Khan vs Garcia 2, What Happens?

[Matt W]

People say that the Tyson that beat Spinks could beat anyone but you could say that about the Douglas that beat Tyson or the Bowe that beat Holyfield.

Tyson achieved more than Douglas, but for all the excuses made for Tyson the Douglas of that night may well have beaten any Tyson. Douglas didn't exactly have the perfect build-up to the fight himself.

[crusader]

Crusader IMO Garcia will never out box khan over 12, danny was obviously getting outboxed before he caught khan flush, it was a good punch and no supprise that khans legs didn't hold out, but if the rematch happens and khan wins ud it tells me Garcia can only win by ko, so if the next one is a khan win by ud it tells me that Garcia got lucky.

I agree that Garcia's most probable method of victory is stoppage, but why does that suggest that he needs luck to win? Being lucky means that success was reached through chance; I think it's incorrect to suggest that Garcia won due to chance (see my first post), and even if he loses a rematch he may hurt Khan again, and if they have a third fight he may beat Khan again or have success in defeat. In those cases, I still wouldn't consider Garcia's first win to be a result of luck, even though Khan triumphed in a rematch.

Perhaps Khan would be lucky to outbox Garcia for 12 rounds without being caught as he was in the first bout.

But if khan outboxed him in the next 3 fights would you then admit Garcia got lucky in the first ?

It depends on how each fighter performs. If Khan fought as he did in their first bout, rushing in with rapid but wild attacks that leave him open, and Garcia fought as he did in the first bout, it would seem more likely than it does now that Garcia's victory was improbable; perhaps the first result could then be considered anomalous. However, Garcia won the first bout by consciously timing Khan's attacks, so it would still be that the interactions leading to Garcia's win were not accidental, unplanned, and random, as one would expect them to have been if the win was simply a matter of luck.

You've stated that if Khan wins the rematch it will suggest that Garcia was lucky in the first bout, but why doesn't it suggest that Khan was lucky to outbox Garcia for 12 rounds in the rematch?

[sharpei_louis]

The bottom line with this thread is that the probability of Khan seeing out the rest of his career without taking a heavy shot is minimal.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I really think Garcia is overrated and riding the Amir Khan KO wave. It's all about confidence with these two fighters right now. Garcia got schooled by Morales in the first fight in parts and after the Khan KO, he is on top of the world. I think we'd all agree that Garcia is not a technically great fighter and looks raggy at times.

Right now, Garcia is dangerous and I'd expect him to dispose of Judah in similar fashion to that of both Khan and Morales II but in saying that, Garcia could find he can't get Zab out of there so easy, forcing him to doubt himself. Going to be an interesting fight.

If I was managing Khan, I'd avoid Garcia right now. Don't put Amir back into that place right now until he's built his confidence back up again. Would the Khan that beat Maidana beat Garcia? If he'd just held back after the first knockdown to Garcia, he may of held on to win the first fight. I think Khan's chin isn't that bad, he just built himself up in his own head to be unbeatable and thought he could engage with anyone, similar to how Garcia will be feeling now. I really don't think Danny Garcia is anything special and will get found out eventually.

Also, did anyone notice how much bling Garcia had on during the Khan-Molina fight? Serious shit.

Fact is, Khan doesn't hold a powerful shot at all well, and doesn't really have world class power. He has speed, and athletic skills, but he is neither disciplined or calm under pressure, and he lacks the intelligence to think on the fly and work out how to win.

In another era, he would have been a european champ, in fact, it's dubious whether he would even have been that, as the european title used to be a big deal back in the day and there were loads of good Europeans around his weight.

Khan will probably be a belt holder again, but he just doesn't have what it takes to dominate. The likes of Mayweather, Marquez or Barrera - would have absolutely destroyed him.

I still think Barrera could have beaten him if he hadn't got cut, he wobbled Khan with a jab, and Amir's shots had little or no effect, had he been allowed to continue, which he should have been as the cut was not any worse than it had been at the time it happened, I think he would have gotten to Khan sooner or later, and stopped him. Even 70% of Barrera is more than 100% of Khan on his best night.

He's a good fighter, maybe very good, but nowhere near great, and never will be. A porous chin just cannot cut it at world level.

[ta596]

Khan can outbox Garcia, if he does not get to excited.

[winkveron]

Jessi, I doubt anyone will try to argue that Douglas is better than Tyson. We all know what Tyson achieved. But they fought once and Douglas KO'd him, end of story. We can say Tyson WOULD have avenged the defeat but he didn't.

Khan was beaten by a very good fighter who has a good punch in his arsenal. Why is a good punch less desirable than fast hands or good movement? Like I said, IF Khan beats him convincingly then we can say that he is better but the fact of the matter is that as things stand Garcia can rightly feel like he has his number. It's down to Khan to reverse that. But I think you need to show Garcia some respect. He's not just some journeyman bum who got lucky with a punch.

[MecnunK]

Not a journeyman bum but also not the master planner and conscious timer of Khan.. Lucky punch because he was really trying to hit Khan's neck wasn't he with his head and face turned 90 degrees away? He was swinging and hoping and there is nothing wrong with that if your opponent is faster than you and beating you to the punch.

[Monte Fisto]

I see a similar fight to khan vs maidana. Whilst i will hope khan holds on to a points decision with his clearly better skills, it can also end in heart beat with Khan seeing stars.

If i have to make a prediction today, im thinking khan on points in a split decision.

[jameswilson]

I think Virgil Hill would work out a gameplan to nullify Garcia's left hook and Khan would work to a clear UD. I think Garcia would be way too left hook happy in the rematch.

[crusader]

Not a journeyman bum but also not the master planner and conscious timer of Khan.. Lucky punch because he was really trying to hit Khan's neck wasn't he with his head and face turned 90 degrees away? He was swinging and hoping and there is nothing wrong with that if your opponent is faster than you and beating you to the punch.

Why is looking at a target as you hit it a precondition for planning to hit it? That suggests that to consciously time an opponent one must position himself in a specific manner after the timing has occured, which is absurd. When one puts their weight into a left hook, they naturally rotate away from their target; if they don't the product will be an arm punch with reduced force.

[MecnunK]

Not a journeyman bum but also not the master planner and conscious timer of Khan.. Lucky punch because he was really trying to hit Khan's neck wasn't he with his head and face turned 90 degrees away? He was swinging and hoping and there is nothing wrong with that if your opponent is faster than you and beating you to the punch.

Why is looking at a target as you hit it a precondition for planning to hit it? That suggests that consciously timing an opponent requires one to position their body in a specific manner after the timing has occured, which is absurd. When one puts their weight into a left hook, they naturally rotate away from their target; if they don't the product will be an arm punch with reduced force.

I don't doubt his planning to hit Khan with his best punch but yes consciously timing something/anything requires a certain specific body position unique to oneself before not after the strike. Throwing when you get the inkling that someone is close and managing to knock them out by landing on their neck constitutes a certain degree of luck unless you are Yoda. The point about him not watching where he was landing or throwing was apt because he wasn't "consciously timing anything". Even before the punch was delivered his head was facing the floor. He had aspirations to time and kept throwing wild left hooks hoping one would stick and it worked out for him. Good luck to the guy.

I agree about body pivoting into the punch but when your head is facing the floor when you start the swing and turns 90 degrees away, hitting never mind knocking out someone implies a bit of luck wouldn't you agree? See pacman's knock out punch that hit Hatton, that's conscious timing, note the body positions. Similarly Pacman got timed perfectly by Marquez.

[loaded_gloves]

People criticising Garcia for 'where his head was positioned' when he unleashed the fight-turning left hook should invest in a pair of gloves and try boxing at their local gym themselves. You have a tendency to dip your head, look away, close eyes when fists are raining in on your face - to execute a knockout counter under that fire is exceptional.

If anything it makes me respect Danny Garcia even more.

Again - get some gloves and go try it. Doesn't tickle in there.

[banjo]

I think Virgil Hill would work out a gameplan to nullify Garcia's left hook and Khan would work to a clear UD. I think Garcia would be way too left hook happy in the rematch.

Virgil Hunter

[crusader]

Not a journeyman bum but also not the master planner and conscious timer of Khan.. Lucky punch because he was really trying to hit Khan's neck wasn't he with his head and face turned 90 degrees away? He was swinging and hoping and there is nothing wrong with that if your opponent is faster than you and beating you to the punch.

Why is looking at a target as you hit it a precondition for planning to hit it? That suggests that consciously timing an opponent requires one to position their body in a specific manner after the timing has occured, which is absurd. When one puts their weight into a left hook, they naturally rotate away from their target; if they don't the product will be an arm punch with reduced force.

I don't doubt his planning to hit Khan with his best punch but yes consciously timing something/anything requires a certain specific body position unique to oneself before not after the strike. Throwing when you get the inkling that someone is close and managing to knock them out by landing on their neck constitutes a certain degree of luck unless you are Yoda. The point about him not watching where he was landing or throwing was apt because he wasn't "consciously timing anything". Even before the punch was delivered his head was facing the floor. He had aspirations to time and kept throwing wild left hooks hoping one would stick and it worked out for him. Good luck to the guy.

Can you explain why consciously timing someone requires eye contact as one lands and specific positioning--beyond that required to note an opponent's attack--before one lands?

Consciously timing someone is fundamentally an act of thought, not of action. I consciously timed my opponent if I discerned when and from where they were attacking, and then used this information in determing my immediate counter attack. The replay shows that Garcia was looking at Khan as the latter first attacked, enabling him to discern everything needed to time his opponent in this manner. It's immaterial that Garcia's head was down as he threw the punch and that he was turned away when he landed; those movements come after one discerns an opportunity to hit an opponent, and discerning that opportunity is the basis for saying that one consciously timed their opponent. If Garcia was lucky, the left hook would've been accidental and unplanned, which isn't the case.

I agree about body pivoting into the punch but when your head is facing the floor when you start the swing and turns 90 degrees away, hitting never mind knocking out someone implies a bit of luck wouldn't you agree?

You're still suggesting that an action that occurs after consciously timing an opponent determines whether an act was consciously timed. Garcia likely threw the punch at that moment because of something he discerned immediately before; he was looking at Khan as the latter initiated his attack, and threw the left hook only after Khan opened up. It's also possible, however, to note that an opponent is throwing a punch from a certain distance when your head is down, so I don't think that Garcia's head position suggests that the punch must have been lucky and thrown in desperation.

When throwing a good left hook one naturally rotates as Garcia did, so that doesn't bear on the specific reasons why the punch was thrown.

[crusader]

People criticising Garcia for 'where his head was positioned' when he unleashed the fight-turning left hook should invest in a pair of gloves and try boxing at their local gym themselves. You have a tendency to dip your head, look away, close eyes when fists are raining in on your face - to execute a knockout counter under that fire is exceptional.

I agree. That's how a good left hook is thrown in that situation.

[jameswilson]

I think Virgil Hill would work out a gameplan to nullify Garcia's left hook and Khan would work to a clear UD. I think Garcia would be way too left hook happy in the rematch.

Virgil Hunter

Why can't I stop mixing their names up.

[MecnunK]

Can you explain why consciously timing someone requires eye contact as one lands and specific positioning--beyond that required to note an opponent's attack--before one lands?

I didn't say anywhere it requires eye contact? It does however require you to know where the opponent is and that is commonly achieved through using your eyes.

Consciously timing someone is fundamentally an act of thought, not of action. I consciously timed my opponent if I discerned when and from where they were attacking, and then used this information in determinig my immediate counter attack. The replay shows that Garcia was looking at Khan as the latter first attacked, enabling him to discern everything needed to time his opponent in this manner. It's immaterial that Garcia's head was down as he threw the punch and that he was turned away when he landed; those movements come after one discerns an opportunity to hit an opponent, and discerning that opportunity is the basis for saying that one consciously timed their opponent. If Garcia was lucky, the left hook would've been accidental and unplanned, which isn't the case.

Thought and action are pretty much intertwined whether at conscious or subconscious level. Agree with how conscious timing works in the next sentence but that's not what Garcia was doing. he was throwing and hoping and actually managed to connect one albeit on neck.. Is that what he was consciously targeting?. It's Garcia we are talking about, an average boxer with good power not Mayweather. My point was when he started the punch his head was down and he couldn't see the opponent therefore he couldn't know definitely where Khan's head was.. he guessed and he swung, khan happened to stay there instead of moving back and hence it was a lucky punch. You can argue that Garcia is a way better boxer than I think and did everything consciously and planned whereas my argument is that Garcia isn't that good and threw a bunch of wild shots hoping one will land, that one landed is chance.

You're still suggesting that an action that occurs after consciously timing an opponent determines whether an act was consciously timed. Garcia likely threw the punch at that moment because of something he discerned immediately before; he was looking at Khan as the latter initiated his attack, and threw the left hook only after Khan opened up. It's also possible, however, to note that an opponent is throwing a punch from a certain distance when your head is down, so I don't think that Garcia's head position suggests that the punch must have been lucky and thrown in desperation.
When throwing a good left hook one naturally rotates as Garcia did, so that doesn't bear on the specific reasons why the punch was thrown.

No I am suggesting that from start to finish Garcia didn't really know where Khan's head was and was throwing wildly and I determine this through his body actions and my perception of his skills.He isn't actually that good to be able to time without looking to see where he is hitting from what I have seen of him.

You are assuming that Garcia discerned an opportunity before Khan's attack or during it , it simply could have been a reactionary thing after getting hit to throw a punch and he landed. My view is he obviously had a plan to throw left hooks at Khan and hope one comes good and that's what happened but as far as the KO punch is concerned it looks like a lucky punch based on how he delivered it and where it landed. Either way it's unlikely we are going to agree on Garcia's skill set and his left hook so cheers. Have a good one.

[jimcook]

i think all this talk about head positioning and lucky punches is overly complicated. before going into the fight garcia, like everyone else , knew khan was vulnerable defensively. even apart from any other plan or tactics they went over before the fight , im sure the garcias were planning a left hook festival. if there is a rematch, they will still be throwing it ,waiting for khan to walk onto it. but they wont be dumb enough to expect him to do it again, and im sure they will be setting other traps that khan will blunder into at some stage of the fight. he simply doesnt have the ring smarts to compliment his athletic ability.

[dan28uk]

could go either way khans the better boxer but not fighter he just doesnt have the chin IF he could stay out of harms way and boxes could take a comfortable ud but in a khan fight how often does he not get hit. fight ends in two ways either khan decision or garcia ko.

[MecnunK]

i think all this talk about head positioning and lucky punches is overly complicated. before going into the fight garcia, like everyone else , knew khan was vulnerable defensively. even apart from any other plan or tactics they went over before the fight , im sure the garcias were planning a left hook festival. if there is a rematch, they will still be throwing it ,waiting for khan to walk onto it. but they wont be dumb enough to expect him to do it again, and im sure they will be setting other traps that khan will blunder into at some stage of the fight. he simply doesnt have the ring smarts to compliment his athletic ability.

Yeah agreed and also on Khan's ring IQ. Its shockingly bad. When things go his way he looks really good with his speed and combinations especially jab but as soon as he counters resistance he gets confused because he doesnt know any other way or at least it appears that way. I doubt any trainer can change that though given he has to fight on the world stage with decent opponents. Its not just about going from plan A to plan B which I am sure he can grasp but adjusting to your opponents tactics and situation...

[jamesmcdonnell]

i think all this talk about head positioning and lucky punches is overly complicated. before going into the fight garcia, like everyone else , knew khan was vulnerable defensively. even apart from any other plan or tactics they went over before the fight , im sure the garcias were planning a left hook festival. if there is a rematch, they will still be throwing it ,waiting for khan to walk onto it. but they wont be dumb enough to expect him to do it again, and im sure they will be setting other traps that khan will blunder into at some stage of the fight. he simply doesnt have the ring smarts to compliment his athletic ability.

Yeah agreed and also on Khan's ring IQ. Its shockingly bad. When things go his way he looks really good with his speed and combinations especially jab but as soon as he counters resistance he gets confused because he doesnt know any other way or at least it appears that way. I doubt any trainer can change that though given he has to fight on the world stage with decent opponents. Its not just about going from plan A to plan B which I am sure he can grasp but adjusting to your opponents tactics and situation...

The fact is, he's as thick as elephant shite in and outside the ring. Short of a brain transplant, there isn't a trainer born of woman that can change that.

[crusader]

We'll have to agree to disagree, because I still don't believe that Garcia was lucky, as I'll note below for a final time.

Thought and action are pretty much intertwined whether at conscious or subconscious level. Agree with how conscious timing works in the next sentence but that's not what Garcia was doing. he was throwing and hoping and actually managed to connect one albeit on neck.. Is that what he was consciously targeting?. It's Garcia we are talking about, an average boxer with good power not Mayweather. My point was when he started the punch his head was down and he couldn't see the opponent therefore he couldn't know definitely where Khan's head was.. he guessed and he swung, khan happened to stay there instead of moving back and hence it was a lucky punch. You can argue that Garcia is a way better boxer than I think and did everything consciously and planned whereas my argument is that Garcia isn't that good and threw a bunch of wild shots hoping one will land, that one landed is chance.

A consciously performed act requires thought, but such an act can occur without certain actions being performed. In this case, one can discern the information (thought) needed to time an opponent's attack without positioning themselves (action) in a specific way beyond that needed to satisfy the thought component. It's true that Garcia was 'throwing and hoping' to land a punch, but punches are usually thrown in the hope that they will land!

I'm not sure if Garcia is a better boxer, but one can be generally worse than their opponent, yet defeat them without luck.

No I am suggesting that from start to finish Garcia didn't really know where Khan's head was and was throwing wildly and I determine this through his body actions and my perception of his skills.He isn't actually that good to be able to time without looking to see where he is hitting from what I have seen of him.

You are assuming that Garcia discerned an opportunity before Khan's attack or during it , it simply could have been a reactionary thing after getting hit to throw a punch and he landed. My view is he obviously had a plan to throw left hooks at Khan and hope one comes good and that's what happened but as far as the KO punch is concerned it looks like a lucky punch based on how he delivered it and where it landed. Either way it's unlikely we are going to agree on Garcia's skill set and his left hook so cheers. Have a good one.

Garcia may have dropped his head when he threw the blow, but he was face to face with an attacking Khan immediately before, and correctly assuming that Khan's head would be in a similar location half a second later isn't something highly improbable that requires luck. Besides, no one can see the future, so even attacks that are unequivocally timed involve assumptions about where an opponent will be or how they will act more generally.

Luck is defined as success brought about by chance (i.e. the occurrence and development of events in the absence of any obvious design) rather than through one's own actions. You've conceded that Garcia planned to throw the punch and that he hoped for it to land, so I don't see how it can be a considered a lucky occurrence given the term's definition. Would Garcia have been lucky if he noted that Khan was acting in a certain way, and then, on the basis of that information, threw a combination that dropped Khan? If Garcia is lucky in this case, when isn't he lucky? If he isn't lucky in this case, what's the difference between the hypothetical scenario and the one that occurred in the bout?

As I noted above, one need not be a great thinker to have an accurate sense of where Khan's head would be in the interaction we're disucssing. Moreover, Garcia was looking at Khan as the latter started throwing a jab, and only then did Garcia start to throw the left hook. I therefore consider it highly probable that Garcia threw the left hook because Khan advanced and much less probable that Garcia threw the punch impetuously in desperation, without knowledge of the situation. The first case would constitute a planned, timed action, and therefore wouldn't be considered lucky as the term is defined.

I still don't understand how one can infer that the punch was lucky based on how far Garcia rotated his body or where the punch landed. What is the logical connection between those two factors and luck?

[jamesmcdonnell]

We'll have to agree to disagree, because I still don't believe that Garcia was lucky, as I'll note below for a final time.

Thought and action are pretty much intertwined whether at conscious or subconscious level. Agree with how conscious timing works in the next sentence but that's not what Garcia was doing. he was throwing and hoping and actually managed to connect one albeit on neck.. Is that what he was consciously targeting?. It's Garcia we are talking about, an average boxer with good power not Mayweather. My point was when he started the punch his head was down and he couldn't see the opponent therefore he couldn't know definitely where Khan's head was.. he guessed and he swung, khan happened to stay there instead of moving back and hence it was a lucky punch. You can argue that Garcia is a way better boxer than I think and did everything consciously and planned whereas my argument is that Garcia isn't that good and threw a bunch of wild shots hoping one will land, that one landed is chance.

A consciously performed act requires thought, but such an act can occur without certain actions being performed. In this case, one can discern the information (thought) needed to time an opponent's attack without positioning themselves (action) in a specific way beyond that needed to satisfy the thought component. It's true that Garcia was 'throwing and hoping' to land a punch, but punches are usually thrown in the hope that they will land!

I'm not sure if Garcia is a better boxer, but one can be generally worse than their opponent, yet defeat them without luck.

No I am suggesting that from start to finish Garcia didn't really know where Khan's head was and was throwing wildly and I determine this through his body actions and my perception of his skills.He isn't actually that good to be able to time without looking to see where he is hitting from what I have seen of him.

You are assuming that Garcia discerned an opportunity before Khan's attack or during it , it simply could have been a reactionary thing after getting hit to throw a punch and he landed. My view is he obviously had a plan to throw left hooks at Khan and hope one comes good and that's what happened but as far as the KO punch is concerned it looks like a lucky punch based on how he delivered it and where it landed. Either way it's unlikely we are going to agree on Garcia's skill set and his left hook so cheers. Have a good one.

Garcia may have dropped his head when he threw the blow, but he was face to face with an attacking Khan immediately before, and correctly assuming that Khan's head would be in a similar location half a second later isn't something highly improbable that requires luck. Besides, no one can see the future, so even attacks that are unequivocally timed involve assumptions about where an opponent will be or how they will act more generally.

Luck is defined as success brought about by chance (i.e. the occurrence and development of events in the absence of any obvious design) rather than through one's own actions. You've conceded that Garcia planned to throw the punch and that he hoped for it to land, so I don't see how it can be a considered a lucky occurrence given the term's definition. Would Garcia have been lucky if he noted that Khan was acting in a certain way, and then, on the basis of that information, threw a combination that dropped Khan? If Garcia is lucky in this case, when isn't he lucky? If he isn't lucky in this case, what's the difference between the hypothetical scenario and the one that occurred in the bout?

As I noted above, one need not be a great thinker to have an accurate sense of where Khan's head would be in the interaction we're disucssing. Moreover, Garcia was looking at Khan as the latter started throwing a jab, and only then did Garcia start to throw the left hook. I therefore consider it highly probable that Garcia threw the left hook because Khan advanced and much less probable that Garcia threw the punch impetuously in desperation, without knowledge of the situation. The first case would constitute a planned, timed action, and therefore wouldn't be considered lucky as the term is defined.

I still don't understand how one can infer that the punch was lucky based on how far Garcia rotated his body or where the punch landed. What is the logical connection between those two factors and luck?

It is quite common for a fighter to have his eyes shut at the moment of impact, albeit for split second in any case. Mean's little to me.

[revporl]

Having just watched Garcia/Morales 2, I think Garcia does Khan again the same way. That was a frightening left hook at the end. He is very strong, a monster puncher and only needs to connect once.