Haye: the defining fight for Vitali?

[JLP]

After his lacklustre showing in the heavyweight division to date, David Haye is still trying hard to sell himself as the biggest name in the division. To be fair to him, he is a good salesman. He is desperate to get a chance to pick off the near geriatric Vitali, he knows that people have short memories and can easily be hyped up by his spiel. It must be great to be able to talk yourself into multi-million dollar paydays despite being largely underwhelming time and again.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/others ... ility.html

[stujones]

Sorry, Haye is no more defining than Samuel Peter on Vitali's comeback.

[JLP]

Sorry, Haye is no more defining than Samuel Peter on Vitali's comeback.

Don't apologise, I concur 100%. Haye is hugely overrated.

[dondada]

After his lacklustre showing in the heavyweight division to date, David Haye is still trying hard to sell himself as the biggest name in the division. To be fair to him, he is a good salesman. He is desperate to get a chance to pick off the near geriatric Vitali, he knows that people have short memories and can easily be hyped up by his spiel.

Well said, sir.

[Counter-puncher]

something about empty vessels making the most noise...

[TopGun]

Sorry, Haye is no more defining than Samuel Peter on Vitali's comeback.

Don't apologise, I concur 100%. Haye is hugely overrated.

haye will never go down as the greatest but you have to give the guy more credit. He is not a natural heavyweight, but has acheived a lot in very few fights. The guy can bang and nobody can deny that.

[SteveDow]

I'd fancy Vitali to beat him fairly easily even though I do like and rate Haye very highly.

Whilst he is slowing down, Vitali has an iron chin and has never even been down let alone stopped as a professional. Haye would have to fight a Valuev like fight where he uses his speed to dart in and out to have a chance but he'd have to dominate the fight to win and I don't see him being able to do that against Vitali. If Haye stood toe to toe with Vitali he'd be stopped I think.

[LeedsLad]

Vitali's defining fight has always been, and will always be, the defeat against Lewis.

Beating a gobshite like Haye (or losing to him at an advanced age) won't affect his historical standing one jot.

I really wish Haye would have enjoyed it so much in Australia that he'd decided to stay there. Hate him with a passion.

[JLP]

Sorry, Haye is no more defining than Samuel Peter on Vitali's comeback.

Don't apologise, I concur 100%. Haye is hugely overrated.

haye will never go down as the greatest but you have to give the guy more credit. He is not a natural heavyweight, but has acheived a lot in very few fights. The guy can bang and nobody can deny that.

Haye is every inch a heavyweight. Compare his stats to the all time greats, he is not small. He can bang. He has not achieved as much as some people think he has achieved. His heavyweight success is a bit of a myth.

[Superheavy]

Haye's destruction of Chisora was pretty impressive

[TopGun]

haye will never go down as the greatest but you have to give the guy more credit. He is not a natural heavyweight, but has acheived a lot in very few fights. The guy can bang and nobody can deny that.[/quote]

Haye is every inch a heavyweight. Compare his stats to the all time greats, he is not small. He can bang. He has not achieved as much as some people think he has achieved. His heavyweight success is a bit of a myth.[/quote]

Things have changed, people have got bigger and taller. Haye is no longer a natural HW. 15+ years ago yes. The HW styles have changed beacuse of it too.

[Dixonian]

Haye was chinny as a cruiserweight because he had to boil down to make weight. It's only because he looks small compared to some of the giants of the heavyweight division that people suggest he's not a natural heavy. He is. And to be fair his results prove it.

[winkveron]

Haye is a gobshite out of the ring but I give him credit for chasing the Klits. He could´ve stayed at cruiserweight or sat on a s##t version of the HW title but he has gone for the biggest names, even if the Wlad fight was a joke.

[Final round]

Not defining, no a bit of salesman spiel to make the fight as t'others said.
Getting torn up by Lennox was the big one for Vit but I think he'd be a decent name on Vitali's record.
Also Haye just stopped Chisora who Vitali couldn't so a bit of a footnote for his career if he could do Haye.
I realise that Haye's economic counterpunching style isn't everyone's cup of tea but he's a proper fighter who seeks out the biggest challenge.
I think his run at HW has been ok (I'm not going through them one by one again!)and exciting at times again if you like his style which I do.
Again he completely delivered in his last fight against Chisora which had more excitement than the last few Klit fights and I believe he would fornicating banjo Fury right now imo.
People use the Wlad fight as a stick to beat him with but he had some success at times did some damage, not enough and took Wlads full punches.
The salesman schtick promises of destruction that drew the gullible into shelling their hard earned against Wlad pissed plenty of people off and they hold it against him..I'm sure he doesn't dwell on it .
I never thought he'd chin Klitchsko though so wasn't too pissed.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I'd fancy Vitali to beat him fairly easily even though I do like and rate Haye very highly.

Whilst he is slowing down, Vitali has an iron chin and has never even been down let alone stopped as a professional. Haye would have to fight a Valuev like fight where he uses his speed to dart in and out to have a chance but he'd have to dominate the fight to win and I don't see him being able to do that against Vitali. If Haye stood toe to toe with Vitali he'd be stopped I think.

Haye's speed is vastly overrated - people assume being a smallish heavyweight by modern standards that he has great handspeed - he doesn't. Wlad had notably quicker hands than Haye in their fight.

Part of it is that he doesn't throw his shots straight, they tend to loop, which means by their nature they take longer to reach their target.

Vitali carries his hands far forward when he fights - and leans back, utilising his long arms, this means they dont have a great distance to travel, whilst his head is out of reach of his opponents.

Haye would get caught darting in, as Vitali has underrated footwork for a big man, he takes a little half step back or in adjusting his distance.

I really see no way Haye beats Vitali, Vitali is bigger, better, and tougher.

[ILikeBeer]

People who say Haye is overrated forget what he did in unifying the cruiserweight titles. Okay, he wasn't in the strongest division, but he had fast hands and a hell of a whck and wasn't afraid to travel to an opponent's back yard to take a fight.

The problem is when he moved up in weight, Haye seemed to think he had to gob off at every opportunity. For example, he was acting like he was going to knock Valuev easily. Of course he wasn't. Valuev was double his size. Of course he was going to have to be the speedier one, getting in and punching Valuev and getting out of the way before Valuev landed on him. But people fell for his; "I'm going to kick the crap out of him from post to post" nonsense. So they assumed he was rubbish, because he couldn't back up the claims he made in selling the fight.

He hasn't achieved as much as he promised at heavyweight. But I think if you examine what he did before being a heavy, it's difficult to call Haye overrated.

[JLP]

People who say Haye is overrated forget what he did in unifying the cruiserweight titles. Okay, he wasn't in the strongest division, but he had fast hands and a hell of a whck and wasn't afraid to travel to an opponent's back yard to take a fight.

The problem is when he moved up in weight, Haye seemed to think he had to gob off at every opportunity. For example, he was acting like he was going to knock Valuev easily. Of course he wasn't. Valuev was double his size. Of course he was going to have to be the speedier one, getting in and punching Valuev and getting out of the way before Valuev landed on him. But people fell for his; "I'm going to kick the crap out of him from post to post" nonsense. So they assumed he was rubbish, because he couldn't back up the claims he made in selling the fight.

He hasn't achieved as much as he promised at heavyweight. But I think if you examine what he did before being a heavy, it's difficult to call Haye overrated.

I think more people (conveniently) forget that his "unification" efforts at cruiserweight did not involve fights against the best two fighters in the division: Steve Cunningham and Tomasz Adamek. His win on the road against Mormeck, albeit an aged Mormeck, was a good win, the best of his career. But what else did he do at cruiserweight (given the status he has generated)?

[ILikeBeer]

I think more people (conveniently) forget that his "unification" efforts at cruiserweight did not involve fights against the best two fighters in the division: Steve Cunningham and Tomasz Adamek. His win on the road against Mormeck, albeit an aged Mormeck, was a good win, the best of his career. But what else did he do at cruiserweight (given the status he has generated)?

Fair point, perhaps.

I'd say his other big win was against Enzo. But, I feel bad for even saying that. Because I never rated Enzo that highly and was amazed anybody picked him to beat Haye.

[SteveDow]

I think more people (conveniently) forget that his "unification" efforts at cruiserweight did not involve fights against the best two fighters in the division: Steve Cunningham and Tomasz Adamek. His win on the road against Mormeck, albeit an aged Mormeck, was a good win, the best of his career. But what else did he do at cruiserweight (given the status he has generated)?

Fair point, perhaps.

I'd say his other big win was against Enzo. But, I feel bad for even saying that. Because I never rated Enzo that highly and was amazed anybody picked him to beat Haye.

I'd still rate Haye as the second best cruiserweight of all time behind Holyfield. I'm convinced Haye would have stopped Cunningham and Adamek if he had fought them at cruiserweight. His power was freakish and coupled with his speed he'd have been a handful for anybody at the weight.

[JLP]

I think more people (conveniently) forget that his "unification" efforts at cruiserweight did not involve fights against the best two fighters in the division: Steve Cunningham and Tomasz Adamek. His win on the road against Mormeck, albeit an aged Mormeck, was a good win, the best of his career. But what else did he do at cruiserweight (given the status he has generated)?

Fair point, perhaps.

I'd say his other big win was against Enzo. But, I feel bad for even saying that. Because I never rated Enzo that highly and was amazed anybody picked him to beat Haye.

I'd still rate Haye as the second best cruiserweight of all time behind Holyfield. I'm convinced Haye would have stopped Cunningham and Adamek if he had fought them at cruiserweight. His power was freakish and coupled with his speed he'd have been a handful for anybody at the weight.

@ILikeBeer, I think Enzo is a lovely bloke but I don't think that it's unreasonable to say that he was not a genuine world class operator.

@Steve, he didn't fight them, so we'll never know. He did fight the shop-worn version of Carl Thompson. He is a banger, though, I'll always credit him with that.

[dookus]

Haye should have fought Cunningham.

With regard to Adamek, it may be a bit harsh on Haye to condemn him for not fighting the Pole at cruiserweight. When Haye won the titles Adamek had yet to do anything of note at Cruiserweight; he didn't become IBF champion until the end of 2008, by which time Haye had moved up to Heavyweight, beaten Barrett and started his long foul-mouthed campaign to take on Wladimir Klitschko. I certainly would have loved to see a fight between them; at cruiserweight Haye's less than stellar chin and reduced output would have given Adamek a lot of courage, but Haye would have had a great advantage in power and boxing ability (especially lateral movement). At heavyweight, I think a fully hydrated Haye wins comfortably.

[The 1bangkid]

Sorry, Haye is no more defining than Samuel Peter on Vitali's comeback.

Don't apologise, I concur 100%. Haye is hugely overrated.

[Jack B]

I think more people (conveniently) forget that his "unification" efforts at cruiserweight did not involve fights against the best two fighters in the division: Steve Cunningham and Tomasz Adamek. His win on the road against Mormeck, albeit an aged Mormeck, was a good win, the best of his career. But what else did he do at cruiserweight (given the status he has generated)?

I think you've conveniently forgotten that when Haye fought Mormeck he not only held the WBC/WBA titles, but was universally recognised as the legitimate world champion and #1 in the division.

At that point Cunningham had only just won the IBF belt (which was only available because O'Neil Bell - the legit. champ at the time - was stripped) and was certainly not seen as the 'man'. Adamek had only had 1 fight at cruiserweight.

If you're being hypercritical, you could argue that Haye could have fought Cunningham either instead of or after Enzo. But what was the point? Haye had achieved all he'd set out to do - i.e. be the best in the division and be seen as the legitimate champ - and fighting a no-name American wasn't really on his agenda.

He only stayed on at cruiser to fight Enzo for the big money and publicity it garnered before his move up to heavyweight.

[hurlock]

Haye has not really cemented himself as a leading heavy IMO
Who did he really fight to get his crack at valuev??
He traded on being undisputed cruiser champ in which he was not! & ran with a bad toe for 12rds & I think his stock & hype have gone.
He is trading on the fact vitali said he will stop him so the challenge is if haye can survive while being paid handsomely.
He ripped fans off IMO he talked it up for sales & did not commit himself to take any risks & let his support down which ain't except able for a person who refuses signing an autograph.

[JLP]

He only stayed on at cruiser to fight Enzo for the big money and publicity it garnered before his move up to heavyweight.

Agreed.