The Sullivan Era through 1900

[HomicideHenry]

Never see much emphasis on this truly wonderful era in which the sport we know today became the standard for pugilism. Seldom do I see people make attempts at ranking the era, or offer anything else to say than what's common knowledge that the Marquis of Queensbury became preeminent. It can be said with no doubt that two men are truly responsible for this transition, and it is not the drafter of the before mentioned rules, but John L. Sullivan and Richard Kyle Fox.

Sullivan is often depicted as the link between the bare knuckle and gloved eras, and the credit for dignifying gloved boxing generally falls into James J. Corbett's lap, but this is a myth in boxing. The Marquis of Queensbury rules were drafted and established in Great Britain in 1865, long before Sullivan even became a bricklayer, plumber, hod carrier, amateur ball player, as a youth. Boxing with gloves, with timed rounds, was considered 'sparring' to the general public and financial backers behind the scenes of the sporting world. It was purely for dandies. One could make a career, building up their records in such contests, but to be considered "the man" you had to defeat the top pugilist under London Prize Ring rules.

Sullivan almost single handedly changed this notion when he rose to the top of the American prize ring with a handful of fights to his credit, having no previous experience in boxing, which culminated with him kayoing then world champion Paddy Ryan in less than eight minutes. The irony in all this, is that Sullivan was considered by many to be the American, if not World, champion as early as the famous Flood fight on a barge in New York. No one rose to the top of the division as fast or as impressively as Sullivan. Only Mike Tyson comes close and he had almost three times as many fights as Sullivan did by the time he fought Trevor Berbick.

The problem, or issue, in Sullivan's time was that rankings systems simply did not exist. Every town or district had a boxing champion. Rankings were rather regionalised. Paddy Ryan and Mike McCoole, for instance, were not only the American/World champions, they were also announced as champions of the Erie Canal and Great Lakes, etc. as their reputations were originally built in those areas. Even today in the world of 'underground' bare knuckle fights, there are 'champions' of different counties in Ireland, England, Wales, etc. the man with the most 'titles' or who was given the blessing as champion by consensus of the public, was considered the champion most times.

Title claimants were a dime a dozen. John L. Sullivan, was the first man to truly seperate himself from all the rest. He did this by being the first athlete to take command of the railroad system, and the telegraph. Arranging events and dates months in advance, Sullivan, his backers, and his sparring partners traveled America from New York to Oregon, offering originally the sum of $500 to any man who could last four rounds with Sullivan (this was later raised to as much as a couple grand). When challengers were not willing, Sullivan and his troupe would put on exhibitions. Because of this grand 'Knock Out Tour', which brought in over $20,000 for Sullivan, his popularity exploded, but most importantly his dominance was proven stateside. Between tours he would defend his crown in 'official' bouts, and even these were made four rounders. Not because Sullivan was this limited, low conditioned, easy to gas, wild swinging drunk Irishman (which is probably the biggest myth in boxing) but because he was so confident in his abilities that he honestly didn't believe no man on earth could go four rounds with him, a statement that he proved time and again.

Richard Kyle Fox, editor of the National Police Gazette, was the first man to truly develope a rankings system determined by merit rather than by reputation. Because the Gazette was the chief newspaper syndicate in all of America, Fox had plenty of money to arrange matches between some of the greatest boxers, wrestlers, martial artists, weight lifters, and even barbers; awarding the winners with the Police Gazette Diamond Belt proclaiming them not only champion of America, but of the world, for Fox was the first man to arrange, schedule, promote, international sporting contests on a regular basis. If any man had the means, the way, to create a rankings system it was indeed Fox.

Why Sullivan and Fox would grow to hate eachother is another great mystery and myth in boxing; but the general idea that most agree on is that Fox trumpeted Sullivan as a great champion, went to great lengths to build Sullivan in the press, and one drunken night in a bar Sullivan snubbed Fox and from that point on Fox stopped at nothing, combing the ends of the earth, to find a man to defeat John L. Sullivan. Fox, getting emotionally involved in the process, got such men as Jem Mace and Tom Allen to help him find 'contenders'. Unfortunately for Mace, his protege 'The Maori Wonder' Herbert Slade, one of the most prodigous wrestlers in the world, was kayoed in two rounds by Sullivan. Fox managed to get former British champions Alf Greenfield and current kingpin Charlie Mitchell to fight Sullivan, but they too lost. Mitchell and Greenfield survived the four rounders by throwing themselves to the canvas whenever Sullivan rushed them, thereby winning the money on a technicality (but not the championship).

Sullivan also became the first man to influence arenas to have reciepts. As famous and beloved as he was, Sullivan was forgiven by the public who paid good money to see him rematch Charlie Mitchell in Madison Square Garden, when the champion showed up so blind drunk that there was no way he could have competed. Could you imagine Mayweather today pulling such a stunt and getting away with it and not get sued by a sporting arena or promotion or boxing organisation? Still, Sullivan was considered the greatest prize fighter in the world, and he proved it again and again with another American 'Knock Out Tour' and two 'World Knockout Tours' where he fought some of the best boxers in England, Wales, Ireland, Australia, etc. He also would defend his world championship against Charlie Mitchell for the last time in Chantilly, France dropping Mitchell over 30 times; again Mitchell began using the familiar 'rush/punch/drop' tactic that he did in their first fight, and when the weather conditions became so bad the match was declared a draw. Sullivan was furious and vowed to never fight under the London Prize Ring rules again, because 'nobody fights like a man' under those rules.

Sullivan also influenced the boxing game because he had a major impact on what sort of gloves to use in professional fights. He experimented with all kinds, and all sizes. Eventually he 'approved' a style of glove that was 6oz and is the standard style and design boxers use today. After hundreds of exhibitions and pro bouts, he would of had better knowledge and input on the safety of a fighters hands than any social aristocrat (like the Marquis who developed the rules). In 1885 Sullivan officially won the Marquis of Queensbury rules world championship when he battered Dominick McCafferey in Cincinnati, Ohio to win a unaminous decision, though he had been solely promoting these rules since he became champion (bare knuckle) several years before.

Richard Kyle Fox, though he was failing in his cause to find a proper challenger to Sullivan's title, was making a bundle arranging matches on the side to determine who the next man would be to fight Sullivan. He thought he finally found his man when he came across a Irish American man named Jake Kilrain whose prowess as a wrestler and boxer was such that he was undefeated for quite some time and was considered the champion of his state and region. Fox, who had criticized Sullivan for not fighting George Godfrey (one of the preeminent colored boxers of the time), felt he found the man to beat Sullivan when he arranged for Kilrain to fight Mitchell, and Kilrain won. Knowing full well that Sullivan was sickened unto death (Sullivan came down with a serious case of a stomach embolism) and figured the timing was right for the taking, he presented Kilrain the Gazette Diamond Championship belt and proclaimed him the true world's champion, on the basis that Sullivan could only get a draw against Mitchell (forgetting that Sullivan had beaten Mitchell previously on points).

Out of the woodwork came one of the unlikeliest of figures to bring the Great John L Sullivan back from the clutches of death and regain his status as the preeminent boxer, and that was William Muldoon, who just so happened to be the Police Gazette's Graeco-Roman and Mixed-Styles wrestling champion. In short order, Muldoon took a horribly sick, obese, alcoholic John L. Sullivan and made a complete 180. Sullivan was practically in prime physical condition, the same sort of conditioning he was in when he blasted out Paddy Ryan all those years ago. Also, Muldoon turned Sullivan into a fairly good wrestler as well to offset anything Kilrain could throw at him. The result? Sullivan beat Kilrain so badly in the first eight stanzas (under London Prize Ring rules) that Kilrain ran away, ducked, dodged, and threw himself to the canvas for the remainder of the match, which ended after two hours. What took the wind from Kilrain's sails was the final few rounds (which ended in brief seconds) in which Sullivan slammed Kilrain to the canvas, dropping his knees into Kilrain's chest, and in the following rounds landed tremendous rights and lefts to the jaw. Kilrain came out for round 76, but his handlers threw in the hat and called it quits, his head hanging down as if his neck were broken. Sullivan was then presented the Gazette Diamond Belt and Sullivan said most famously "I wouldnt put that around the neck of a god damned dog" and threw the belt on the ground. He was, again, without doubt the 'Champion of Champions' and swore that never again would he compete under the London Prize Ring rules, because 'had Kilrain fought me like a man' he would have kayoed him in the proceeding round after the eigth.

After that Sullivan wasn't interested in defending his title. He was more famous than ever, was being paid just as much money to appear on stage acting in plays and giving exhibitions, than he was for any prize fight and was travelling the world living the life of a celebrity. During the interim (three years) several men came out of the wood work challenging him. Most famous of these was 'The Black Prince' Peter Jackson, who proved his dominance when he came to America and defeated George Godfrey and several of Sullivan's past title defense opponents. Sullivan would defend the title, before leaving for Australia on another world tour, against old foe Paddy Ryan (for the third time) and was quoted as saying (when Jackson met him at the harbor and challenged him for the title) "I will never fight a Negro, but even if I did, I would kill him (Jackson)," and to the disappointment of onlookers, he went off to sea.

Sullivan's reception in Australia was less than spectacular, for the Australian press criticized him for not fighting Jackson, or for defending the belt against their champion Frank Slade. By the time Sullivan left Australia, he was beyond enraged and beyond hurt by the public consensus who was branding him a coward. Fact of the matter is, Sullivan was well over 300 pounds and was prematurely greying and was at the bottle again; he had gotten used to the cushy life of a celebrity. Training, the thought of fighting again for keeps, didn't appeal to him anymore. However, he had an idea in mind, where he felt nobody possibly could brand him a coward, and where he wouldn't have to fight either. He released in newspapers across the country he would be willing to fight ANYONE, whether that be Mitchell, Slade, Jackson, Corbett, etc. IF and only IF they could put up a side bet of $10,000 and if someone could arrange it to be a contest with a purse totalling $40,000. Unheard of money at the time.

James J. Corbett, an amateur boxing standout, who was gaining fame across the nation as the division's fastest and preeminent tactician with wins over Mitchell, Kilrain, and drawing with Jackson, managed to procure the funds. Sullivan, knowing full well he couldn't back out now, agreed to fight Corbett in this psuedo-Marquis of Queensbury match (pseudo because there were no set rounds, it would be to the finish, and the purse was winner take all, side bets included). Sullivan had half a year to train, but he only trained for three months, and he hardly put any effort into it. He was half convinced, that all he needed was to land a single blow on Corbett and he would knockout "the dude", as Sullivan called him. (A 'dude' in 19th century terms was the modern equivilant of a homosexual).

The event was a first in boxing history, where a series of matches were held, a 'Night of Champions' over the course of three days. Also at ringside were telegraphers to give round by round updates to newspapers across the country. It was indeed a first in the sports history, and the forerunner to modern boxing events. Sullivan was like a man stepping out from the Wild West into modern America, so to speak. The people in the audience, noted his girth and prematurely greying head, but ignored this. Sullivan was champion twelve years and was so beloved worldwide, nobody really gave Corbett a chance of winning this match, even with Sullivan in such bad shape. After fifteen rounds, Sullivan didn't even have the strength to raise his arms, he was gashed, bloody, and weazing for breathe. IT became apparent to those at ringside, that Sullivan then began charging at Corbett CHIN FIRST. Sullivan knew he couldnt win, and if he was going to lose, he was going out like a champion. It took Corbett several more rounds to finally kayo Sullivan. When the count was "TEN!" the arena went silent as a graveyard, the impossible had happened, and there was not a dry eye in the house.

However he did it, is anyone's guess, but Sullivan managed to get to his feet, grab hold of the top rope to balance himself, and addressed the crowd through his horribly swollen and bloody face, "If I had to lose, I am glad I lost to an American. Your friend, John L. Sullivan," and the crowd finally cheered. It was the last time Sullivan ever competed, and despite what historians have tried to rewrite, Corbett was NEVER forgiven for what he did to Sullivan, and he was never a popular champion. Until his dying day, Corbett would say of Sullivan, "Had I fought him when he was ten years younger, I don't believe I could have beaten him." Quite the statement, considering most people incorrectly believe Sullivan was just a wild swinging brawler and nothing more. Quite the contrary, Sullivan was quite the impressive counter puncher, feinter, and had tremendous speed with his hands and feet. Everything he learned in boxing, he learned the hardest of ways, on the job.

[Senya13]

It is probably not quite correct to call Fox the editor of NPG. William Harding and then Sam Austin were the main contributors of boxing write-ups.

[Cap]

Sullivan would fit right in today and probably win something or other in the wrasslin 'n kicking game of MMA.

Cap

[Boilermaker]

Henry, what do you know about the regional career of Paddy Ryan. My understanding is that Paddy Ryan won the world championship in his first LPR fight. I have often seen posters suggest this shows what a poor low quality era it was. But as you say, Gloved fighting was done in those days, it is just that it wasnt considered real prize fighting. I had always thought Ryan was an experienced Regional champion, but never read much on it. Certainly he wasnt a debutant as we know it.

By the way, i was just looking at boxrec. It is interesting that Joe Goss seemed to keep the world title even though he lost on points to William Miller. I presume that the title only changed hands on a KO! It is a very interesting era. If you consider that William Miller won this fight, then maybe Peter Jackson's Australian Title carries more weight than John L Sullivan's American title?

[HomicideHenry]

Sullivan would fit right in today and probably win something or other in the wrasslin 'n kicking game of MMA.

Cap

I dont know if Sullivan would have done mma, considering he had great disdain for the London Prize Ring rules, though it is those particular bouts he participated in that we remember him for. Wrestling, takedowns, etc. was something Sullivan was decent at doing, but striking was his passion and his forte; something that is not all that well preeminent in mma.

Henry, what do you know about the regional career of Paddy Ryan. My understanding is that Paddy Ryan won the world championship in his first LPR fight. I have often seen posters suggest this shows what a poor low quality era it was. But as you say, Gloved fighting was done in those days, it is just that it wasnt considered real prize fighting. I had always thought Ryan was an experienced Regional champion, but never read much on it. Certainly he wasnt a debutant as we know it.

By the way, i was just looking at boxrec. It is interesting that Joe Goss seemed to keep the world title even though he lost on points to William Miller. I presume that the title only changed hands on a KO! It is a very interesting era. If you consider that William Miller won this fight, then maybe Peter Jackson's Australian Title carries more weight than John L Sullivan's American title?

It is ironic you mention Goss, because it was the former champion whom Sullivan fought in an exhibition (prior to going professional) and beat him from pillar to post, as well as Mike Donovan. If Goss is indeed mentioned on BoxRec, you have to realise that the majority of his career was done under London Prize Ring rules, not the Marquis of Queensbury. What BoxRec would show is gloved records, so whatever version of a championship he held was not the same championship he held as world champion because the title only passed from man to man under London Prize Ring rules. As stated before, Marquis of Queensbury and gloves was considered child's play and sparring sessions, or amateur bouts, done strictly in exhibitions.

As for Paddy Ryan, his record is indeed incomplete. The records would make you think he won the championship in his pro debut, but this was not the case. He was the preeminent pugilist of the Erie Canal and Great Lakes region of America prior to winning the championship. Unfortunately these bouts went unrecorded, or were somehow lost forever to history. I imagine, somewhere in a box that hasnt seen the light of day in eighty years or better, or in some barn, etc. someone may own a book, or scrap of paper mentioning Ryan's early career and mention by name some of his opponents in that mysterious era in his life. From what I understand, like Mike McCoole before him, he was a boatman on the Canal and fought along the trading routes. So in reality he could have fought from Canada all the way to the Ohio River, possibly even down the Mississippi. He didn't come into contention as a mistake or as a lark or joke, or because he had backers, it was built on reputation and merit.

The era itself was not weak by any means. It makes you think that, in part, because when someone became a champion they finally saw so much money in their lives that they only fought maybe once, twice, or a handful of times after that and retired; often these matches were years apart. But prior to winning the titles, fighting was a way of life for alot of these men. It's just horribly tragic that people then didnt have the foresight to keep records of these peoples careers. However, at the same token, prize fighting was looked with the same sort of disdain as gambling and prostitution at the time; it was an activity that only brought around criminal elements. Nobody ever really considered pugilism to be a career choice, even when Sullivan became champion. It was a business nobody ever truly believed would garner respect, dignity or make such money that one would be comfortable and set for life. Sullivan was the first to break the mold, being the first athlete in any sport to make a million dollars in their career. Prior to all that, as I said before, boxing was a 'get rich quick' scheme in the minds of many, pocketing a few hundred here and there if you were one of the really good talents of the sport. Most made a dollar or two here and there. Ryan was indeed a good fighter, and horribly underated in some aspects; his downfall was getting rich off the championship by owning a series of pubs and getting used to being a celebrity and not fighting for several years when he finally met Sullivan.

[Boilermaker]

Thanks Henry. Were Ryan's fights in the Great Lakes and Canals Gloved fights or LPR fights though? I have definitely seen contemporary news reports listing Ryan as on debut when he won the title. I wonder whether those fights were either gloved or perhaps just out and out fightes rather than LPR? maybe some other set of rules, who knows?

[HomicideHenry]

Thanks Henry. Were Ryan's fights in the Great Lakes and Canals Gloved fights or LPR fights though? I have definitely seen contemporary news reports listing Ryan as on debut when he won the title. I wonder whether those fights were either gloved or perhaps just out and out fightes rather than LPR? maybe some other set of rules, who knows?

I do not know if Ryan had experience with the mitts in actual contests (he did use them in sparring), but his reputation was built on LPR rules. Consider the matches alot like a small organised affair, or standard rough and tumble altercations; a good example, though its a wrestling reference, is comparable to the young Abraham Lincoln being challenged by Bob Armstrong with a $5 side bet that he could throw Lincoln, and of course Lincoln wound up choke slamming Armstrong for the win. In Ryan's case, it was similar to that extent. Working up and down the Canals he encountered several tough bargemen, boaters, etc. who had fistic reputations of their own, and Ryan laid them all out. Organised contests for substantial purses ($100 or more) were rare in those days in such situations, so that could be a main factor in why Ryan's early career was not covered. However, if you do read up on Ryan he was indeed proclaimed as 'Champion of The World and of The Great Lakes and Erie Canal", which sounds strange indeed, unless you realise Ryan built his reputation there first; much like Mike McCoole did here in Ohio and Kentucky fighting on the barges.

[HomicideHenry]

I got to thinking on this more, and to elaborate on my point, I think the best example I can come up with is the very man who made John L. Sullivan into an overnight sensation and superstar here in America well before he became champion, and that was John Flood. Flood was known as the Bull's Head Terror, or the Terror of The Five Points, and was a well known enforcer for Harry Hill's establishment in New York, which was the mecca of sporting contests of the time. If you looked at the records alone, Flood seems to of had just one prizefight and that was with Sullivan, but that is not the case. Flood was considered the baddest man in all of New York state, having beaten numerous men in street fights and organised matches. These for the most part were done for honor or pride and reputation more so than money. The Sullivan bout, however, was for a big purse and was highly publicized, and therefore received much attention, more so than any other match in Flood's career, but make no mistake he was at the time New York's most feared heavyweight and was considered the man in line to defeat Ryan.

Another great example is that of Ireland's most famed boxer, Dan Donnelly, the records show he fought three times, George Taylor being the most famous of them having been champion of England. However, that isn't a clear picture, for Donelly was touted as the most dangerous man with fists in Dublin and had several street scraps, bar room brawls, fights on piers and harbors, etc. Today that sounds sort of ridiculous, cus street fighters are a dime a dozen, but therein lies the difference between today and then; most men of the 19th century and prior among fighting circles, professional or otherwise, all had a general knowledge and fitness to them that made them quite formidable. After all this was the day and age of the duel, and people everywhere lead hard lives. Donnelly just so happened to be the roughest and the toughest; and in three professional fights he proved he was not only in Ireland but in all the Isles when he knocked out Taylor.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

There's plenty of striking in MMA.

[HomicideHenry]

There's plenty of striking in MMA.

But it is not preeminent in mma. It is but a very small piece of an elaborate system that basically surrounds itself in and around submission wrestling in all its various forms. To prove the point, the greatest UFC champions were not strikers, they were of the juijitsu or graeco-roman style of wrestling: Dan Severn, Royce Gracie, Mark Coleman, Anderson Silva, Georges Saint Pierre, Randy Couture etc. Further proof of this, is how quickly Brock Lesnar climbed up the ladder in the UFC, and he was basically an NCAA wrestling phenom. His striking ability, at best, was average.

Further proof? Simple. Outside of the freak occurence of Ray Mercer kayoing Tim Silvia in 9 seconds, guys who are preeminently strikers (with the fists) have mediocre records in mma. Frans Botha, Butterbean, Shannon Briggs, Vince Phillips, Lovemore Nadou, Art Jimmerson, James Toney, etc. all have attempted mma and failed. Bob Fitzsimmons, one of the p4p greatest boxers ever, lost in mixed bouts. I guess you could say styles make fights, even in mma, Mercer was capable of kayoing Silvia because Silvia was also an mma striker; but dont forget the same Ray Mercer lost to Kimbo Slice, who is a rather limited and weak chinned mma fighter (who now ironically boxes) via choke out. Wrestling will always trump boxing in such situations.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

There's plenty of striking in MMA.

But it is not preeminent in mma. It is but a very small piece of an elaborate system that basically surrounds itself in and around submission wrestling in all its various forms. To prove the point, the greatest UFC champions were not strikers, they were of the juijitsu or graeco-roman style of wrestling: Dan Severn, Royce Gracie, Mark Coleman, Anderson Silva, Georges Saint Pierre, Randy Couture etc. Further proof of this, is how quickly Brock Lesnar climbed up the ladder in the UFC, and he was basically an NCAA wrestling phenom. His striking ability, at best, was average.

Further proof? Simple. Outside of the freak occurence of Ray Mercer kayoing Tim Silvia in 9 seconds, guys who are preeminently strikers (with the fists) have mediocre records in mma. Frans Botha, Butterbean, Shannon Briggs, Vince Phillips, Lovemore Nadou, Art Jimmerson, James Toney, etc. all have attempted mma and failed. Bob Fitzsimmons, one of the p4p greatest boxers ever, lost in mixed bouts. I guess you could say styles make fights, even in mma, Mercer was capable of kayoing Silvia because Silvia was also an mma striker; but dont forget the same Ray Mercer lost to Kimbo Slice, who is a rather limited and weak chinned mma fighter (who now ironically boxes) via choke out. Wrestling will always trump boxing in such situations.

[Boilermaker]

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article ... rchLimits=

There is a good article telling a little bit about guys like Yankee Sullivan, Paddy ryan, Ned O Baldwin and some of the others from the bareknuckle days.

[HomicideHenry]

There's plenty of striking in MMA.

But it is not preeminent in mma. It is but a very small piece of an elaborate system that basically surrounds itself in and around submission wrestling in all its various forms. To prove the point, the greatest UFC champions were not strikers, they were of the juijitsu or graeco-roman style of wrestling: Dan Severn, Royce Gracie, Mark Coleman, Anderson Silva, Georges Saint Pierre, Randy Couture etc. Further proof of this, is how quickly Brock Lesnar climbed up the ladder in the UFC, and he was basically an NCAA wrestling phenom. His striking ability, at best, was average.

Further proof? Simple. Outside of the freak occurence of Ray Mercer kayoing Tim Silvia in 9 seconds, guys who are preeminently strikers (with the fists) have mediocre records in mma. Frans Botha, Butterbean, Shannon Briggs, Vince Phillips, Lovemore Nadou, Art Jimmerson, James Toney, etc. all have attempted mma and failed. Bob Fitzsimmons, one of the p4p greatest boxers ever, lost in mixed bouts. I guess you could say styles make fights, even in mma, Mercer was capable of kayoing Silvia because Silvia was also an mma striker; but dont forget the same Ray Mercer lost to Kimbo Slice, who is a rather limited and weak chinned mma fighter (who now ironically boxes) via choke out. Wrestling will always trump boxing in such situations.

For a man who laughs you have no basis for your enthusiasm. You talk or imply or act as if MMA striking (with fists; not legs) is on the same level as boxing. Cite one example of an mma fighter (not kickboxing, savate, krav maga, etc) beating a professional boxer with punches alone. Even in the London Prize Ring rules era when upper body throws and holds were allowed, wrestling was not a main role in 'turning the tide' in a match. Else we would be seeing men such as Slade, Kilrain, etc. being the world bare knuckle boxing champions rather than Sullivan, Mace, etc. As I stated before, striking with fists is a very small portion of a vastly cold and systematic order in mma. What they call boxing is in fact 'dirty boxing' which sings more true to Wing Chun and Mau Thai than true Western Boxing that we are accustomed to.

[punchoutsb]

There's plenty of striking in MMA.

But it is not preeminent in mma. It is but a very small piece of an elaborate system that basically surrounds itself in and around submission wrestling in all its various forms. To prove the point, the greatest UFC champions were not strikers, they were of the juijitsu or graeco-roman style of wrestling: Dan Severn, Royce Gracie, Mark Coleman, Anderson Silva, Georges Saint Pierre, Randy Couture etc. Further proof of this, is how quickly Brock Lesnar climbed up the ladder in the UFC, and he was basically an NCAA wrestling phenom. His striking ability, at best, was average.

Further proof? Simple. Outside of the freak occurence of Ray Mercer kayoing Tim Silvia in 9 seconds, guys who are preeminently strikers (with the fists) have mediocre records in mma. Frans Botha, Butterbean, Shannon Briggs, Vince Phillips, Lovemore Nadou, Art Jimmerson, James Toney, etc. all have attempted mma and failed. Bob Fitzsimmons, one of the p4p greatest boxers ever, lost in mixed bouts. I guess you could say styles make fights, even in mma, Mercer was capable of kayoing Silvia because Silvia was also an mma striker; but dont forget the same Ray Mercer lost to Kimbo Slice, who is a rather limited and weak chinned mma fighter (who now ironically boxes) via choke out. Wrestling will always trump boxing in such situations.

Lesnar's striking ability was well below average.

Chuck Liddell, Rampage Jackson, Wanderlei Silva, Mirko Crocop were all strikers with legendary careers. There are a lot of good mid-level strikers as well.

As for Sullivan, with his training with Muldoon, love of fighting in general, and great striking, he'd have made a great mixed martial artist.

Also, Fedor and his brother Aleks were very good strikers...can't believe I forgot them!

[p4p1]

There's plenty of striking in MMA.

But it is not preeminent in mma. It is but a very small piece of an elaborate system that basically surrounds itself in and around submission wrestling in all its various forms. To prove the point, the greatest UFC champions were not strikers, they were of the juijitsu or graeco-roman style of wrestling: Dan Severn, Royce Gracie, Mark Coleman, Anderson Silva, Georges Saint Pierre, Randy Couture etc. Further proof of this, is how quickly Brock Lesnar climbed up the ladder in the UFC, and he was basically an NCAA wrestling phenom. His striking ability, at best, was average.

Further proof? Simple. Outside of the freak occurence of Ray Mercer kayoing Tim Silvia in 9 seconds, guys who are preeminently strikers (with the fists) have mediocre records in mma. Frans Botha, Butterbean, Shannon Briggs, Vince Phillips, Lovemore Nadou, Art Jimmerson, James Toney, etc. all have attempted mma and failed. Bob Fitzsimmons, one of the p4p greatest boxers ever, lost in mixed bouts. I guess you could say styles make fights, even in mma, Mercer was capable of kayoing Silvia because Silvia was also an mma striker; but dont forget the same Ray Mercer lost to Kimbo Slice, who is a rather limited and weak chinned mma fighter (who now ironically boxes) via choke out. Wrestling will always trump boxing in such situations.

Anderson Silva is a striker and a freakishly talented one, his wrestling is average but he makes up for it with very good boxing footwork. He is also the greatest fighter on the planet. Wrestling is so important in MMA because you can choose where the fight takes place but there are some very good strikers at the top of MMA.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

But it is not preeminent in mma. It is but a very small piece of an elaborate system that basically surrounds itself in and around submission wrestling in all its various forms. To prove the point, the greatest UFC champions were not strikers, they were of the juijitsu or graeco-roman style of wrestling: Dan Severn, Royce Gracie, Mark Coleman, Anderson Silva, Georges Saint Pierre, Randy Couture etc. Further proof of this, is how quickly Brock Lesnar climbed up the ladder in the UFC, and he was basically an NCAA wrestling phenom. His striking ability, at best, was average.

Further proof? Simple. Outside of the freak occurence of Ray Mercer kayoing Tim Silvia in 9 seconds, guys who are preeminently strikers (with the fists) have mediocre records in mma. Frans Botha, Butterbean, Shannon Briggs, Vince Phillips, Lovemore Nadou, Art Jimmerson, James Toney, etc. all have attempted mma and failed. Bob Fitzsimmons, one of the p4p greatest boxers ever, lost in mixed bouts. I guess you could say styles make fights, even in mma, Mercer was capable of kayoing Silvia because Silvia was also an mma striker; but dont forget the same Ray Mercer lost to Kimbo Slice, who is a rather limited and weak chinned mma fighter (who now ironically boxes) via choke out. Wrestling will always trump boxing in such situations.

For a man who laughs you have no basis for your enthusiasm. You talk or imply or act as if MMA striking (with fists; not legs) is on the same level as boxing. Cite one example of an mma fighter (not kickboxing, savate, krav maga, etc) beating a professional boxer with punches alone. Even in the London Prize Ring rules era when upper body throws and holds were allowed, wrestling was not a main role in 'turning the tide' in a match. Else we would be seeing men such as Slade, Kilrain, etc. being the world bare knuckle boxing champions rather than Sullivan, Mace, etc. As I stated before, striking with fists is a very small portion of a vastly cold and systematic order in mma. What they call boxing is in fact 'dirty boxing' which sings more true to Wing Chun and Mau Thai than true Western Boxing that we are accustomed to.

Your statement that I act like MMA striking is the same as Boxing is exactly why I don't engage you. You're the type of poster that invents things that aren't there. So I just laugh at your buffoonery and move on. You're talking like UFC 3 is right around the corner.

[HomicideHenry]

@ p4p1 & punchoutsb

I am not saying that there isn't great strikers in mma, I am stating that the system itself is more geared toward the various forms of submission wrestling. However, even a man like Andrei Arlovski who was very talented with his fists, was by no means world class at doing so. Neither is Anderson Silva; I am quite aware that Silva was a professional boxer at one point in his life, but the man he lost to prior to going into mma was average at best. That is all I am saying, what's doing in pro boxing is a universe apart in terms of skills and abilities (as far as fists are concerned) than anything an mma striker can do inside of a cage. To, again, prove my point the majority of the mma greats and HOF'ers have all came originally from a wrestling background: Randy Couture, Rampage Jackson, Georges Saint Pierre, Brock Lesnar, Mark Coleman, Royce Gracie, etc. IMHO, the only man today who reminds me of a professional boxer inside that cage is Frankie Edgar who does alot of circling, jabbing, crosses, etc. and he is world class.

@ Saadofthedeck

Again, you can offer no proof to the contrary of what I stated. When you, sir, can find me an example of a world class mixed martial artist defeating a world class boxer inside a ring or cage with his fists I will stand corrected. However, as far as my knowledge is concerned, there never has been a single case.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

What a moron.

[HomicideHenry]

And you're a troll

[SaadOffTheDeck]

And you're a troll

Actually, that would also be you. Trolling 101 is twisting around others words to try and suit your agenda. You're a master of that.