LISTON VS WEPNER -- FIXED FIGHT?

[keithmoonhangover]

Anyone who says something like, 'I can't understand the reason for Liston throwing the fight.' Needs to focus on one word.... MONEY.

[Brutu]

If the mob did rub Liston out it would have been because he owed some debts.
His purse money for the Wepner fight was only 13 thousand dollars.
Which he brought back to Las Vegas in a brown paper bag.
of the 13 k he had to pay off a 10 thousand dollar bet he had placed (and lost)
on the Quarry vs Mac Foster fight about 2 weeks earlier.

[molecule76]

That's not the story.... his purse would have nothing to do with it. The rumor was, per Johnny Tocco, that Liston had possibly agreed to dump the fight to Wepner... and mid-fight, changed his mind.

And he was whacked for it.

That's the rumor.

[Crease]

No.

The real question is:
Why do we keep brining this issue up?

[Brutu]

The earliest rumors shortly after his death was that he was trying to muscle in on the territory of a major drug dealer in Las Vegas.

[Brutu]

What about the rumor that Ash Resnick(who may or may not have had ties to organized crime) had him whacked because they
had a falling out,and Liston threatened to
"Spill the Beans'?

[Brutu]

No offense to Chuck Wepner,but who Liston really wanted to fight in 1970,(other then Joe Frazier for the title)
was Jerry Quarry.
He had started training for the Quarry fight as soon as he got back to Las Vegas from the Wepner fight.

[molecule76]

That drug dealer you're talking about is named Frank "Pee Wee" Mathers... I've been looking into that as well.
Interesting stuff...

[Brutu]

I have one of my own personnel theories as to why Liston may have been bumped off.
If(allegedly)Ash Resnick was involved.It may have been to protect Joe Louis.
Who Liston was a friend of.
Joe Louis had only relocated to Las Vegas in 1970,after spending 6 months in a mental hospital in Colorado.
Joe Louis had also been a cocaine addict since the early 1960's.
Perhaps Liston was the one who was supplying Joe Louis with the cocaine for his own personal use?
and Ash Resnick who was also a good friend of Joe Louis ,didn't want an American hero to be further tarnished.
It has been said that Louis never really did get off drugs until his stroke in 1977.

[molecule76]

Thing about that theory though... is that Liston gave a LOT of money to Louis for bills and gambling, etc... Louis was Liston's idol.
So that's kind of a tough one to justify. But anything in this is worth looking into...

[Brutu]

Personally,I have little doubt,that Liston and Matthews knew each other(Matthews was a boxing fan and spent a lot of time in Las Vegas).
Here is a link to an in-depth article about the life and crimes of Frank Matthews.

http://www.crimemagazine.com/black-caesar-0

Bump-if Frank Matthews did not have Liston bumped off,
Im sure he probably knows who did.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Fascinating reading, gents. Thanks.

[Brutu]

http://www.crimemagazine.com/black-caesar-0

Too bad one cant read this article for free anymore about Frank Matthews.
But check out where the photograph was taken.

[misterpunch]

i cant see liston being whacked for tarnishing the image of joe. the idea is not strong enough. the muscle in theory however makes sense

[Brutu]

Well I think it goes beyond tarnishing Joe Louis's image.
It was well known to the public by then that he had a problem with cocaine and that he spent some 7 months in a Vet's mental hospital
before being released around October 1970 and moving to Las Vegas.
Maybe the concern was if Liston was selling or giving cocaine to Joe Louis so he could get hooked again
this time it could kill him and also Ash Resnick wanted Joe Louis at Caesar's Palace(Resnick was part owner) to be a PR man and
greeter there. and maybe a concern about tarnishing his name all over again.
I think I mentioned it earlier,but in the HBO documentery AMERICAS HERO BETRAYED.
Ash resnick's wife said that resnick had caught someone trying to sell Joe Louis cocaine
and he had him thrown out of the building.
Was it Sonny Liston?Did Liston clench his fist and threaten Ash Resnick,like he at
allegedly done to Moe Daltiz(an alleged Cleveland mob boss) a few years earlier in a hotel in Beverly Hills?
As far as I know Liston was still employed at Caesar's Palace when he died.
Who really was the last person(s) to see him alive?
They probably knew that he had stayed back in town instead of leaving to
visit his mother-in-law with his wife Geraldine who left town
around December 23rd to visit St. Louis.
No doubt Liston had been invited by various people to spend Christmas with them.
and probably New Year's Eve too.I dont remember reading who it was that was recorded
to be the last people who had spoke to him.Sounds like a cover-up,no one wanted to come forward
because they may have gotten into trouble over something else.
But like you said if Liston was murdered,Most likely the culprits where probably connected in some way
to the loan sharking buissness that Liston had gotten involved with(which was the rumour shortly after he was found dead)
but now his former friends in high places on the Las Vegas strip(probably) didnt really care what would happened to him anymore at that point.

[HomicideHenry]

The June 1970 bout was 'not fixed'

Despite the rumors, Chuck Wepner was 'not' in line for a Championship Bout with Joe Frazier in
Madison Square Garden for late-1970.

What was in the New Jersey Newspapers, was that 'if' Chuck Wepner upset Sonny Liston, he may
be a good Challenger as a 'stay busy/tune-up bout' for Joe Frazier in the Fall of 1970.

It was nothing more than good copy for Chuck Wepner, that Manager Al Braverman tossed to the press.

Seconded, Braverman was the quintessential front man and manager with the flare for the flamboyant. We wouldnt see a charcter like him until Cooney's management came about in the 1980s, the "Whacko Twins".

[HomicideHenry]

Couldnt of been any worse than Ron Stander, know what I mean?

[HomicideHenry]

Though Ron Stander came later (1972),,,,,,,

It would have been brutal,,,,,,,,

Chuck (A Union-Connected fighter), was just plain awful sometimes. He would have been
perfect in one of the Clint Eastwood Movies, "Every Which Way But Loose", and could have
used his real nickname 'The Bayonne Bleeder'.

I'll see if I can pull up one his Newspaper Clippings from 1969, pretty funny stuff.

Chuck was Age 30 in 1969, and Al Braverman said his fighter was a young heavyweight on the rise,
the best Heavyweight in the Tri-State area.

Yeah but all around Chuck wasn't as bad as people made him out to be. When he fought Ali in 1975 he was indeed the #8 ranked heavyweight in the world, he did earn his place as a contender. Now as far as 1969 is concerned, doesnt every management team talk a regional fighter up? Chuck very well may of had a claim to being the best heavyweight on the Eastern seaboard at that time. As far as how a Frazier/Wepner fight would of gone, I'll agree it would have been brutal, but I don't see Wepner getting blasted out of there in one or two rounds even in 1969. I think he could have went as long as he wanted to with Frazier (after all he did fight Liston and went the full route damn near with 87 stitches in his face). Chuck may not of won jack on the scorecards, but he always came forward and was a tough man. Frazier wouldnt of been able to kayo him IMHO, but bust him up (of course). Also, dont forget the amateur credentials of Wepner either, the man had over 100 amateur fights and was the Golden Gloves and AAU heavyweight champion. He wasn't some flunky.

[HomicideHenry]

I think he would of lasted a little bit longer than that. Wepner was significantly bigger than Frazier, being 6'5" and all. Chuck did last three with Chuck Wepner and that was because his eyeball was knocked out of his socket. Otherwise he would of went longer with George.

[Brutu]

At his offical web site,Chuck Wepner said that he had sparred over 70 rounds with Joe Frazier when Frazier was preparing to fight Tony Alongi June.23.1966 at the Olympic Auditorium in Los Angeles.
(The fight was cancelled,because Alongi withdrew while in training).
When Joe Frazier passed away in 2011,here is what Chuck Wepner said about sparring with him.
that he would never forget the feeling of his unforgivable left hook.
"I was throwing some right hands and he kept slipping and hitting me to the side and coming back to the head,"
Wepner recalled
"After the first round,I stopped throwing rights".

[Brutu]

As far as my earlier comment about whether Liston vs Wepner had been fixed.
There may be a difference between a fixed fight and someone telling one of the fighters
to maybe try and not win the bout.
When one hears that it may have been fixed,one thinks of the"Boys" back in Bayonne New Jersey
making some money.However if someone else was to have asked Liston to tank the fight
so they can make some money off a bet in Las Vegas,who knows for sure?
Liston had some sort of gambling problem(not as big as Joe Louis's though)
Sonny Liston had to give 10K of his 13K purse he got from the Wepner fight to pay off a bet he had lost a week earlier,
when he picked Mac Foster to defeat Jerry Quarry.
Thats a big chunk of change for someone who wasnt making hardly any money anymore.
(Joe Louis's wife was a succesful lawyer,so Joe Louis never had to fear about being destitute
because of his own gambling problem,Joe Louis even use to gamble with the house money or even other peoples(tourists) money at the black jack table
over at Caesar's Palace.)
So who would ask Sonny Liston to take a dive for a relatively small amount of money.
Someone who knew him,whom he may have ownd money too.
Maybe they thought it was cool to hang around with an ex-heavyweight champion of the world
every now and then,but thought their career was over,so why not take a dive for some short end money.
Personally I doubt if someone like Frank Matthews was rooting for Sonny Liston to win
over Muhammad Ali either time they had fought.No doubt he was an Ali fan,but maybe even never met him.
So back to square one,who knows for sure?especially since time has claimed so many eyewitnesses.

[Brutu]

Shortly after Wepner turned pro,Sonny Liston's camp offered Chuck Wepner a job as a sparring partner for Liston,
when Liston was either hurting or running all his sparring partners out of camp,
when he was training for the original rematch with Muhammad Ali
for Boston November 1964.
I think the going rate was 40 dollars a round plus room,board and transportation.
Wepner didnt become one though.

[Brutu]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1970-SONNY-List ... 2575243c6d

[Caractacus]

One cant just suspect the black underworld in West Las Vegas though.
The Mafia was also reportly involved in narcotics trafficking in Las Vegas around that time too,particularly heroin.
In the late 1960's Mafia boss Joe Bonanno(Joe Bananas),along with his acting boss Natalie(Joe Diamond)Evola.
Both in their 60's relocated from New York to Arizona,living in Tuscon but operating out of Phoenix Arizona.
Cheese factory,Laundry business and real estate.
That's what I heard.
I believe there was some sort of scandal in the early 1970's of drugs being distributed out of the Desert Inn on the strip too,
but I'm not sure who was involved in that.
Liston was obviously(allegedly) selling drugs on the strip it sounds like.

Oh Man,are you Good !