Were the old timers fitter than todays fighters?

[keithmoonhangover]

Now that is laughable. Keeping a steady pace for twenty, forty, etc. rounds is measurable.

Show me how it's measurable. Show me how you can prove to me that Carl Froch's stamina is any better or worse than LaMotta. Or how Andre Ward couldn't fight for as long as Stanley Ketchel. Or how Wladimir Klitschko isn't as fit as Jess Willard. The simple answer is... you can't.

[HomicideHenry]

Now that is laughable. Keeping a steady pace for twenty, forty, etc. rounds is measurable.

Show me how it's measurable. Show me how you can prove to me that Carl Froch's stamina is any better or worse than LaMotta. Or how Andre Ward couldn't fight for as long as Stanley Ketchel. Or how Wladimir Klitschko isn't as fit as Jess Willard. The simple answer is... you can't.

Sure you can, by a number of factors. It would take some doing, cus there's alot of data to go through, but here's the criteria to follow:

Work Rate (Scheduling)- How often do they fight
Work Rate (In The Ring)- Punch Totals
Win/Loss Ratio (Total)
Consistency In The Ring- Do the win/losses translate to greatness*

*Are the wins/losses against a consistant group of opposition (top tier, journeyman, etc)

Performance altogether equals fitness. Take Marciano for example, whether you love him or hate him, you have to acknowledge that his punch volume went UP as the rounds went on. That is fitness. Someone who starts off strong, and the totals in accuracy and all around volume start to dissipate its comes down to fitness.

[dempseyfire]

By and large one can see from film that fighters in older, deeper eras could maintain higher work-rates over longer stretches of a fight than guys today, especially in the higher weight divisions. That's about as measurable as it needs to get.

The lone advantage I see with 'modern' training methods (since boxing conditioning methods by and large are the same as they were 70 years ago, but lots of old things are just getting newly packaged) is that greater knowledge of the aging body enables older fighters to train and eat more suited to how an athlete in their late 30s should train/eat more than the older fighters did 50 years ago. This combined with decreases in the talent pool (and I believe the latter reason is more paramount than the former) has enabled many more fighters in their late 30s/early 40s to stay at elite status than guys did in previous eras.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I think PED's is the greatest advantage that modern athletes have.

[Datsue]

Today's dieting is used to cut unhealthy amounts of weight for a competitive advantage more than it is for health.

I'm still reading through the thread but I agree with this so fvcking much I had to stop & quote it in case something else made me go off on one & I forgot about it.

Fvcking brilliant insight, mate.

EDIT:

I've never understood why they changed the same day weigh ins. Its ridiculous the size of these guys partucularly in mma after a day or so of buliking back up. We've already seen mismatch beatings as a result. The old way seemed fine.

& for exactly the reasons I mentioned above, this, too, is spot-on. & the answers as to why this has occurred are (like everything in boxing) commercially-driven yet clothed in something else (in this case a kind of knee-jerk reaction to the high-profile near-deaths of the 90s: people were dying because they'd try to cut fornicate-stupid amounts of weight. Boxing's answer? Stop them dieting like fuckwits & sawing off limbs so they could get a competitive advantage over a smaller guy? No! Move the fvcking weigh-in, so they can do that & not kill themselves! You couldn't make it the fvck up, really...).

Which leads me onto...

Yes it is I'm sure. The last time I fought was 89. Same day weigh in. Like ten in the morning or so. What year did it change? Is it worldwide for every card now? I dunno

I honestly can't remember.

In Britain, after the Eubank-Watson rematch & the Benn-Mcllellan fights.

I think it followed suit in the states soon after.


Phew. All that, & I got through it without screaming out "DINAMITA!!!!!" once.

Oh, fvck it...

EDIT II, The Sequel:

I think today's guys are more like sprinters... 12 rounds... Guys pre 1990s seemed more built for endurance.

Missed this. Yes. Totally. Physical strength I think they've got the edge today. But work-rate & gas? Yesteryear. Easy.

[Expug]

I can remember struggling badly to make weight before a fight and spending an afternoon in The Russian bathouse steam on Division st in Chicago in 1983. What a nightmare. Anyway,was it one of those day before weigh ins that played a part in Arturo Gatti nearly killing Joey Gamache? He came in so much bigger and Gamache was severely injured. Maybe I got it wrong.

[scallum]

In my humble opinion the fighters of old were in much better condition. I'm not even sure if guys like Greb were humans? I can't comprehend fighters fight so many times. They had to.be in.horrific constant pain from fighting. so.often

[orbtastic]

I've never understood why they changed the same day weigh ins. Its ridiculous the size of these guys partucularly in mma after a day or so of buliking back up. We've already seen mismatch beatings as a result. The old way seemed fine.

Ironically enough, I'll bet they changed it to try and prevent fights from getting scrapped because of fighters missing weight. Either that or to try and make it a promotional event the day before. Either way, it's here to say.

Yes it is I'm sure. The last time I fought was 89. Same day weigh in. Like ten in the morning or so. What year did it change? Is it worldwide for every card now? I dunno

It was changed after there was a clear pattern between life threatening injuries due to dehydration in the lower weights (almost never happened at cruiser or heavy, there was one case in a British ring at cruiserweight but [making the] weight wasn't the issue). Dehydration obviously depletes the level of fluid in the body but also, more crucially, reduces the amount of fluid around the brain and spinal cord which protects the brain less under trauma. The other risk is being "tired" late in a fight, which is often where a lot of these injuries occurred and one of the reasons that 15 rounders were reduced to 12 after a couple of high profile live TV deaths and serious beatings in the ring (although some cynics would say that it was easier to fit them into TV schedules).

I think it was changed in the mid 90s, from memory.

[orbtastic]

I can remember struggling badly to make weight before a fight and spending an afternoon in The Russian bathouse steam on Division st in Chicago in 1983. What a nightmare. Anyway,was it one of those day before weigh ins that played a part in Arturo Gatti nearly killing Joey Gamache? He came in so much bigger and Gamache was severely injured. Maybe I got it wrong.

Gatti and McClellan were two that benefited from 24 hour weigh-ins. Both of them were rumoured to be regaining around 20 and 40lbs respectively. That led to the change in rules where fighters are not supposed to regain more than 10lbs or 10% after the weigh-in?

They are talking about bring back same day weigh-ins again, bizarrely.

[orbtastic]

(proof that benn/mclellan weigh-in was the day before)

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/mccl ... 74846.html

"Official weights announced at weigh-in at Britannia International Hotel, Docklands, yesterday."

[Datsue]

(proof that benn/mclellan weigh-in was the day before)

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/mccl ... 74846.html

"Official weights announced at weigh-in at Britannia International Hotel, Docklands, yesterday."

Ah, sorry. Must've been straight after the Eubank-Watson rematch, then...

[orbtastic]

Sounds about right.

I'm sure that McClellan was weighing in the day before in his fights with Jackson, too. Given he was keen to move up to 168 after the rematch you just know he was REALLY struggling to make 160. There is an interview prior to their second fight that I have, where Jackson talks about his weight etc.

My memory's fairly good but I can't actually remember exactly when the change was made.

[Bricks]

Were the old timers fitter. Why do you think several old time fighters could have well over 100+/200+ fights, fight on a much more regular basis and often go 15 rounds? Thinking about SRR, Archie Moore, Willie Pep, Ted Kid Lewis, Harry Greb, Benny Leonard etc...etc..

Today its unusual for top fighters to get anywhere near 100 fights and most fight nowhere as often and of course the 15 round fights are finished.

I can see how the old timers were any fitter and food and conditioning today must be better than it was then yet they would be involved in wars far more, the refs would often let fights go on far longer than today even when the fighters were getting battered all around the ring and dropped several times.

Whats the reason do you think? Are todays fighters so fit they burn out quicker? Is it purely something as simple as money is so good these days that they don't need to fight often, and could have hundreds of fights if they wanted to but just decide not too?

When you read some of the resumes of the old fighters it puts the modern bunch to shame.

Physical fitness does not have that much to do with it...in terms of the boxing world in this sport which has always been about toughness....those men of yesteryear came from a harsher less hospitable environment....overall for sure,they were better conditioned in terms of pure fitness (especially the HW division) but they were generally tougher , and tuned in to fighting more rounds, having more fights per year, starting pro careers earlier. There were not the tempting foods of today, food was perhaps more homegrown organic in the 50s for example.

Obviously today fighters have access to a lot of sports nutrition but a lot of that is all baloney. Gatorade and lucozade are not going to replenish water levels and thirst quicker than water and tea the old timers drank after training. protein shakes are not neccesarily going to do more than eggs in repairing muscle in fact protein shakes are what have led to the bulkier shapes of today which no matter what this army of turd personal fitness experts and nutritionists say DO hinder punch speed and speed of body ie excess muscle mass causes tightning and lack of reflex in motion and defence.

[Uppercut1]

They just don't make 'em like they used to.