BoxBuzz wrote:I don't know that I over rate Toney, but I bet all of you think I do.
Toney comes to win, he wins. Period.
I think he may be one of the most easily under estimated fighters ever.
On these forums, he's the most over estimated. Gifted decisions, PEDs.
Maybe, but just in case, I want you to treat yourself to an Irish coffee on me. Something to help that pesky hangover of yours. It's clearly affecting your judgment recently.
If Toney had stayed at 160 he would have been one of great Middleweight champions. He was excellent the night he beat Nunn. But then his eating disorder kicked in and he ate himself up…ate his way to defeat against Jones and just kept on eating…
The honest truth is that if Haye signed for this fight we’d all be criticising him for fighting a middleweight. And the idea that Haye will somehow be afraid of Toney’s power…nonsense… Haye has his shortcomings but he’s a clear favourite here. I appreciate Toney’s fans sticking by their man but really Haye would win this comfortably.
Ezzard wrote:If Toney had stayed at 160 he would have been one of great Middleweight champions. He was excellent the night he beat Nunn. But then his eating disorder kicked in and he ate himself up…ate his way to defeat against Jones and just kept on eating…
The honest truth is that if Haye signed for this fight we’d all be criticising him for fighting a middleweight. And the idea that Haye will somehow be afraid of Toney’s power…nonsense… Haye has his shortcomings but he’s a clear favourite here. I appreciate Toney’s fans sticking by their man but really Haye would win this comfortably.
Toney had power at CW. Just ask Jirov. And no one would've criticized Haye for signing to fight the Toney who'd just beaten Jirov.
Toney wouldn't have been a great middle. The Tiberi decision was horrible, and he barely scraped by Reggie Johnson. Good middle--yes. Great--no.
Ezzard wrote:If Toney had stayed at 160 he would have been one of great Middleweight champions. He was excellent the night he beat Nunn. But then his eating disorder kicked in and he ate himself up…ate his way to defeat against Jones and just kept on eating…
The honest truth is that if Haye signed for this fight we’d all be criticising him for fighting a middleweight. And the idea that Haye will somehow be afraid of Toney’s power…nonsense… Haye has his shortcomings but he’s a clear favourite here. I appreciate Toney’s fans sticking by their man but really Haye would win this comfortably.
Toney was better at 168, Tiberi spanked him and I had Johnson edging him too. Agreed that the Nunn come from behind win was excellent. I've never been a fan of Toney's and Haye could win the fight. The suggestions of Haye wearing down a man with superior stamina or stopping him are plain silly. I'd be cheering for Haye, don't think he would make me happy.
Ezzard wrote:If Toney had stayed at 160 he would have been one of great Middleweight champions. He was excellent the night he beat Nunn. But then his eating disorder kicked in and he ate himself up…ate his way to defeat against Jones and just kept on eating…
The honest truth is that if Haye signed for this fight we’d all be criticising him for fighting a middleweight. And the idea that Haye will somehow be afraid of Toney’s power…nonsense… Haye has his shortcomings but he’s a clear favourite here. I appreciate Toney’s fans sticking by their man but really Haye would win this comfortably.
Toney was better at 168, Tiberi spanked him and I had Johnson edging him too. Agreed that the Nunn come from behind win was excellent. I've never been a fan of Toney's and Haye could win the fight. The suggestions of Haye wearing down a man with superior stamina or stopping him are plain silly. I'd be cheering for Haye, don't think he would make me happy.
Agree with all that, except I thought Toney beat Johnson by a point.
Toney when in shape had very quick hands; I don't see this huge advantage in speed in the slightest (and I see Haye's speed get severely over-rated). Toney was often sluggish in his early cruiser days on ESPN (when he was really more of a fat cruiser) but when he got serious as against Washington and Jirov the difference was significant. I think too many people are thinking of the current Toney and not the Toney of 10-12 years ago.
I'd pick Toney all day and everyday. The shots to the body would take their toll and an exhausted Haye probably gets stopped in the late rounds.
Last edited by dempseyfire on 05 Mar 2013, 11:27, edited 1 time in total.
Haye is faster and hit's harder, but Toney is more accurate, and is better with his combinations and counters. And since, I doubt we'd be seeing the safety first version of Haye that we saw vs Klitschko and Valuev, it's pretty much a guarantee that Haye is going to be getting hit. And while I don't think Haye would be getting tagged too much in the first few rounds, when his offensive abilities would provide Toney with his sternest test, I believe by about the 4th or 5th, the master of the slip, block and roll, would start to find Haye's less than exceptional chin.
Ezzard wrote:Sorry, I just don’t see it. Too crafty to get blown away but Toney has little chance here.
X2, I don't think it's impossible that David could score a stoppage, not knocking him out cold, but toneys corner or the rf could intervene. To much speed and power
Haye is the naturally bigger man and certainly has a big edge in punching power as well as in foot speed. That said, Toney's chin was excellent and I don't see Haye stopping him, particularly with his excellent defense. As some have noted, there would actually be little difference in hand speed - Toney had the speed of a middleweight for his early CW career.
I can see Haye using his feet to take a close points decision, but I think it's more likely that Toney wears him down.
For the record, despite being only 5'10", I think even if Toney had been a healthy eater he would have eventually grown to be a solid light heavyweight.
So how is Haye outboxing Toney? Haye's style is to stand flatfooted and throw one and two-punch potshots and then move (but it's not like he's up on his toes dancing around).
Even at cruiser he was never a high volume puncher. He only throws occasional jabs. Toney will not be awed by Haye's power in the slightest, will throw more punches, and his counters will decrease David's activity rate even more as David would become hesistant to throw. The first 3 rounds or so would be competitive but Toney would be dominating the fight by the middle rounds. If anyone is getting stopped it's Haye.
A more competitive matchup is Jirov-Haye at cruiser.
dempseyfire wrote:So how is Haye outboxing Toney? Haye's style is to stand flatfooted and throw one and two-punch potshots and then move (but it's not like he's up on his toes dancing around).
Even at cruiser he was never a high volume puncher. He only throws occasional jabs. Toney will not be awed by Haye's power in the slightest, will throw more punches, and his counters will decrease David's activity rate even more as David would become hesistant to throw. The first 3 rounds or so would be competitive but Toney would be dominating the fight by the middle rounds. If anyone is getting stopped it's Haye.
A more competitive matchup is Jirov-Haye at cruiser.
Ezzard wrote:If Toney had stayed at 160 he would have been one of great Middleweight champions. He was excellent the night he beat Nunn. But then his eating disorder kicked in and he ate himself up…ate his way to defeat against Jones and just kept on eating…
The honest truth is that if Haye signed for this fight we’d all be criticising him for fighting a middleweight. And the idea that Haye will somehow be afraid of Toney’s power…nonsense… Haye has his shortcomings but he’s a clear favourite here. I appreciate Toney’s fans sticking by their man but really Haye would win this comfortably.
I tend to agree with Ezz and he sums it up quite well, for me. Styles makes fights and if we base the 'best' Toney was against Jirov, Jirov had the perfect style for Toney. Not sure Haye would as accommodating.
Ezzard wrote:If Toney had stayed at 160 he would have been one of great Middleweight champions. He was excellent the night he beat Nunn. But then his eating disorder kicked in and he ate himself up…ate his way to defeat against Jones and just kept on eating…
The honest truth is that if Haye signed for this fight we’d all be criticising him for fighting a middleweight. And the idea that Haye will somehow be afraid of Toney’s power…nonsense… Haye has his shortcomings but he’s a clear favourite here. I appreciate Toney’s fans sticking by their man but really Haye would win this comfortably.
I tend to agree with Ezz and he sums it up quite well, for me. Styles makes fights and if we base the 'best' Toney was against Jirov, Jirov had the perfect style for Toney. Not sure Haye would as accommodating.
Ezzard wrote:If Toney had stayed at 160 he would have been one of great Middleweight champions. He was excellent the night he beat Nunn. But then his eating disorder kicked in and he ate himself up…ate his way to defeat against Jones and just kept on eating…
The honest truth is that if Haye signed for this fight we’d all be criticising him for fighting a middleweight. And the idea that Haye will somehow be afraid of Toney’s power…nonsense… Haye has his shortcomings but he’s a clear favourite here. I appreciate Toney’s fans sticking by their man but really Haye would win this comfortably.
I tend to agree with Ezz and he sums it up quite well, for me. Styles makes fights and if we base the 'best' Toney was against Jirov, Jirov had the perfect style for Toney. Not sure Haye would as accommodating.
I'm quite sure Haye couldn't take what Toney put on Jirov. This is pretty startling to me. Everyone had Haye losing to Berbick, Page and Tubbs but he beats Toney? I find James a bit overrated myself, but this is a nightmare for Haye. He isn't walking down Toney and he wont hurt him.
dempseyfire wrote:So how is Haye outboxing Toney? Haye's style is to stand flatfooted and throw one and two-punch potshots and then move (but it's not like he's up on his toes dancing around).
Even at cruiser he was never a high volume puncher. He only throws occasional jabs. Toney will not be awed by Haye's power in the slightest, will throw more punches, and his counters will decrease David's activity rate even more as David would become hesistant to throw. The first 3 rounds or so would be competitive but Toney would be dominating the fight by the middle rounds. If anyone is getting stopped it's Haye.
A more competitive matchup is Jirov-Haye at cruiser.
I almost made a thread dedicated to Jirov-Haye. I would take Jirov by a late round stoppage in that one.
To reiterate the points I, and others like me have already made, Haye could not stop Toney. No one ever stopped Toney and he had big men landing big shots on him way after his prime was over. The only time I ever saw him in duress, and the only time he said he was in duress, was against Sam Peter.
