Carlos Zarate vs. Lupe Pintor 'The Controversy'

[Rover]

The Scenario - 1979

How it was supposed to work out, as per Arturo 'Cuyo' Hernandez

June 29, 1979
Carlos Zarate retains his WBC Bantamweight Championship over #1 WBC Challenger - Lupe Pintor.
Carlos Zarate receives $160,000.........Lupe Pintor receives $25,000.
Lupe Pintor signs exclusive fight contract with Cuyo Hernandez.

October/November 1979
Carlos Zarate again challenges Wilfedo Gomez for his WBC Super-Bantamweight Championship.
Carlos Zarate receives $300,000 and vacates his WBC Bantamweight Championship

November 1979
#1 WBC Bantamweight - Lupe Pintor faces #2 WBC Bantamweight - Alfonso Zamora for the 'vacant'
Championship
Lupe Pintor was to receive approximately $75,000 as his fight purse, as was Alfonso Zamora.

Arturo 'Cuyo' Hernandez (Manager Percentage)
* $53,333 (Zarate vs Pintor)
* $100,000 (Zarate vs Gomez II)
* $25,000 (Pintor vs Zamora)

Thanks for another post that offers no substantive response to my points.

[Rover]

Mr. Land Rover,

Just because you don't believe the 'fix was in', doesn't mean that it wasn't.

It shouldn't be that difficult to understand, unless you have a blockage.

Don't be so 'obtuse'.

Just look at the facial expressions of both boxers after the Championship Bout.

That's all you need to know.

Just because you believe the fix was in doesn't mean it was.
And when you have to rely on "facial expressions," that's about as pathetic as it gets.
Keep playing, old sport.

[Rover]

John,

I'll see what I can find on the pre-fight negotiations.

Carlos Zarate received $150,000 - and Lupe Pintor received $40,000 for the June 29, 1979 bout.

Phil Silver, who was the acting Manager for Carlos Zarate, wanted the judges investigated by the WBC.
but that went nowhere.

The only thing I can find, is that an offer was made to Carlos Zarate of $50,000 to fight Lupe Pintor
within 90-Days, and with Cuyo Hernandez getting another 1-year contract with Carlos.

Thought you said Zarate was getting $160,000 and Pintor $25,000?

So what have we now learned?
That Zarate's manager wanted the judges investigated.
Yeah, that's evidence of a fix...in Fantasy Land.

[Rover]

Rover,

I'm glad you have finally come over to see it the proper way.

The fight was fixed in favor of Lupe Pintor, and his 'new' Manager Cuyo Hernandez.

Correct, Carlos Zarate received $150,000 - and Lupe Pintor $40,000 - as I wanted to make the
proper points.

Carlos Zarate agreed to a rematch within 90-Days (by September 3, 1979), but balked at the
$50,000 fight purse, and demand from Cuyo Hernandez for a 1-year Managers Contract.

Carlos was disgusted with the puny offer, and countered with a $100,000 fight purse or we'll walk.

As of late-August 1979 - no deal had been agreed upon, and Lupe Pintor then engaged in several
non-title bouts to stay sharp while waiting for Carlos to decide if he wanted to continue with his career.

You're even dumber than I'd thought if you actually think I agree with you that the fight was fixed.
Did you miss the "in Fantasy Land" part?
And was the purse $150,000-$40,000 or $160,000-$25,000? That's what you stated earlier.
And this post again tells us nothing new.
Pintor waited, and Zarate retired.
On to another page of whining; I await with alacrity the next quote from Jorge Zarate.

[Rover]

By September 1979 -

The Pintor vs Zarate II looked as a 'no go'

Lupe Pintor took 'two' non-title (October bouts) while Carlos Zarate was deciding whether to continue
for a possible late-1979 bout.

In the meantime, Don Fraser was trying to put together a Lupe Pintor vs #2 WBC - Alfonso Zamora bout for the
WBC Championship, just in case the Pintor-Zarate II (rematch) fell through.

Lupe completely disrespected Carlos in the Mexican Newspapers, calling him a weak old man, and that he was
a completely over-rated fighter who beat up a bunch of nobodies during his Championship reign. Lupe, 'I'll fight
him anyplace and anytime. He's an old man, and he should retire before he gets hurt.'

Zarate took his advice...at least for several years. He then came back and got whooped twice.

[Rover]

A good thing Lupe Pintor was 'friends' with Carlos Zarate.

Or he might have really said some disrespectful things in the Mexican Newspapers about Carlos.

October 22, 1979 -

Carlos Zarate, 'I thought Lupe was my friend. 4 years of friendship, and this is what he says about me,
that I'm an old man. I can't get mad at him, because I'm not that type of person. I wish him well, because
I am not interested in boxing anymore.'

Too bad he got interested again and got whooped twice.
Yet another post responding to none of my points.
Keep it up.

[Rover]

As of November 1, 1979

WBC Bantamweight Ratings

** Lupe Pintor
#1 Carlos Zarate
#2 Alfonso Zamora
#3 Alberto Davila

Jorge Zarate,

'Carlos will retire, rather than accept a fight purse of $50,000 to meet Lupe Pintor again. It's not the money,
but rather the contract that Cuyo Hernandez has presented us with.'

So he retired instead of waiting a year for a mandatory shot. In other words, the rematch didn't happen because he retired. Thanks for having confirmed that.

[Rover]

No,

Carlos would rather retire than get locked into a contract with Cuyo Hernandez.

If Carlos fights Lupe in late-1979, he wins again, without too much of a problem, with 'neutral and fair judges'
not named Harold Buck and Art Lurie.

As Jorge said, 'Carlos would only get $50,000 for the rematch with Lupe Pintor, plus signing a 1-year contract
with Cuyo Hernandez at a one-third (33 1/3%) Managers Contract. Carlos doesn't need the money, he is a
prideful man. He will not tarnish the good name of Zarate by selling out to an untrustworthy Manager. Let
Lupe Pintor fight Alfonso Zamora and Alberto Sandoval for 'beans and rice'. Everybody knows who the
real Champion is, Carlos Zarate.'

That post again fails to respond to my point, which you are obviously too intellectually incapable to understand.

[Rover]

November 16, 1979

The Forum - Inglewwod, California

#10 WBC - Eddie Logan (TKO 7) over #2 WBC - Alfonso Zamora

Carlos Zarate,

'I'm only here as a fight fan and spectator. I was hoping Alfonso won, so he could get a fight
with Lupe Pintor for the WBC Bantamweight Championship. I'm still ranked #1 by the WBC,
but I have no intentions of fighting anymore. I will not fight Lupe again, and not with Cuyo Hernandez
involved, in any way, shape or form. He's not going to get a great fight pay-day off my name.
I'd rather retire than do that.'

And Zarate didn't wait a year for his mandatory shot; he chose to retire. His choice.

[Rover]

True,

Carlos could have waited until June 1980 for his 'mandatory challenge'. Or, shoot up to 122 lbs. and
go after the WBA Super-Bantamweight Championship (vs. Ricardo Cardona).

But it was obvious that in 1979, Carlos wasn't into fighting anymore.

Give Carlos his due, he stuck to his word, and retired in 1979.

So in other words, he could have gone after the super bantam title and/or waited for his rematch, but *chose* not to. Exactly what I've been saying.

[Rover]

I think that Carlos and Jorge Zarate were just pissed off about the bad decision against Lupe Pintor costing
them $300,000 for the rematch with Wilfredo Gomez, a bout that Carlos Zarate desperately wanted for 1979.

They blamed Arturo 'Cuyo' Hernandez for the 'back room scoring' of the Pintor bout, and they had no 'real' interest in continuing.

Carlos worked hard to make 118 lbs. back then, and I'm sure he didn't want to go through the torture again, which weakened
him.

So Zarate chose to retire instead of waiting for his rematch. Got it, and I have since before this discussion began.
And there's no evidence of "back room scoring" of the fight. More conspiracy nonsense from you.

[Rover]

What rematch,,,,,,,,,

Carlos couldn't make 118 lbs. anymore, at least not for a $50,000 fight purse and signing a contract with Cuyo Hernandez.

The amount of the purse and whether one can make a weight are two different things. Try again.
And that has nothing to do with waiting for his mandatory shot.

[Rover]

Of course they don't mean the same thing.

But in this case, the $50,000 fight purse offer was not worth weakening down to 118 lbs. for Carlos.

The only thing Carlos wanted to do, was defeat Lupe Pintor ($150,000 fight purse) in June 1979, and move up to
122 lbs. and take on Wilfredo Gomez again ($300,000 fight purse) in October/November 1979.

A 'loss' to Wilfredo Gomez, and Carlos retires. A 'win' and Carlos goes after Danny 'Little Red' Lopez for a
minimum of $400,000 in 1980, with Carlos and Brother Jorge keeping the entire fight purse fee.

The 'controversial decision loss' tossed the apple cart up in the air, and continuing made no sense, financial wise.
Not worth the effort to get down to 118 lbs. for a paltry fight purse ($50,000) in the Fall of 1979, plus signing
your last 2-bouts away to an untrustworthy individual, who already screwed you over once.

If Carlos did fight a rematch with Lupe Pintor in September 1979, and won. It wouldn't have stirred up any interest
in the Wilfredo Gomez II 'rematch', as the earlier loss' to Lupe Pintor squashed that bout, for big money anyway, as
Carlos would have had to give Cuyo Hernandez 'one-third'.

Another non-response to the point that he *chose* not to wait for his mandatory shot.
And "would not" differs from "could not."
Another long post full of sound and fury signifying nothing. Keep playing.

[Rover]

It's too bad about the 'bad decision' in the Zarate vs Pintor bout.

A Wilfredo Gomez vs Carlos Zarate rematch in Las Vegas in October 1979 would have been fantastic.

A healthy Carlos Zarate with no managerial problems, and a properly calibrated scale.

Then, Lupe Pintor vs Alfonso Zamora for the 'vacant' WBC Bantamweight Championship in Los Angeles
for November 1979.

We lost out on both potentially great fights.

Jorge Zarate's claims don't suffice as evidence of a rigged scale.

[Rover]

Rigged Scale.......

October 1978.

Carlos Zarate received $250,000 to go to Puerto Rico to challenge Wilfredo Gomez
for his WBC Super-Bantamweight Championship.

Wilfredo Gomez, received only $150,000 - ($100,000 less) to have the bout in Puerto Rico,
and as the defending champion.

WHY, would Wilfredo take $100,000 less ????

Anything bizzare about that. The whole fight (Promoted by Don King and Salinas Promotions)
was 'fishy'.

Another post providing zero evidence. Keep it up.

[Rover]

June 1979

Pre-Fight Odds....................Carlos Zarate 5-1 over Lupe Pintor

Saturday Odds....................Carlos Zarate 3-1 over Lupe Pintor

Sunday Fight Time...............Carlos Zarate 2-1 over Lupe Pintor

Somebody was betting heavy on Guadalupe.

Again, so what? Late money went towards JMM before Pac IV, too.

[Rover]

Looks like Arturo 'Cuyo' Hernandez had a 'quiet bettor' dumping cash on Lupe.

Somebody knew something was up..........Thank You, Art Lurie and Harold Buck,

Another post sans evidence.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I'd like to nominate this as one of the worst threads in the history of BOTP. Somebody please drop it and let it die.

[Esquire]

Didn't see this post until just now. These were two of my favorites fighters and while Zarate needs no defending as to his greatness, Lupe was one really good win away from being an IBHOF'er. I'm aware that he is in that other HOF.

This was one of the earliest fights I recorded since I purchased my first VCR about a year earlier than that. It wasn't a terrible decision. Lupe had very clearly won rounds and Carlos was just so damned robotical and deliberate and he could be outworked. I've always said that I couldn't understand why Zarate had such a high KO ratio (and it is epic) since he threw no where near as many punches as one might think.

Anyway, the one win that Lupe needed was against Gomez and he had that in his hands a few times in that fight. Gomez hit Pintor with every illegal punch in the book including elbows to the head (he was a master at deliberately missing with his overhand right and following through with this right elbow - Azumah Nelson said in a later interview that Gomez hit him repeatedly with elbows as well) and low blows and that's what I think eventually wore out Pintor who was as tough as they come.

[Rover]

Esquire,,,,

Glad you enjoyed the thread, unlike a few 'blockheads'.

Yes, Carlos fought very 'reserved', as he was in the ring with his friend. He threw very of his
vicious left hooks underneath, and his right hand was nearly welded to his body.

It was a completely different Zarate in the ring that Sunday Afternoon at Caesar's Palace.

Like I said earlier, it was almost like he was carrying Lupe, or afraid to open up and hurt him with
anything heavy. I still had Carlos winning, but it was a lot closer than the Associated Press had it,
11-2-2 in Rounds for Zarate.

Every Ringside Reporter ('19') had Carlos winning, and not one had Lupe winning more than '5' Rounds.

There were several close rounds, but they could never be rewarded to the Challenger.

Enjoying discussing a fight is different from enjoying reading conspiracy theories.

[Rover]

Lupe Pintor was supposed to fight Alfonso Zamora in late-December 1979 -

But Alfonso got KO'd by Eddie Logan.....

Then, in a non-title go in December 1979, Lupe gets TKO'd also.

The Bantamweight Division was coming apart.

Nonsense. Was that nontitle fight even in the bantamweight division?

[Rover]

Saturday - December 29, 1979

Hermosillo, Mexico

In a non-title bout, WBC Bantamweight Champion Lupe Pintor (119 lbs.) faced
un-ranked Mexican Bantamweight - Manuel 'Topo Gigio' Vasquez (118 lbs.)

Vasquez was ranked as the #8 Mexican Bantamweight, and came in with a
record of 33-14-4 (23 KO's), including '12' losses by knockout.

It was supposed to be nothing more than a 'stay-busy tune-up' for the WBC
Bantamweight Champion.

The Fight,

'Topo Gigio' floored Lupe in the 1st Round with a left-right to the head. In Round 2
Vasquez cut Lupe's left eye open with a right hand.

The cut got progressively worse, as Vasquez continued to work on the cut. Lupe
attempted to wear down Vasquez with left hooks to the body, but Vasquez hung tough,
and opened up the cut even worse in Round 5.

In Round 6, the cut was too bad to let Lupe continue, forcing a TKO 6 stoppage.

Boxrec has Pintor's weight as 118 and his opponent's as 119.

[Rover]

No,

Manuel 'Topo Gigio' Vasquez, was (118 lbs.) and was based out of Hermosillo, Mexico.

Vasquez was the local guy, and had won '7' straight in 1979 entering the bout against Lupe,
after a bad run in 1978.

Vasquez was unranked in the World Ratings, but was the #8 Mexican Bantamweight. After
'upsetting' Lupe Pintor in the December 29, 1979 non-title bout by a (TKO 6), he was ranked
as the #9 WBC Bantamweight in the next rankings.

A rematch for the World Title between Manuel Vasquez and Lupe Pintor was supposed to take place on
Saturday, April 19, 1980 in Mexico City, after Lupe fought Alberto Sandoval in February 1980, in California.

Lupe went on to a successful and lucrative Championship Bout versus Alberto 'Superfly' Sandoval in February 1980,
but cancelled out for the rematch bout with Manuel Vasquez.

Hmmm...trust Boxrec or Il Duce...I'll go with Boxrec.

[Rover]

Box/Rec does have Lupe Pintor at 119 lbs.

You must not be wearing your reading glasses.

Do your research.

Lupe Pintor received $15,000 for the non-title bout with Manuel Vasquez on December 29, 1979

Lupe Pintor received $100,000 for his February 9, 1980 'first title defese' against Alberto Sandoval
at The Forum in California.

Lupe signed to fight #9 WBC Manuel 'Top Gigio' Vasquez on Saturday, April 19, 1980 for a fight purse
of $85,000.

Wrong. Just checked it again. Pintor is listed at *118*. Then Vasquez's name is listed, and underneath his name is his weight, *119*.
You're the master of adding things (like the purses) that have *nothing* to do with the point of contention. Vasquez weighed above the bantam limit.

[Rover]

I stand corrected,

Box/Rec had Lupe Pintor at 118 lbs. and Manuel Vasquez at 119 lbs.

My newspaper article has the boxer's posted weights reversed.

The fight purses, I thought you would be interested, and that Lupe was going to
fight Vasquez later, after Alberto Sandoval.