Muhammad Ali's condition....Is it boxing related?

[elmersalsa]

It hurts to see greats like Muhammad Ali in the condition that he is in. Was his condition caused because of the punches he took in the ring or because of Parkinsons?

[HomicideHenry]

Originally he was diagnosed with "Parkinson's Syndrome" which isn't Parkinson's, just a neurological disorder that mimics Parkinson's. Now the school of thought is that he did have Parkinson's. But for the longest time he had his mental faculties, these last few years however they say he is not thinking clearly any more. His Parkinson's seems to of become a combination of Parkinson's and Alzheimer's disease.

I used to think it was boxing related. And maybe it is. The Ali in training camp was certainly not the one in the ring come fight night. In training he allowed sparring partners to pummel him. In actual fights he seldom got hit clean to the head until the late 70s. However, I think it's just something that happened. Then again, one punch is also one punch too many. I know after my fight with J'Leon Love, even though I lost on a TKO, for almost a week after that fight I slurred in speech and my mind raced though I was fine.

[elmersalsa]

I ask this question because there were lots of boxers that received much more punches and had much more fights than the great Muhammad Ali did. I also want to know how come that is possible?

There are other sports out there that are more dangerous and produce more deaths than boxing. For example, American NFL football. Now ex-players of the NFL are suing the league for CTE injuries. Greats like the one Alex Karras that died last year, sued the NFL. And the suit is still in progress. But I have never seen an ex-football player suffering from Parkinsons like Ali does now.

[HomicideHenry]

It is something to ask about. Floyd Patterson wound up with Alzheimer's, yet I never saw Patterson take that many clean shots to the head. Yet a guy like Wepner or Cobb or Chuvalo still have their mental faculties.

[HomicideHenry]

I do know there is a correlation over the 300 plus years of pugilism of the changing of rules, rounds, equipment as well. Pugilistic Dementia was never documented or talked about until the 1920s following the neutral corner rule under the Marquis of Queensbury rules. Prior to the creation of Queensbury, though there were some times deaths attributed to prize fighting, men had shorter careers, made their fortunes, etc and only came away with superficial damages under London Prize.

It seems the shorter the fights are, the bigger the gloves are, the more strenuous the dehydration and rehydration process is, the more boxing injuries you see. Then again it also depends on the fighter too, look at Marcus Rhodes whose had almost 80 pro bouts and he talks clear as a bell nothing wrong with him at all and hes been kayoed 40 times. Yet you take a guy like Holyfield who went round after round, etc. and he's hard to understand and its shocking how much his reflexes have went.

[misterpunch]

good points from one who has the best kind of experience of the issue

and there may be a greater lesson here - keep drinking tons of water, whether you are a fighter or a chimney sweep, it may keep your mind in good nick to a ripe old age.

[yancey]

It hurts to see greats like Muhammad Ali in the condition that he is in. Was his condition caused because of the punches he took in the ring or because of Parkinsons?

It was very likely caused by the punches thrown by quite a few guys over the years.

Frazier did him no good with some of those hooks in their fights. I've always thought an attrition puncher could be more damaging long term than a concussive type of puncher. I still remember the shot Frazier hit Ali with in the sixth round at Manila. Dundee called that the hardest shot he ever saw Ali take, though Frazier was definitely diminished by '74.

Ernie Shavers hit Ali with some scary shots, too.

Ali stayed too long and definitely paid the price.

[klompton]

He has Parkinson's Syndrome. One of the causes of Parkinson's Syndrome is brain damage due to trauma. Freddie Roach has the same thing.

[Syntax Error]

Ali's current predicament is surely as a result of all the trauma caused by the blows to the head he received, however, he was predisposed to the Parkinson's as his father had the disease, so it is in his genes.

[JMac]

I have asked a neurologist if a person who had never been hit in the head could have what Ali has and he said yes. With that said, realistically boxing had to cause what Ali has. I have been around boxing for 35 years and have seen too many boxers who started off as young amateurs who had 100 plus bouts go onto pro careers and now they are slurring their words and seem slower in how they act. As much as I love boxing and continue to coach, it is not healthy to get hit in the head, simple as that.
I recently wrote on the amateur forum about AIBA removing the headgear for national, world and Olympic boxing. I think part of it is to bring back fans but also they now have doctors saying they think headgear increases the chances for brain trauma and I can see that. When you wear a headgear, you are less likely to move your head and don't mind taking a jab or straight cross on the forehead but the brain is still getting jarred. The headgear also increases the size of the head making it a bigger target. Removing the headgear will hopefully force the boxer to learn to slip punches better to avoid getting hit thus lessening the trauma to the brain.

[misterpunch]

might come a day when we get the gloves off again - that would stop the amount of blows taken to the head - watch this space!

[JLP]

I think hard sparring is as much of a contributor as anything to fighters getting punchy. I've sparred in the UK and the US and in the US (unless they just didn't like me) the sparring is generally a lot more intense than in the UK. It's anecdotal but from my experience you meet a lot more punchy American fighters than Brits in relative terms as well as, obviously, purely numerical terms. The trade-off is that US fighters are often tougher, harder fighters but is it always worth it? I sometimes think there's something to be said for the body sparring and touch sparring that predominates in gyms like the Wincobank.

[man]

as i understand it people at the time had no doubt it was a
direct effect of boxing. his physician refused to give him a
pass for his last fight. there is a documentary out on this.

muhammad ali ran the first part of his career on speed,
reflexes and unheard of ring intelligence and the second one
on his unbelievable ability to absorb punishment.

[misterpunch]

good post well stated

[scallum]

I have asked a neurologist if a person who had never been hit in the head could have what Ali has and he said yes. With that said, realistically boxing had to cause what Ali has. I have been around boxing for 35 years and have seen too many boxers who started off as young amateurs who had 100 plus bouts go onto pro careers and now they are slurring their words and seem slower in how they act. As much as I love boxing and continue to coach, it is not healthy to get hit in the head, simple as that.
I recently wrote on the amateur forum about AIBA removing the headgear for national, world and Olympic boxing. I think part of it is to bring back fans but also they now have doctors saying they think headgear increases the chances for brain trauma and I can see that. When you wear a headgear, you are less likely to move your head and don't mind taking a jab or straight cross on the forehead but the brain is still getting jarred. The headgear also increases the size of the head making it a bigger target. Removing the headgear will hopefully force the boxer to learn to slip punches better to avoid getting hit thus lessening the trauma to the brain.

I tend to think we will unfortutely get more kids with brain damage without the headgear. Imagine those big tournaments where kids have to fight 4 times in 4 days with no headgr? I have fought with n without headgear I would have rather just stayed in the headgear ranks. No way im letting my kid fight the best of the best in major tournaments with no headgear if he has to fight more than 2 times per tournament

[HomicideHenry]

I have asked a neurologist if a person who had never been hit in the head could have what Ali has and he said yes. With that said, realistically boxing had to cause what Ali has. I have been around boxing for 35 years and have seen too many boxers who started off as young amateurs who had 100 plus bouts go onto pro careers and now they are slurring their words and seem slower in how they act. As much as I love boxing and continue to coach, it is not healthy to get hit in the head, simple as that.
I recently wrote on the amateur forum about AIBA removing the headgear for national, world and Olympic boxing. I think part of it is to bring back fans but also they now have doctors saying they think headgear increases the chances for brain trauma and I can see that. When you wear a headgear, you are less likely to move your head and don't mind taking a jab or straight cross on the forehead but the brain is still getting jarred. The headgear also increases the size of the head making it a bigger target. Removing the headgear will hopefully force the boxer to learn to slip punches better to avoid getting hit thus lessening the trauma to the brain.

Headgear was never meant to cushion blows one iota. Myself when I spar I perfer not to even have the open face designed headgear, cus it still instills into your mind a false sense of security. Headgear regardless cuts off side vision. All it takes is someone cute in the ring to take a step to the side and nail you with a hook, and you never see it coming. The punches you dont see hurt the most. All headgear was ever intended for was to prevent cuts and bruises. The day the amateurs allowed head gear and made a point system that only counts head shots, etc. is the day professional boxing went down the tubes.

[wvboxer]

Ali took some brutal punches in a handful of fights. Two Frazier fights, three Norton fights particularly the third, Foreman, Shavers, Holmes & Berbick. And he got hit in these fights in ways I don't see that often. Flush power punches. Over & over. I remember seeing the 3rd Norton fight when I was first getting into boxing & being shocked at the punishment he took. Most guys would go down but Ali kept taking it.

Then add in sparring! I wonder when his reflexes really started to go. Obviously he'd lost a lot during the layoff but he was still decent in the early 70's.

[polecateddy]

Another British boxer suffering badly now from Parkinson's or Puglistic Dementia is Howard Clarke. You might remember him losing to Fernando Vargas back in 1999. After that is became really just a journeyman on the British circuit, fitting in 70+ fights in the next 7/8 years. He's about 45 now, having retired from boxing in 2007. And he's in a really bad way! I've often wondered how many boxers do decide to call it a day purely because they can feel their mind starting to go. Perhaps they don't mention that so much in interviews. It stands to reason if a boxer say boxers from the age of 10 to 35, that's a solid 25 years of regularly taking punches to the head. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell you that is going to do some long-term damage.

[scallum]

There are thousands upon thousands of punches the general public doesn't see in sparring .Even punches that don't appear damaging could actually cause damage

[gilgamesh]

I don't know that Boxing is the cause of all of Ali's health issues now, but I'm sure it didn't help him.

Several people get Parkinsons for whatever reason, and most of them weren't fighters...so I don't know about that. I'm sure repeated blows to the head would help contribute to Alzheimer's or slurring of speech...things like that. Sadly it's just the risk these guys take.

For the record, when did Ali first start showing symptoms of Parkinsons?

[Syntax Error]

I don't know that Boxing is the cause of all of Ali's health issues now, but I'm sure it didn't help him.

Several people get Parkinsons for whatever reason, and most of them weren't fighters...so I don't know about that. I'm sure repeated blows to the head would help contribute to Alzheimer's or slurring of speech...things like that. Sadly it's just the risk these guys take.

For the record, when did Ali first start showing symptoms of Parkinsons?

It's hard to say exactly, but looking back at films etc, there is a change in Ali around about 1981.

I saw in interview he did with Michael Parkinson (who famously interviewed Ali in 1971 & 1974) & the change was shocking.

The life & sparkle had gone from his eyes & his speech was so much quieter that it had been previously.

Also it was also noted that he was taking Dopamine before fighting Holmes in 1980: why would he take such a drug then?

[polecateddy]

Really this thread should be re-named, 'Bears ...do they shit in the woods?' Lol

[SenorPipino]

A British neurologist said in 1980, before the Holmes fight, that the difference in Ali's speech from earlier years was staggering.
He had watched and listened to interviews with Ali in the 60s and 70s and said the speech deterioration was marked, suggesting brain damage at that time.