Ok, before I post my list just a few quick thoughts,
I have read and researched a fair bit, and put a lot of thought into this list. I have also decided to include Australian citizens born overseas, and also, with a lot of the older guys there is little to no footage to look at.
So here it is.
1. Jeff Fenech
2. Dave Sands
3. Lionel Rose
4. Vic Darchinyan
5. Kostya Tszyu
6. Les Darcy
7. Jimmy Carruthers
8. Young Griffo
9. Jeff Harding
10. Johnny Famechon
11. Ron Richards
12. Jack Carroll
13. Fred Henneberry
14. Tony Mundine
15. Hector Thompson
So there it is. I think the top ten is extremely hard to rank. I went with Fenech based on his achievements, although he only had 33 fights, the level of competition was pretty high. Some people would disagree with sands being so high, but his record if phenomenal, actually a lot of those old time guys have pretty amazing records, if for nothing more than the sheer amount of bouts, and the domestic competition was way, way stronger back than than it is now. A lot of lists I've seen have Darcy was higher, while I agree he was an exceptional fighter, I think a lot of people rank him on potential, he did beat some good fighters but sadly he was dead at 21, so no one will ever know what could have been. No footage exits of young Griffo, but form whatbive read hes life story sounds like some kind of Hollywood movie. And lastly, johnny Famechon also usually comes in higher, I think he is a little overrated to be honest, the fight were he won the world title (can't remember the opponents name ) was one of the worst decisions I have ever seen. Anyway, ld be interested to see other peoples opinions, if anyone here knows a bit about Australian boxing history
thunderfromdownunder wrote:Ok, before I post my list just a few quick thoughts,
I have read and researched a fair bit, and put a lot of thought into this list. I have also decided to include Australian citizens born overseas, and also, with a lot of the older guys there is little to no footage to look at.
So here it is.
1. Jeff Fenech
2. Dave Sands
3. Lionel Rose
4. Vic Darchinyan
5. Kostya Tszyu
6. Les Darcy
7. Jimmy Carruthers
8. Young Griffo
9. Jeff Harding
10. Johnny Famechon
11. Ron Richards
12. Jack Carroll
13. Fred Henneberry
14. Tony Mundine
15. Hector Thompson
So there it is. I think the top ten is extremely hard to rank. I went with Fenech based on his achievements, although he only had 33 fights, the level of competition was pretty high. Some people would disagree with sands being so high, but his record if phenomenal, actually a lot of those old time guys have pretty amazing records, if for nothing more than the sheer amount of bouts, and the domestic competition was way, way stronger back than than it is now. A lot of lists I've seen have Darcy was higher, while I agree he was an exceptional fighter, I think a lot of people rank him on potential, he did beat some good fighters but sadly he was dead at 21, so no one will ever know what could have been. No footage exits of young Griffo, but form whatbive read hes life story sounds like some kind of Hollywood movie. And lastly, johnny Famechon also usually comes in higher, I think he is a little overrated to be honest, the fight were he won the world title (can't remember the opponents name ) was one of the worst decisions I have ever seen. Anyway, ld be interested to see other peoples opinions, if anyone here knows a bit about Australian boxing history
Nice job Certainly didnt give yourself an easy task, cant argue with the names you put forth though.
Fammo won his title against Jose Legra in London... i think the bout you may be refering to was his defence against Fighting Harada at Sydney Stadium. The stadium erupted when Fammo was given the decision. I always felt a bit sorry for him...because it was a close fight...from memory Fammo bagged more rounds, but Harada's 3 knock downs should have been enough to see him get the decision. In Fammo's defence he did give Harada a rematch in Tokyo and he did knock him out.
Griffo was certainly a larrikin and his story is incredible as well as funny and entertaining. But Griffo was also considered by his peers as one of the greatest technicions of the era, along with Corbett. Im really not sure any Australian boxer was held in higher esteem during their time.
I do like you've got your own reasons for your places and good to see Rose getting a bit of love. As i said very hard task, if i had a list it would more than likely change on a daily basis
thunderfromdownunder wrote:Ok, before I post my list just a few quick thoughts,
I have read and researched a fair bit, and put a lot of thought into this list. I have also decided to include Australian citizens born overseas, and also, with a lot of the older guys there is little to no footage to look at.
So here it is.
1. Jeff Fenech
2. Dave Sands
3. Lionel Rose
4. Vic Darchinyan
5. Kostya Tszyu
6. Les Darcy
7. Jimmy Carruthers
8. Young Griffo
9. Jeff Harding
10. Johnny Famechon
11. Ron Richards
12. Jack Carroll
13. Fred Henneberry
14. Tony Mundine
15. Hector Thompson
So there it is. I think the top ten is extremely hard to rank. I went with Fenech based on his achievements, although he only had 33 fights, the level of competition was pretty high. Some people would disagree with sands being so high, but his record if phenomenal, actually a lot of those old time guys have pretty amazing records, if for nothing more than the sheer amount of bouts, and the domestic competition was way, way stronger back than than it is now. A lot of lists I've seen have Darcy was higher, while I agree he was an exceptional fighter, I think a lot of people rank him on potential, he did beat some good fighters but sadly he was dead at 21, so no one will ever know what could have been. No footage exits of young Griffo, but form whatbive read hes life story sounds like some kind of Hollywood movie. And lastly, johnny Famechon also usually comes in higher, I think he is a little overrated to be honest, the fight were he won the world title (can't remember the opponents name ) was one of the worst decisions I have ever seen. Anyway, ld be interested to see other peoples opinions, if anyone here knows a bit about Australian boxing history
Nice job Certainly didnt give yourself an easy task, cant argue with the names you put forth though.
Fammo won his title against Jose Legra in London... i think the bout you may be refering to was his defence against Fighting Harada at Sydney Stadium. The stadium erupted when Fammo was given the decision. I always felt a bit sorry for him...because it was a close fight...from memory Fammo bagged more rounds, but Harada's 3 knock downs should have been enough to see him get the decision. In Fammo's defence he did give Harada a rematch in Tokyo and he did knock him out.
Griffo was certainly a larrikin and his story is incredible as well as funny and entertaining. But Griffo was also considered by his peers as one of the greatest technicions of the era, along with Corbett. Im really not sure any Australian boxer was held in higher esteem during their time.
I do like you've got your own reasons for your places and good to see Rose getting a bit of love. As i said very hard task, if i had a list it would more than likely change on a daily basis
Thanks mate . No it was definatley the legra fight. It was a horrible decision IMO
Personally i would have Richards in the top 5, its a shame he never got the chance to fight overseas. There are a few guys guys like Ambrose Palmer, Barry Micheals, Vic Patrick, Rocky Mattioli who would certainly not look out of place in a top 15. Peter Jackson too come to think of it, he would certainly be in the top 10.
Tinnie wrote:Personally i would have Richards in the top 5, its a shame he never got the chance to fight overseas. There are a few guys guys like Ambrose Palmer, Barry Micheals, Vic Patrick, Rocky Mattioli who would certainly not look out of place in a top 15. Peter Jackson too come to think of it, he would certainly be in the top 10.
I thought Mattioli was Italian? Palmer beat Richards several times, I can't see any scenario where he rates above him. Unless they were all disputed? I haven't read the newspaper archives.
Mattioli was born in Italy but grew up and learned boxing in Australia... also started his career in Oz for a time training under Palmer... until i think in his early 20s when he moved back to Italy to further pursue a title shot, believing he would not get the opportunity in Australia.
In Palmer's series with Richards, Palmer while probobly the better pure boxer also was significantly bigger than Richards. Richards was a natural MW while Palmer was more of a LH. I think Richards had the better opposition including imports from the USA, he was highly ranked at MW for a few years. There was talk of him fighting Overlin when he came to Australia... i dont know why it never came off....it would have been a non title fight...but it would have been nice to see how he fared against the reigning MW champion
Tinnie wrote:Personally i would have Richards in the top 5, its a shame he never got the chance to fight overseas. There are a few guys guys like Ambrose Palmer, Barry Micheals, Vic Patrick, Rocky Mattioli who would certainly not look out of place in a top 15. Peter Jackson too come to think of it, he would certainly be in the top 10.
I was considering michaels for 15. Lester Ellis would prob crack the top 20 too
I think Vic Patrick deserves top 10 for sure. guy was a knock out artist who beat men much bigger than him. even had a close fight with Dawson (who himself was a great) It's a shame many old timer australian fighters never had the chance to mix it up in america. those days were the goldern era of australia boxing
Trent wrote:I think Vic Patrick deserves top 10 for sure. guy was a knock out artist who beat men much bigger than him. even had a close fight with Dawson (who himself was a great) It's a shame many old timer australian fighters never had the chance to mix it up in america. those days were the goldern era of australia boxing
For sure. Dave sands would have beaten jake lamotta handily IMO. Jack Carroll never got a shot a the welterweight title either
Interesting inclusion of Jack Carroll in your top 5 there Seamus, certainly wont argue his inclusion. Didnt think he was known beyond Australian shores, could you share some thoughts of him? I must admit he is one fighter i dont know too much about.... he was a tall WW with excellent range, awkward style and a hefty punch.... he has quite a reputation too, he is quite likely highly underrated in Australian boxing
Along with Jack Carroll's outstanding 94-11-6 record, he has 3 decision wins over Jimmy Leto and a stoppage of Wesley Ramey (Leto and Ramey are very deserving of induction in the IBHOF) a pair of wins over very underrated Tod Morgan, and another over Jack Portney, plus there's several other solid names on his resume.
Seamus wrote:Along with Jack Carroll's outstanding 94-11-6 record, he has 3 decision wins over Jimmy Leto and a stoppage of Wesley Ramey (Leto and Ramey are very deserving of induction in the IBHOF) a pair of wins over very underrated Tod Morgan, and another over Jack Portney, plus there's several other solid names on his resume.
Cheers for the response. Its hard to grasp some fighters opposition sometimes esp when they find themselves smack in the middle of an era with so much depth. Did a little reading on Jimmy Leto last night and looking forward to checking out the other fellas you mentioned there too. A fight Between Carroll and Ross in Australia was all set to go.... but Carrolls manager could not find enough financial backing to put forward the guaranteed purse upfront, so Ross' manager Sam Pian pulled the plug on the fight.
Hector Thompson will always be my number one. What a blend of boxing and fighting behind a thumping jab. Was a sure thing except for arguably the greatest lightweight (Duran) and greatest jr. welterweight (Cervantes) standing in his way. Also, I might add two additions to the ever growing list in George Barnes and Charkey Ramon. I will also mention, although not add, one of the hottest prospects around in Cliff Sarmardin. I only saw him once and was so impressed I made a mental note to keep an eye on him. Unfortunately, the first time I saw him was the last time he entered the ring. Retired with a 24-0 record and I have no idea why. Anyone recall???
A lot depends on how you define an australian, but using basically the concept of any fighters who commonly are considered Australian (even if they may have other and even better ties to other nations), i go with the following:
1. Bob Fitzsimmons - I am tempted to leave him out because he was born in England, grew up in New Zealand and chose to retire in the USA (could there have been any three more despicable associations for an australian?)/ Bit. He is the greatest fighter of all time, so by default he must also be the greatest Australian.
2. Les Darcy - Most of the old writers talk about Fitz being the greatest ever, but always put the asterisk next to Les Darcy. We just dont know how great he was or would ahve become. We do know though that he was quite a bit more highly regarded than Harry Greb, at similar stages of their career, and he had already done things that few others could do. Greb went on to be the greatest or at least on of the greatest figthers ever. Despite not having the longevity, Darcy was probably better. He must come in very highly.
3. Young Griffo - Although his record doesnt really stand out for some, when you consider that he was considered by most Australians to be a better fighter than alltime Greats like Gans, MCauliffe, Lavigne, Dixon, Erne, several of whom were not only considered the greatest figthers ever but still are. No one was seen as being close to him, when in his prime.
4. Kostya Tszyu - Unified champion, and pound for pound great in the multi title era. I think he was great for the fact that he got every last bit out of his potential, imo.
5. Peter Jackson - Unbeaten for about 10 years, he was considered the best fighter of his era for a long time. Unlike most modern heavys, it wasnt just due to his power but more his science and ability to fight. He was looked up to by everyone in Australia for years after his decline, and even today, would probably start favourite in any all time Australian heavyweight tournament.
6. Jeff Fenech - I dont think he is the lock everyone considers. He never really unified or proved total superiority at any one weight. But, Fenech fever overtook the nation, and if not for his hands, he would have obliterated his opposition. I have never seen anyone as dominant as he was, when in his prime. Though in some ways he is a bit of a what if, like Darcy and several other.
7. Larry Foley - I am going to throw Larry in here. He was considered unbeatable in his prime and legend has it that he fought and beat every single australian great as they came through the ranks, including Jackson and Fitzsimmons among others. He was undoubtedy tough and maybe it can be argued that his post fight career did more for the game than others, but i think deserves a spot.
8. Jimmy Carruthers - one of the most underated Aussies ever. An all time great, who is often forgotten. He retired as unbeaten World Champion which is a rare feat and while he did tarnish this a little with his comeback, he still showed that even past prime he was a great. I think he was better than Lionel Rose, who gets more attention.
9. Lionel Rose - I might not think him as good as Carruthers, but he was still very, very good. A legitimate World Champion, which is few and far between nowadays, with so many top 10 contenders being gifted alphabet shots. Lionel was incredibly popular.
10. Johnny Famechon - One of, if not the best pure boxer to have come from Australia. Wasnt as totally dominant on the world stage as some of the others above, but still, dont be surprised if he scores a pound for pound victory over anyone he has faced.
Do any Aussie's here buy World of Boxing? It seems to rehash career recaps of all these fighters endlessly. It's like blooming Groundhog Day reading that magazine! :) I think it could do with a Boxing News style revamp soon. Anthony Mundine isn't very popular down under, but surely he's achieved more already than his dad, Tony?
polecateddy wrote:Do any Aussie's here buy World of Boxing? It seems to rehash career recaps of all these fighters endlessly. It's like blooming Groundhog Day reading that magazine! :) I think it could do with a Boxing News style revamp soon. Anthony Mundine isn't very popular down under, but surely he's achieved more already than his dad, Tony?
I used to buy it. It's not as bad as the fist, don't ever buy that piece of crap.
Mundine jnr hasn't really achieved more than snr, snr was a commonwealth champ back in the day when those titles were highly regarded. Jnr has won three meaningless paper titles and aside from Green, Soliman and a gift over a then prospect Daniel Geale his resume is wafer thin
) was one of the worst decisions I have ever seen. Anyway, ld be interested to see other peoples opinions, if anyone here knows a bit about Australian boxing history
Certainly didnt give yourself an easy task, cant argue with the names you put forth though.
Fair call, i might revisit that one soon.... been a few years