I've been watching boxing since I was 5, with Hearns/Hagler being my first real fight I saw (heck of a way to start off, huh?). Anyway, when I really started paying attention in the mid 90's when I was about 15, I noticed that a lot of fighters retire after 1 loss, or comeback after a layoff the retire after another quick loss. Examples:
Felix Trinidad lost to Hopkins, retired after pummelin Cherifi. He took a couple years off, came back, got jabbed to death by Winky, retired again.
Michael Spinks is the man who saved Marciano's record, goes 31-0 vs some very quality opponents (Holmes twice, late stages Gerry Cooney), gets dropped by Tyson in what seemed like 2 punches, retires.
Nasim Hamed is considered one of the best feahterweights ever, loses to Barrera, fights one more fight, retires and proceeds to put on 50 pounds (tubagoo)
Now, I will never question Hagler's heart, but at 34ish he fought Leonard to a 12 round decision loss, and the retired. Yes he had lost before and comeback, but he was gone for good then. I know that was a brutal fight and can empty the tank of even the strongest, but still...
Is losing such a mental defeat for some boxers because of the effort the sport takes to endure, or are many of these guys just weak-willed when you truly get to them. As I mentioned Spinks, I remember he had a "deer in the headlights" look during the Tyson fight. Was he scared to fight because mentally he was hurt or his style was exposed and he was now beatable and wanted to get out while it was good.
Or, do we just not give guys such as Glen Johnson (who will fight anyone anywhere even after getting duped on a couple of losses), or Leon Spinks, who fought an aged Ali very ealry in his career (around his 12th and 13th fights I believe), enough credit for taking the good with the bad and standing up to whoever is next. I mean Hopkins lost his first fight, could've easily quit, but didn't. He went on to have one of the greatest title runs ever. He also recently lost to Taylor (call it what you will, its still an L), and at 42 he couldn't get a rematch fast enough. I think you truly have to admire those guys that don't get out after a loss or when the gravy trains wheels have come off, such as Johnson, Hopkins, and Spinks, and appreciate the heart they have in comparison to a lot of fighters with 42-2, 36-1 high win % records.
Any opinions or ideas on why this is so, or feelings on my thoughts in general?
First Post/Longtime Fan - question about retirements...
Hagler retired not because of any beating he took from Leonard but bec uase of his belief that he was robbed by the politics of boxing. Trinadad I think just was exposed by Hopkins and thought he was burnt out , he takes time off comes back and fights Winky and reliezed he was still burnt out so he retires for good, Hamed was overrated and the first qualitry fighter he fights exposed him for what he was! Mike Spinks I dont know , I refuse to believe he was terrified of Tyson that night, it might of just been a case of he lost to a better man that night, he already accomplished all he need to accomplish and he was done with the sport he was in his 30's anyway. A lot of other fighters cant handle losing and they cant come back from it.
Re: this
U think?? I cant see Spinks being afraid of tyson after all the fights he has had. I mean afterall he was a professional boxer that had fought the best out there..I cant see Spinks being afraidwlvrne wrote:ShoeShine, maybe Spinks wasn't "terrified" of Tyson that night, but he was definitely afraid of him.
Re: First Post/Longtime Fan - question about retirements...
Hopkins is only 40 and I call it a win in my book.Mattyp151 wrote:I've been watching boxing since I was 5, with Hearns/Hagler being my first real fight I saw (heck of a way to start off, huh?). Anyway, when I really started paying attention in the mid 90's when I was about 15, I noticed that a lot of fighters retire after 1 loss, or comeback after a layoff the retire after another quick loss. Examples:
Felix Trinidad lost to Hopkins, retired after pummelin Cherifi. He took a couple years off, came back, got jabbed to death by Winky, retired again.
Michael Spinks is the man who saved Marciano's record, goes 31-0 vs some very quality opponents (Holmes twice, late stages Gerry Cooney), gets dropped by Tyson in what seemed like 2 punches, retires.
Nasim Hamed is considered one of the best feahterweights ever, loses to Barrera, fights one more fight, retires and proceeds to put on 50 pounds (tubagoo)
Now, I will never question Hagler's heart, but at 34ish he fought Leonard to a 12 round decision loss, and the retired. Yes he had lost before and comeback, but he was gone for good then. I know that was a brutal fight and can empty the tank of even the strongest, but still...
Is losing such a mental defeat for some boxers because of the effort the sport takes to endure, or are many of these guys just weak-willed when you truly get to them. As I mentioned Spinks, I remember he had a "deer in the headlights" look during the Tyson fight. Was he scared to fight because mentally he was hurt or his style was exposed and he was now beatable and wanted to get out while it was good.
Or, do we just not give guys such as Glen Johnson (who will fight anyone anywhere even after getting duped on a couple of losses), or Leon Spinks, who fought an aged Ali very ealry in his career (around his 12th and 13th fights I believe), enough credit for taking the good with the bad and standing up to whoever is next. I mean Hopkins lost his first fight, could've easily quit, but didn't. He went on to have one of the greatest title runs ever. He also recently lost to Taylor (call it what you will, its still an L), and at 42 he couldn't get a rematch fast enough. I think you truly have to admire those guys that don't get out after a loss or when the gravy trains wheels have come off, such as Johnson, Hopkins, and Spinks, and appreciate the heart they have in comparison to a lot of fighters with 42-2, 36-1 high win % records.
Any opinions or ideas on why this is so, or feelings on my thoughts in general?
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Rubio MHS
- Heavyweight
Re: First Post/Longtime Fan - question about retirements...
in trinidad and hamed's case, they were both frauds...Mattyp151 wrote:I've been watching boxing since I was 5, with Hearns/Hagler being my first real fight I saw (heck of a way to start off, huh?). Anyway, when I really started paying attention in the mid 90's when I was about 15, I noticed that a lot of fighters retire after 1 loss, or comeback after a layoff the retire after another quick loss. Examples:
Felix Trinidad lost to Hopkins, retired after pummelin Cherifi. He took a couple years off, came back, got jabbed to death by Winky, retired again.
Michael Spinks is the man who saved Marciano's record, goes 31-0 vs some very quality opponents (Holmes twice, late stages Gerry Cooney), gets dropped by Tyson in what seemed like 2 punches, retires.
Nasim Hamed is considered one of the best feahterweights ever, loses to Barrera, fights one more fight, retires and proceeds to put on 50 pounds (tubagoo)
Now, I will never question Hagler's heart, but at 34ish he fought Leonard to a 12 round decision loss, and the retired. Yes he had lost before and comeback, but he was gone for good then. I know that was a brutal fight and can empty the tank of even the strongest, but still...
Is losing such a mental defeat for some boxers because of the effort the sport takes to endure, or are many of these guys just weak-willed when you truly get to them. As I mentioned Spinks, I remember he had a "deer in the headlights" look during the Tyson fight. Was he scared to fight because mentally he was hurt or his style was exposed and he was now beatable and wanted to get out while it was good.
Or, do we just not give guys such as Glen Johnson (who will fight anyone anywhere even after getting duped on a couple of losses), or Leon Spinks, who fought an aged Ali very ealry in his career (around his 12th and 13th fights I believe), enough credit for taking the good with the bad and standing up to whoever is next. I mean Hopkins lost his first fight, could've easily quit, but didn't. He went on to have one of the greatest title runs ever. He also recently lost to Taylor (call it what you will, its still an L), and at 42 he couldn't get a rematch fast enough. I think you truly have to admire those guys that don't get out after a loss or when the gravy trains wheels have come off, such as Johnson, Hopkins, and Spinks, and appreciate the heart they have in comparison to a lot of fighters with 42-2, 36-1 high win % records.
Any opinions or ideas on why this is so, or feelings on my thoughts in general?
this
Are you guys telling me you wouldn't be afraid OF a guy whose biceps are as big as your neck? That was just one of the stats posted before the fight that I'm sure Spinks was aware of.ShoeShine wrote:I can agree with that.wsbuf wrote:Maybe not afraid but was weird to me. Seemed like he knew what the result would be. His mental state wasn't what is should have been. Afraid? maybe a little strong... but definetly not confident.
Now, I didn't say he was afraid to FIGHT him, but afraid OF him, I believe he was.
Re: this
Spinks knew he was gonna lose and only turned up for the money. Tyson fights were a license to print money no wonder guys like Spinks and Holmes couldn't wait to get KTFO.wlvrne wrote:Are you guys telling me you wouldn't be afraid OF a guy whose biceps are as big as your neck? That was just one of the stats posted before the fight that I'm sure Spinks was aware of.ShoeShine wrote:I can agree with that.wsbuf wrote:Maybe not afraid but was weird to me. Seemed like he knew what the result would be. His mental state wasn't what is should have been. Afraid? maybe a little strong... but definetly not confident.
Now, I didn't say he was afraid to FIGHT him, but afraid OF him, I believe he was.
Its funny bc they showed Spinks-Tyson on sports classics last night, Spinks received a whopping 13 million for that fight!! No wonder he retired after that. After further review ..I dont think Spinks was scared coming into the fight but he definanlty became a little cautious after tasting some of Mikes punches..and went into safety mode but of course that didnt work and pretty soon he was overwhelmed.
I refuse to believe a guy that moved up from LHeavy to heavy and beat Holmes twice, went to Montreal and won a gold and also beat Qawi who was an ex con and kinda scary at lightheavy and also was undefeated at the time just like Mike would be scared shitless of a fighter who although he had a lot of brutal KO's had not faced the caliber of a fighter as himself..I aint buying that.Exile wrote:It doesnt matter how many fights Spinks had had because fighting Tyson at that time was not just facing another fighter.
Spinks was scared sh*tless imo!
Re: this
Not too mention that Tyson was punching holes in his locker room wall prior to the fight. Spinks's Promoter witnessed this, and no doubt it got back to Spinks.wlvrne wrote:Are you guys telling me you wouldn't be afraid OF a guy whose biceps are as big as your neck? That was just one of the stats posted before the fight that I'm sure Spinks was aware of.
Now, I didn't say he was afraid to FIGHT him, but afraid OF him, I believe he was.
and yet thoughtful and somewhat relevant (to the BOTP forum)....who knew that something that seemingly started out on the right foot could grow to such...uh...um...proportions. However as I recall he was compelled by the "Galloway Chronicles" to make a career of "opining" here at BoxRec.
Anyway...this now gives me a the chance to send this gem to it's proper foruum for analysis and further review. Perhaps by studying it much can be learned and documented for posterity.
Anyway...this now gives me a the chance to send this gem to it's proper foruum for analysis and further review. Perhaps by studying it much can be learned and documented for posterity.
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BigJuicyHog
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 749
- Joined: 11 Oct 2005, 22:24
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Goodnight, Irene
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 9463
- Joined: 24 Sep 2007, 04:43
"...I refuse to believe he was terrified of Tyson that night, it might of just been a case of he lost to a better man that night, he already accomplished all he need to accomplish and he was done with the sport he was in his 30's anyway..." - SS
Take a close look at Spinks staring up at the referee after the second knockdown. Look carefully at his eyes. Spinning like pinwheels? No chance. He's clear-headed, but fear is etched into his face. Then he goes & pretends to stumble against the ropes (It was a preposterous attempt at feigning injury) in deciding not to beat the count.
Michael Spinks wasn't out of it. He just quit, because he was afraid. Not too afraid to collect his paycheque, just too afraid to make a go of it.
Take a close look at Spinks staring up at the referee after the second knockdown. Look carefully at his eyes. Spinning like pinwheels? No chance. He's clear-headed, but fear is etched into his face. Then he goes & pretends to stumble against the ropes (It was a preposterous attempt at feigning injury) in deciding not to beat the count.
Michael Spinks wasn't out of it. He just quit, because he was afraid. Not too afraid to collect his paycheque, just too afraid to make a go of it.
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I Feel Fine
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 2097
- Joined: 10 Apr 2007, 16:48
Not only was Spinks afraid of Tyson, he openly said that he was afraid of Tyson. I have a video of him saying it at a press conference.
Hagler, I think, was trying to make a point about what he saw as boxing politics coming in and stealing his title. He thought they took it from him, gave it to the more marketable fighter, and that they, by giving Leonard the win, were perhaps also trying to set up a big money rematch between the two. So, frustrated by what he saw as a raw deal, Hagler just moved on with his life. Perhaps if he had felt that he had legitimately lost he might have come back to try to avenge his loss? Either way, I don't think Hagler was afraid of avenging a loss, it was just the circumstances.
I agree that fighters should be respected for coming back from a loss. But that can be perverse, as in the case of Holyfield. His greatest strength, his resilience, has turned into his biggest weakness. There does come a point when enough is enough.
Hagler, I think, was trying to make a point about what he saw as boxing politics coming in and stealing his title. He thought they took it from him, gave it to the more marketable fighter, and that they, by giving Leonard the win, were perhaps also trying to set up a big money rematch between the two. So, frustrated by what he saw as a raw deal, Hagler just moved on with his life. Perhaps if he had felt that he had legitimately lost he might have come back to try to avenge his loss? Either way, I don't think Hagler was afraid of avenging a loss, it was just the circumstances.
I agree that fighters should be respected for coming back from a loss. But that can be perverse, as in the case of Holyfield. His greatest strength, his resilience, has turned into his biggest weakness. There does come a point when enough is enough.
That's exactly as I saw it at the time, and haven't changed my opinion since. Though he put up a better show than Bruce Seldon...Goodnight, Irene wrote:"...I refuse to believe he was terrified of Tyson that night, it might of just been a case of he lost to a better man that night, he already accomplished all he need to accomplish and he was done with the sport he was in his 30's anyway..." - SS
Take a close look at Spinks staring up at the referee after the second knockdown. Look carefully at his eyes. Spinning like pinwheels? No chance. He's clear-headed, but fear is etched into his face. Then he goes & pretends to stumble against the ropes (It was a preposterous attempt at feigning injury) in deciding not to beat the count.
Michael Spinks wasn't out of it. He just quit, because he was afraid. Not too afraid to collect his paycheque, just too afraid to make a go of it.
Sometimes there's no place to go.
Hagler wanted a rematch with Leonard. Without that rematch nothing he would have done afterwards would have meant anything to him.
Spinks never really wanted to campaign as a Heavy. He just wnated the big money. Holmes was old and that helped Spinks. Tyson was the only young natural heavy he ever fought. He didn't want to fight the giants.
Naz was weak minded IMO. He spent so much time telling everyone how great he was he then got beat up in a fight he was never in and was essentially emabarrassed.
Hagler wanted a rematch with Leonard. Without that rematch nothing he would have done afterwards would have meant anything to him.
Spinks never really wanted to campaign as a Heavy. He just wnated the big money. Holmes was old and that helped Spinks. Tyson was the only young natural heavy he ever fought. He didn't want to fight the giants.
Naz was weak minded IMO. He spent so much time telling everyone how great he was he then got beat up in a fight he was never in and was essentially emabarrassed.