Joe Louis vs Jack Johnson

[zuru]

Joe Louis KO 11 Jack Johnson


what are your thoughts

Joe Louis would have violently K.O.ed the overrated Johnson.Johnson had his way with plodders.It didn't matter Jeffries was who he was,he was old,far past his prime,and again a plodder.Oh sure if you stood your ground,he would take your head off.But the slightest movement is enough to offset this,especially considering,advanced age,lack of conditioning etc.Joe Louis was one of THE GREATS.It may have taken him a couple of rounds to figure Johnson,but after that,Louis would be on him throwing deadly combinations,that most surely would have Johnson OUT by the 10th rd.(and that's being generous to Johnson)Johnson was big,long armed,and presumably tough,HOWEVER,he was far from the Great that many "experts"dream him to be.Many,Many fighters of the past,and present would have beaten Johnson,among them,Dempsey(don't buy that worn out "Dempsey was afraid,so he used skin color to avoid it"),Marciano,Cassisus Clay,Archie Moore,Frazier,and on & on,and yes even both Klitschkos Johnson just benefitted from being among the most agile of the big men of his time.The ones who were his equal,either beat him,OR were avoided.You don't believe me,look back at the film that is available on him,and TRUTHFULLY compare it to other fighters that I have mentioned.
zuru

In tapes Johnson is fast, quick handed, fight controller, and powerful. He rips Burn's head from shoulder to shoulder with uppercuts. Battered Burns and Jeffries into bloody pulps. Take in mind, though Jeffries was old and Burns was short and lighter, Johnson was over 30, no spring chicken himself. We don't have the benefit of seeing Johnson in his prime, but he is in no way overrated. To say Marciano, Moore, Frazier, and Ali beat him easliy shows your ignorance.

It is obvious that Ali, Louis, and even Tyson learned from Johnson. Louis wanted Johnson wanted Johnson in his corner, but to save his image Johnson was barred. Johnson also pointed out that Louis was susceptible to the overhand right, which Schmeling battered him with.

But back to the fight. A point that should be taken is that Louis was not a good infight adapter. When he had trouble with a fighter, he struggled with that fighter to the end. Johnson was a two pronged fighter. He could fight inside and box on the outside, and would have given Louis fits. I wouldn't agrue a close Louis decision, but no way does Louis, or any heavyweight in history for that matter, easily handle Johnson.

But, maybe those "experts" are wrong. Nat Fleischer, who called Johnson the greatest heavyweight ever, is nobody compared to Zuru.

Shliprock,
Calm down.Everyone gave their opinions,I gave mine.None of this is set in stone. I agree with theone,"Louis was so far advanced & skilled compared to ANYONE Johnson had faced".And I would hope that ANY heavyweight Champion fighting Any middleweight Champion,especially with those height & reach discrepancies,would be snapping their heads as if they were on swivels from side to side.Maybe,just maybe, Johnson WAS the best,in his era.But to place him in the company you do is absurd,to me.He may be high ranking in historical signifigance,but not overall greatness.And you have to remember,just about all of the old-timers,from fighters to trainers,to commentators always thought the old guys were better.I NEVER said ,nor thought that I was an expert,I was just giving my views.You're the one making the wise-ass remarks.If you have such a major crush on Johnson,maybe you could invent a time machine,go back to his era,and be his boyfriend.And as for ignorance,yeah,i'm ignorant like a fox.Don't include me with your arm-chair quarterback buddies,as you sit around drinking warm beer,stroking your egos,"commentating"on the pay-per-view fights that you chip in for.I don't fantasize about it,or give MY PERSONAL EXPERT view, and direct qoutes that I read,without ever having laced up a glove.So remember,this is just letters & words typed on a keyboard,nothing for you o get all worked up about,and start hyperventilating over.
zuru

[Sherlock]

Joe Louis would have violently K.O.ed the overrated Johnson.Johnson had his way with plodders.It didn't matter Jeffries was who he was,he was old,far past his prime,and again a plodder.Oh sure if you stood your ground,he would take your head off.But the slightest movement is enough to offset this,especially considering,advanced age,lack of conditioning etc.Joe Louis was one of THE GREATS.It may have taken him a couple of rounds to figure Johnson,but after that,Louis would be on him throwing deadly combinations,that most surely would have Johnson OUT by the 10th rd.(and that's being generous to Johnson)Johnson was big,long armed,and presumably tough,HOWEVER,he was far from the Great that many "experts"dream him to be.Many,Many fighters of the past,and present would have beaten Johnson,among them,Dempsey(don't buy that worn out "Dempsey was afraid,so he used skin color to avoid it"),Marciano,Cassisus Clay,Archie Moore,Frazier,and on & on,and yes even both Klitschkos Johnson just benefitted from being among the most agile of the big men of his time.The ones who were his equal,either beat him,OR were avoided.You don't believe me,look back at the film that is available on him,and TRUTHFULLY compare it to other fighters that I have mentioned.
zuru

In tapes Johnson is fast, quick handed, fight controller, and powerful. He rips Burn's head from shoulder to shoulder with uppercuts. Battered Burns and Jeffries into bloody pulps. Take in mind, though Jeffries was old and Burns was short and lighter, Johnson was over 30, no spring chicken himself. We don't have the benefit of seeing Johnson in his prime, but he is in no way overrated. To say Marciano, Moore, Frazier, and Ali beat him easliy shows your ignorance.

It is obvious that Ali, Louis, and even Tyson learned from Johnson. Louis wanted Johnson wanted Johnson in his corner, but to save his image Johnson was barred. Johnson also pointed out that Louis was susceptible to the overhand right, which Schmeling battered him with.

But back to the fight. A point that should be taken is that Louis was not a good infight adapter. When he had trouble with a fighter, he struggled with that fighter to the end. Johnson was a two pronged fighter. He could fight inside and box on the outside, and would have given Louis fits. I wouldn't agrue a close Louis decision, but no way does Louis, or any heavyweight in history for that matter, easily handle Johnson.

But, maybe those "experts" are wrong. Nat Fleischer, who called Johnson the greatest heavyweight ever, is nobody compared to Zuru.

Shliprock,
Calm down.Everyone gave their opinions,I gave mine.None of this is set in stone. I agree with theone,"Louis was so far advanced & skilled compared to ANYONE Johnson had faced".And I would hope that ANY heavyweight Champion fighting Any middleweight Champion,especially with those height & reach discrepancies,would be snapping their heads as if they were on swivels from side to side.Maybe,just maybe, Johnson WAS the best,in his era.But to place him in the company you do is absurd,to me.He may be high ranking in historical signifigance,but not overall greatness.And you have to remember,just about all of the old-timers,from fighters to trainers,to commentators always thought the old guys were better.I NEVER said ,nor thought that I was an expert,I was just giving my views.You're the one making the wise-ass remarks.If you have such a major crush on Johnson,maybe you could invent a time machine,go back to his era,and be his boyfriend.And as for ignorance,yeah,i'm ignorant like a fox.Don't include me with your arm-chair quarterback buddies,as you sit around drinking warm beer,stroking your egos,"commentating"on the pay-per-view fights that you chip in for.I don't fantasize about it,or give MY PERSONAL EXPERT view, and direct qoutes that I read,without ever having laced up a glove.So remember,this is just letters & words typed on a keyboard,nothing for you o get all worked up about,and start hyperventilating over.
zuru

I wasn't being a wise ass. You only stated in your post that Johnson was overrated, but never gave a reason. You didn't mention anything of his opponents, style or skill only he fought "plodders". If your going to make an agrument, at least support it with what you feel are facts to back it up.

I think Johnson was the greatest, and I'm not alone but am in a very small minority, but if anyone could beat him it would be Joe Louis. But I've given my reasons, Louis was not a very good infight adapter; Schmeling I and Conn I show that. Johnson was a dual fighter with many styles and could take a close decision in my opinion, which many here have predicted as well. But when it comes down to pure talent, nobody at heavyweight comes remotely close to Joe Louis.

And I am nostalgic of the past, I've seen a lot and read a lot and would love to have seen the ones that aren't only film in their prime. Find me a time machine and away I'll go. But just because they fought long ago and are not on film does not mean they should be left out of agruments or rated lower tha modern fighters. Jeffries and Langford could KO most all time greats and Corbett could outbox many too. I like learning about the olden fighters to find out how good they really were, instead of the same old "Ali was the greatest" and no one beats a "Tyson in 88" or "Ali in 67" bullshit over and over.

[theone]

"Ali was the greatest"

He certainly was.

no one beats a "Tyson in 88"

Prime Ali,Foreman,Holmes and maybe Frazier do. Nobody else.

[Ezzard]

ill say this, johnson doesnt have a good enough chin to surivive louis onslaught if louis catches him, in fact no one does.

i agree 100%

Well I suppose that depends upon the time left in the round etc... I'm not trying to dismiss Louis' finishing ability but Johnson was crafty. I cannot imagine anyone stopping him during his best years (just as you cannot imagine anyone surviving a Louis onslaught).

Louis had the handspeed and the power to get to Johnson and I don't think Joe's shuffling feet would be as much as a problem as it is when I imagine a match up with Ali but I still think Johnson can steal a decision.

[zuru]

Sherlock,
While we may not agree on several things,I do agree that it waxes old only hearing about prime Ali,or the best of Tyson.I too used to be a fan of the old days of boxing,not for some time however,just due to lack of time.But I also realize that a great many of, I guess the term "modern day" fighters,are very good.A fellow pointed out to me,that the greatness of those old time fighters(when in comparison to some of today's fighters,the old ones look ridiculous)was based on "during their day".I'm sure Johnson was a thing from the future back in his day.But to discount the quality of other heavyweights in comparison to him,based on his "historical" contribution as opposed to his actual overall skills,shows a bit of bias.That's O.K. though,as I am biased & make certain favorite selections with my heart,when my head is saying completely different.It's alright to disagree.Again just my opinion,
zuru

[The Great John L]

"Ali was the greatest"

He certainly was.

no one beats a "Tyson in 88"

Prime Ali,Foreman,Holmes and maybe Frazier do. Nobody else.

What about the more modern HW's like Klit brothers, Valuev or Rahman? You're talking about guys that fought 25, 30, 40(!) years ago. Remember, these guys now are bigger, stronger and better trained than those old guys. You don't think a Vietnam era tank would stand a chance against an Abrahms, so how could these guys from the 60's and 70's stand up to monsters like Klit and Valuev?

[theone]

so how could these guys from the 60's and 70's stand up to monsters like Klit and Valuev?

Easily. Fighters like Ali, Foreman and Holmes had the right balance of skill, and size. A fighter like Ezzard Charles had the neccasary skill but was not strong enough to compete with someone like Holmes. The Klit brothers are awesome physical specimans but do not seem to have the skill to beat a fighter like Holmes.

[dempseyfire]

"Ali was the greatest"

He certainly was.

no one beats a "Tyson in 88"

Prime Ali,Foreman,Holmes and maybe Frazier do. Nobody else.

and better trained than those old guys.?

Look at Klitschko-Sanders, Lewis-Briggs, Rahman-Ruiz etc. better trained? that's laughable.

A 38 yr old Ali wannabe named Larry Donald just beat Valuev in the eyes of many.

But he's "too much of a monster" for the real prime Ali . .

[Tantum]

Larry Donald basically is(well, was) Ali...

Without any balls.

[The Great John L]

"Ali was the greatest"

He certainly was.

no one beats a "Tyson in 88"

Prime Ali,Foreman,Holmes and maybe Frazier do. Nobody else.

and better trained than those old guys.?

Look at Klitschko-Sanders, Lewis-Briggs, Rahman-Ruiz etc. better trained? that's laughable.

A 38 yr old Ali wannabe named Larry Donald just beat Valuev in the eyes of many.

But he's "too much of a monster" for the real prime Ali . .

dempseyfire, I was being sarcastic using some of theone's very own logic to understand his opinions, which are usually inconsistent and illogical.

[Cojimar 1945]

Why would people think Johnson's chin coulden't stand up to Joe Louis? He was only stopped once in the prime of his career, in the 26th round against Jess Willard. The other ko/tko losses occurred when he was less than 23 years old and over 46.

[The Great John L]

Why would people think Johnson's chin coulden't stand up to Joe Louis? He was only stopped once in the prime of his career, in the 26th round against Jess Willard. The other ko/tko losses occurred when he was less than 23 years old and over 46.

I think the posters here are picturing JJ getting caught with a series of Louis punches, not just a single punch. And of course, it's unlikely that Louis, or anyone else for that matter, would have been able to hit JJ with a series of shots. Still, it's a tough matchup for both of them. I would give a slight edge to Johnson, although I think Louis would rank higher (slightly) in the all time HW list.

[BoxBuzz]

Yeah Tantum sometimes you make great sense here and then you make an Ali=Donald equation and your back in the crapper.

Anyways Louis beats Johnson more times than not. But they are both so damn good, on any given night it could go either way.

[Cojimar 1945]

It appears indisputable to me that the best athletes have generally gottten faster and stronger over the course of time. However, it has also been demonstrated that some fighters (sometimes when past their prime) can beat much younger fighters even when both are among the elite.

[Ezzard]

It appears indisputable to me that the best athletes have generally gottten faster and stronger over the course of time. However, it has also been demonstrated that some fighters (sometimes when past their prime) can beat much younger fighters even when both are among the elite.

This is to do with competition though. A great athlete is a great athlete. Put an old timer in with a present day mix and they would soon rise to the top.

[Grimm]

Why would people think Johnson's chin coulden't stand up to Joe Louis? He was only stopped once in the prime of his career, in the 26th round against Jess Willard. The other ko/tko losses occurred when he was less than 23 years old and over 46.

I don't think it has anything to do with Johnson's chin.

It's Louis' power that would be the reason for him getting KO'd.

[Ambling Alp]

Johnson-Louis is very difficult to call. Both were the dominant heavyweight of their day.
Johnson in his prime never fought anyone the caliber of Louis, and vice versa. (I'm not counting Johnson's fights with Langford, McVey and Jeanette because they were relatively inexperienced when Johnson fought them).
None of Johnson opponents were much like Louis and none of Louis' opponents were much like Johnson, so we don't know how they would react.
That their own styles differed substantially makes it even harder to decide.
It probably wouldn't be an exciting fight.
It would probably go down to if Louis would be able to catch Johnson with clean punches or not. Johnson had a good chin, but not a great chin and if Louis could catch him he would probably take him out.

Johnson couldn't afford to make a big mistake, but he usually didn't. I am going to go with him 3 out of 5 against Louis.

I rate Louis little higher on my all time list, and I do think that the "styles make fights" arguement is used a little too often. However, in this case, I am making an exception and lean toward Johnson.

[Syntax Error]

Johnson-Louis is very difficult to call. Both were the dominant heavyweight of their day.
Johnson in his prime never fought anyone the caliber of Louis, and vice versa. (I'm not counting Johnson's fights with Langford, McVey and Jeanette because they were relatively inexperienced when Johnson fought them).
None of Johnson opponents were much like Louis and none of Louis' opponents were much like Johnson, so we don't know how they would react.
That their own styles differed substantially makes it even harder to decide.
It probably wouldn't be an exciting fight.
It would probably go down to if Louis would be able to catch Johnson with clean punches or not. Johnson had a good chin, but not a great chin and if Louis could catch him he would probably take him out.

Johnson couldn't afford to make a big mistake, but he usually didn't. I am going to go with him 3 out of 5 against Louis.

I rate Louis little higher on my all time list, and I do think that the "styles make fights" arguement is used a little too often. However, in this case, I am making an exception and lean toward Johnson.

You're right about styles making fights.

I believe that Johnson would have been very difficult for Louis to beat. Louis did not like movers; check the 1st Conn & Walcott fights.

[KOJOE90]

I've read a piece on Joe's trainer Jack Blackburn who stated that Johnsons style was all round for Louis and Johnson may well have beaten his beloved fighter.

[Syntax Error]

I've read a piece on Joe's trainer Jack Blackburn who stated that Johnsons style was all round for Louis and Johnson may well have beaten his beloved fighter.

It wouldn't surprise me.

Johnson certainly knew in his mind that he could beat Joe.

He told Max Schmeling how to do it, when he was 58 years old!!!!

[KOJOE90]

Johnson certainly knew in his mind that he could beat Joe.

He told Max Schmeling how to do it, when he was 58 years old!!!!

I started a thread on this very subject.

http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23063

[theone]

Louis was way too much for Johnson. Out of respect for what he accomplished and all the shit he had to go through, Johnson is being overrated here. Never in his life did he have to fight someone as polished or skilled as Louis. Louis's short compact punches would rip Johnson to hell when Johnson tried to clinch, which he often did against the slower plodding fighters he often faced.
He would not have the physical strenght or punching power advantage he had over most of his opponents to keep them at bay. Louis fighting in Johnsons era would have been a nightmare come to life.

[Sherlock]

Louis was way too much for Johnson. Out of respect for what he accomplished and all the shit he had to go through, Johnson is being overrated here. Never in his life did he have to fight someone as polished or skilled as Louis. Louis's short compact punches would rip Johnson to hell when Johnson tried to clinch, which he often did against the slower plodding fighters he often faced.
He would not have the physical strenght or punching power advantage he had over most of his opponents to keep them at bay. Louis fighting in Johnsons era would have been a nightmare come to life.

And Louis never fought anyone with the skills of Johnson. Louis could very well beat Johnson, but it is in no way going to beat him easily or be too much for Johnson. As to Johnson not being strong enough, he was able to outmuscle 230 lb Jeffries, 215 pound Al Kaufman, and 230 lb Willard for 20 rounds. Inside I think he is stronger physically than Louis. Louis best chance would be on the outside. And not having the punching power, well he was no Joe Louis when it came to pure power, but Jack could take a guy out of there when he wanted to. He smacked around tough guys like Frank Moran, Jeffries, and Jim Flynn with his uppercuts, making their heads look like bobbleheads dolls. And Burns, Jeffries, and the majority of his opponents looked like they went through a meat grinder at the end, so he could hurt a guy as good as any fighter.

So, could Louis win. Yes.
Could Johnson win. Yes.
Would it be easy for either of them. A resounding hell no.

[Nile4000]

Jack Johnson edges Joe Louis over fifteen or whatever limit they go to, but he would have to be at his extreme best, Louis could take him out at any time.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

syntaz error wrote

You're right about styles making fights.

I believe that Johnson would have been very difficult for Louis to beat. Louis did not like movers; check the 1st Conn & Walcott fights.

louis was dehydrated when he fought conn because he felt he had to come in under 200 since conn was under 175. so louis dehrydrated himself to 199 and it hurt his preformance and louis fought one of the worst fights of his career.

- and louis fought walcott when louis was past his prime.