. I don't think Mike can be a better fighter than he was, not after this fight. But I think he'll beat Buster the next time. "People don't realize it, but Mike has taken a lot of shots in the gym. I didn't see him train for Douglas, but I've heard he looked really bad in sparring. I heard Trevor Berbick gave him a hard time in sparring and if that's true, then Mike is really gone.

"The ninth-round punches Mike took from Douglas hurt him more than the ones in the 10th that took him out."

Tocco, the 79-year-old trainer and owner of the Ringside Gym in Las Vegas, said much the same of Tyson, who trained at his gym for two weeks before leaving for Japan in mid-January.

"It was the worst I've seen him," Tocco said. "He was not in condition when he left here.

"He was having a rough time with Greg Page, he could do nothing with Trevor Berbick and even Oliver McCall gave him a bad time one day. Page hadn't looked that good against anyone in years.

"To me, (Tyson) isn't the same (as) when the other people had him. He's too protected now. When Bill Cayton and Kevin Rooney had him, they'd walk in the gym, say hello to everybody, and work out with everyone else who was here.

"Now, (promoter Don) King's people walked in here the first day and ordered everyone out of the gym. I said, 'Hold it, I own this gym, not Don King. These guys stay.'

"Mike's problem is Don King, period. Here's a kid off the streets, a multimillionaire, a pretty bright kid actually. I give him a lot of credit for what he's done in a short time.

"But he's changed so much with King managing him. He doesn't have to make decisions for himself anymore. Used to be, he'd come in and talk to me in my office when he'd work out. Now, hardly ever. It's not the same Mike Tyson."

Tyson's estranged manager, Bill Cayton, wants Tyson to undergo a neurological exam before fighting again.

"If Mike will talk to me, I'll strongly recommend he have an extensive neurological checkup before he resumes training," he said.

"I place major importance on that. I believe he'll check out OK, but I want that done before he does anything."

Cayton also resumed his unloading on King.

"Don King has been a disaster for Mike Tyson," he said. "First he cost (Tyson) his credibility, then he cost him millions of dollars, now he's cost him the heavyweight championship.

"I never would have permitted Mike to face Buster Douglas, unless we were forced to through a mandatory defense. And under no circumstances would I have put that fight overseas. I knew when King made that fight it would be a tough fight for Mike."

Cayton said he didn't favor a June Tyson-Douglas rematch, as King did. It appears that Douglas will make his first defense against Evander Holyfield in September.

"I want Mike to have three fights between now and next February, against carefully selected opponents," Cayton said. "HBO still wants to televise Mike's fights and will pay him well. I think if we can get Mike back with us, into the disciplined program he was in before with us, he'll be fine."

After the one-round knockout of Michael Spinks in June of 1988, Tyson left his Cayton-Rooney-Baranski team and aligned himself with King, who to this day has no legal standing with Tyson. At the time, in a parting shot, Tyson called Cayton "Satan in disguise." Cayton's managerial contract with Tyson runs into 1992.

Said Cayton: "I'm not looking for any apologies. None of us are. I just want Mike to show up one day and say, 'Hi, I'm ready to go back to work.' "

In 1988, Tyson's gross income approached $50 million. In 1989, according to an Inside Sports magazine study, he earned $14 million.

King has rebutted Cayton's charges of mismanagement of Tyson.

On Wednesday and Thursday, repeated attempts to reach King for comment through his spokesman, John Solberg, were unsuccessful.

[Ambling Alp II]

By saying that he really isn't admitting anything. He is making an excuse. Lots of fighters have changes of trainers and every fighter has issues outside of the ring.

Firstly, I was never a Tyson fan, I was Holyfield through and through, so I'm not some fanboy getting an erection whenever I watch Tyson vs Reggie Gross.

I remember before the Douglas fight, that in the build up, there were plenty of stories in the media that Tyson hadn't been training properly. It was mentioned in the pre-fight broadcast in the UK and that his mind wasn't on the job. He also got knocked down in sparring by Greg Page. From those rumours and facts, I think it's as clear as day, that Tyson wasn't in peak condition, physically or mentally.

Do you disagree?

I agree, it wasn't his best fight. That is his own fault. Same with Bowe vs Golota. You have to throw out the :dog ate my homework excuses" when rating fighters as well as what would have had happened head to head. Otherwise you can do that with anyone.
One thing we learned from that a fight is that tyson was fighting a guy with a good jab who wasn't a fraid of him, that fighter had a good chance vs Tyson.

A lot of different things could have happened if Bowe-Tyson would have occurred. Take each fighter's worst fight and it's easy to imagine him losing. Take his best fight and it's easy to imagine him winning. Tyson had obvious advantages(Power, handspeed) Bowe was better inside, was the more accurrate puncher, and could handle adversity better.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Just a link to clarify things:
http://articles.latimes.com/1990-02-23/ ... mike-tyson

Ex-Associates Wonder if Tyson Has Lost It : Boxing: Former champion reportedly had terrible training sessions before Douglas fight.
February 23, 1990|EARL GUSTKEY | TIMES STAFF WRITER

Matt Baranski and Johnny Tocco, veteran boxing trainers who have worked extensively with former heavyweight champion Mike Tyson, are wondering if Tyson will ever be the same after the beating he absorbed from Buster Douglas in Tokyo.

Before Tyson fired him and trainer Kevin Rooney in 1988, Baranski had worked as the cut man in Tyson's corner for 35 fights.

Baranski, who lives in Selkirk, N.Y., said Thursday that he had visited Tyson for an hour recently in nearby Catskill, N.Y., where Tyson lives, and found the former champion unwilling to even talk about the Douglas fight.

"He said he'd be back, that he'd get his title back, but that was about it," Baranski said. "He didn't want to talk about the fight. All he told me was, 'I'll be back.'

"When I asked him if he was interested in getting back with Kevin and me, the old team, he just kind of shrugged his shoulders.

"Right now, I think it's a case of pride . . . he doesn't want to swallow his pride.

"He took a beating, and he knows it. Mike has a lot to think about. I don't think Mike can be a better fighter than he was, not after this fight. But I think he'll beat Buster the next time. "People don't realize it, but Mike has taken a lot of shots in the gym. I didn't see him train for Douglas, but I've heard he looked really bad in sparring. I heard Trevor Berbick gave him a hard time in sparring and if that's true, then Mike is really gone.

"The ninth-round punches Mike took from Douglas hurt him more than the ones in the 10th that took him out."

Tocco, the 79-year-old trainer and owner of the Ringside Gym in Las Vegas, said much the same of Tyson, who trained at his gym for two weeks before leaving for Japan in mid-January.

"It was the worst I've seen him," Tocco said. "He was not in condition when he left here.

"He was having a rough time with Greg Page, he could do nothing with Trevor Berbick and even Oliver McCall gave him a bad time one day. Page hadn't looked that good against anyone in years.

"To me, (Tyson) isn't the same (as) when the other people had him. He's too protected now. When Bill Cayton and Kevin Rooney had him, they'd walk in the gym, say hello to everybody, and work out with everyone else who was here.

"Now, (promoter Don) King's people walked in here the first day and ordered everyone out of the gym. I said, 'Hold it, I own this gym, not Don King. These guys stay.'

"Mike's problem is Don King, period. Here's a kid off the streets, a multimillionaire, a pretty bright kid actually. I give him a lot of credit for what he's done in a short time.

"But he's changed so much with King managing him. He doesn't have to make decisions for himself anymore. Used to be, he'd come in and talk to me in my office when he'd work out. Now, hardly ever. It's not the same Mike Tyson."

Tyson's estranged manager, Bill Cayton, wants Tyson to undergo a neurological exam before fighting again.

"If Mike will talk to me, I'll strongly recommend he have an extensive neurological checkup before he resumes training," he said.

"I place major importance on that. I believe he'll check out OK, but I want that done before he does anything."

Cayton also resumed his unloading on King.

"Don King has been a disaster for Mike Tyson," he said. "First he cost (Tyson) his credibility, then he cost him millions of dollars, now he's cost him the heavyweight championship.

"I never would have permitted Mike to face Buster Douglas, unless we were forced to through a mandatory defense. And under no circumstances would I have put that fight overseas. I knew when King made that fight it would be a tough fight for Mike."

Cayton said he didn't favor a June Tyson-Douglas rematch, as King did. It appears that Douglas will make his first defense against Evander Holyfield in September.

"I want Mike to have three fights between now and next February, against carefully selected opponents," Cayton said. "HBO still wants to televise Mike's fights and will pay him well. I think if we can get Mike back with us, into the disciplined program he was in before with us, he'll be fine."

After the one-round knockout of Michael Spinks in June of 1988, Tyson left his Cayton-Rooney-Baranski team and aligned himself with King, who to this day has no legal standing with Tyson. At the time, in a parting shot, Tyson called Cayton "Satan in disguise." Cayton's managerial contract with Tyson runs into 1992.

Said Cayton: "I'm not looking for any apologies. None of us are. I just want Mike to show up one day and say, 'Hi, I'm ready to go back to work.' "

In 1988, Tyson's gross income approached $50 million. In 1989, according to an Inside Sports magazine study, he earned $14 million.

King has rebutted Cayton's charges of mismanagement of Tyson.

On Wednesday and Thursday, repeated attempts to reach King for comment through his spokesman, John Solberg, were unsuccessful.

Yup, after the fight.

[keithmoonhangover]

Just a link to clarify things:
http://articles.latimes.com/1990-02-23/ ... mike-tyson

Ex-Associates Wonder if Tyson Has Lost It : Boxing: Former champion reportedly had terrible training sessions before Douglas fight.
February 23, 1990|EARL GUSTKEY | TIMES STAFF WRITER

Matt Baranski and Johnny Tocco, veteran boxing trainers who have worked extensively with former heavyweight champion Mike Tyson, are wondering if Tyson will ever be the same after the beating he absorbed from Buster Douglas in Tokyo.

Before Tyson fired him and trainer Kevin Rooney in 1988, Baranski had worked as the cut man in Tyson's corner for 35 fights.

Baranski, who lives in Selkirk, N.Y., said Thursday that he had visited Tyson for an hour recently in nearby Catskill, N.Y., where Tyson lives, and found the former champion unwilling to even talk about the Douglas fight.

"He said he'd be back, that he'd get his title back, but that was about it," Baranski said. "He didn't want to talk about the fight. All he told me was, 'I'll be back.'

"When I asked him if he was interested in getting back with Kevin and me, the old team, he just kind of shrugged his shoulders.

"Right now, I think it's a case of pride . . . he doesn't want to swallow his pride.

"He took a beating, and he knows it. Mike has a lot to think about. I don't think Mike can be a better fighter than he was, not after this fight. But I think he'll beat Buster the next time. "People don't realize it, but Mike has taken a lot of shots in the gym. I didn't see him train for Douglas, but I've heard he looked really bad in sparring. I heard Trevor Berbick gave him a hard time in sparring and if that's true, then Mike is really gone.

"The ninth-round punches Mike took from Douglas hurt him more than the ones in the 10th that took him out."

Tocco, the 79-year-old trainer and owner of the Ringside Gym in Las Vegas, said much the same of Tyson, who trained at his gym for two weeks before leaving for Japan in mid-January.

"It was the worst I've seen him," Tocco said. "He was not in condition when he left here.

"He was having a rough time with Greg Page, he could do nothing with Trevor Berbick and even Oliver McCall gave him a bad time one day. Page hadn't looked that good against anyone in years.

"To me, (Tyson) isn't the same (as) when the other people had him. He's too protected now. When Bill Cayton and Kevin Rooney had him, they'd walk in the gym, say hello to everybody, and work out with everyone else who was here.

"Now, (promoter Don) King's people walked in here the first day and ordered everyone out of the gym. I said, 'Hold it, I own this gym, not Don King. These guys stay.'

"Mike's problem is Don King, period. Here's a kid off the streets, a multimillionaire, a pretty bright kid actually. I give him a lot of credit for what he's done in a short time.

"But he's changed so much with King managing him. He doesn't have to make decisions for himself anymore. Used to be, he'd come in and talk to me in my office when he'd work out. Now, hardly ever. It's not the same Mike Tyson."

Tyson's estranged manager, Bill Cayton, wants Tyson to undergo a neurological exam before fighting again.

"If Mike will talk to me, I'll strongly recommend he have an extensive neurological checkup before he resumes training," he said.

"I place major importance on that. I believe he'll check out OK, but I want that done before he does anything."

Cayton also resumed his unloading on King.

"Don King has been a disaster for Mike Tyson," he said. "First he cost (Tyson) his credibility, then he cost him millions of dollars, now he's cost him the heavyweight championship.

"I never would have permitted Mike to face Buster Douglas, unless we were forced to through a mandatory defense. And under no circumstances would I have put that fight overseas. I knew when King made that fight it would be a tough fight for Mike."

Cayton said he didn't favor a June Tyson-Douglas rematch, as King did. It appears that Douglas will make his first defense against Evander Holyfield in September.

"I want Mike to have three fights between now and next February, against carefully selected opponents," Cayton said. "HBO still wants to televise Mike's fights and will pay him well. I think if we can get Mike back with us, into the disciplined program he was in before with us, he'll be fine."

After the one-round knockout of Michael Spinks in June of 1988, Tyson left his Cayton-Rooney-Baranski team and aligned himself with King, who to this day has no legal standing with Tyson. At the time, in a parting shot, Tyson called Cayton "Satan in disguise." Cayton's managerial contract with Tyson runs into 1992.

Said Cayton: "I'm not looking for any apologies. None of us are. I just want Mike to show up one day and say, 'Hi, I'm ready to go back to work.' "

In 1988, Tyson's gross income approached $50 million. In 1989, according to an Inside Sports magazine study, he earned $14 million.

King has rebutted Cayton's charges of mismanagement of Tyson.

On Wednesday and Thursday, repeated attempts to reach King for comment through his spokesman, John Solberg, were unsuccessful.

Yup, after the fight.

There was loads about it before the fight. It was discussed on Sky Sports before the fight.

[keithmoonhangover]

By saying that he really isn't admitting anything. He is making an excuse. Lots of fighters have changes of trainers and every fighter has issues outside of the ring.

Firstly, I was never a Tyson fan, I was Holyfield through and through, so I'm not some fanboy getting an erection whenever I watch Tyson vs Reggie Gross.

I remember before the Douglas fight, that in the build up, there were plenty of stories in the media that Tyson hadn't been training properly. It was mentioned in the pre-fight broadcast in the UK and that his mind wasn't on the job. He also got knocked down in sparring by Greg Page. From those rumours and facts, I think it's as clear as day, that Tyson wasn't in peak condition, physically or mentally.

Do you disagree?

Buster Douglass had just as much trouble pre fight that could harm him mentally. All you're saying to me is that Tyson is weak mentally, and I already knew that. Any dip in physical condition is down to him, I'm not sure why you think that proves something.

I'm just saying that Tyson wasn't at his peak for Douglas.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Yup, after the fight.

There was loads about it before the fight. It was discussed on Sky Sports before the fight.

There was nothing over here, just a lamb being led to an inevitable slaughter. Though there was talk of where Buster's head would be at due to his mother.

[Ezzard]

Keith, I think he was at his peak. Maybe he chose not to train properly. But it wasn't like say Holmes who couldn't be 10 years younger no matter how focused he was.