it pains me to say

[loaded_gloves]

This debate gets more and more depressing every time it's brought up. Can you imagine the heavy scene in 10 years' time? It'll be just a bunch of bloated semipros searching for a meal ticket that won't arrive while fighting twice a year against Zack Page types. Oh wait, that's what we have already, although somehow the 'top' guys are presumably earning enough to live on.

Whilst their fans cheerily accept their pedestrian career moves. "Oh he's only 32, he's still a baby."

There used to be a regular swarm of hungry 20 year olds coming up the ranks and making the men in their 30s and 40s obsolete. Now we have a bunch of lazy, out of shape indifferent guys boxing every now and then and waiting for a pair of predictable, ageing, one dimensional robots to get even older than they already are. And if they do get their shot the inevitably arrive under-developed and ill-equipped to perform at top level.

Can you imagine Tony Thompson, Marius Wach, Mormeck, Pricey or Fury being a factor in the division in 1990 with Bowe, Lewis, Moorer, Mercer, Ruddock, Morrison, McCall and Seldon coming through?

[lillywhite14]

But Dempsey had star power and crippling punch power. Can you point to a popular white American fighter who had a boring style?

Jerry Quarry, Gerry Cooney, Tommy Morrison - these guys packed a wallop and were very exciting. Quarry was handsome, totally fearless and would try take a man to hell.

There are no white American Chris Byrd, Jimmy Young, klitschko brother type heavies who were big box office.

In this current scene, Wlad would be a major US sports star if he were American. He has made a bit of a name of himself as a cross over star, dating actresses, appearing in music videos etc.

Those guys you listed were around the same time as genuine dominant world heavyweight champs. Wlad IS the genuine, dominant heavyweight champ. There is the difference. Dempsey was far more exciting but he dominated a piss weak era too.

[loaded_gloves]

Wlad would never be a major US boxing star. Neither you or I can name a white (or black) American heavyweight superstar who had such a deadly boring, safety-first style.

A style made all the more odious and offensive by the fact Wladimir, like his brother, is so much bigger than everyone. But still they cannot mix it up or beat up a guy with any kind of pulse. Vitali can't even knock a half-decent man down.

We know Corrie Sanders and Shannon Briggs weren't even durable in their prime in the 90s, and yet Vitali couldn't even floor 40 year old, grossly overweight semi-retired models of them.

These brothers with their dull efficient styles would never be US superstars.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

It doesn't matter what colour the dude is providing he's an American fighting in America. The second bit is a crucial as the first. PRIDE was the greatest fighting promotion there has ever been but few Americans/Brits took an interest. "Overseas" doesn't count.

I have to disagree with you there old chap, if there was a marketable, white heavyweight
with ko power - an American Tyson Fury, it would pull boxing up from its bootstraps, you
remember Gerry Cooney - he would have regenerated boxing single handedly in the 1980's
if he had beaten Holmes, he even had a private line with Bob Hope and Ronald Reagan ready
to congratulate him if he won - and this was in a time when Marvin Hagler was a dominant champion.

The reason I think UFC is so popular is that there are plenty of world class white fighters
plying their trade in that sport and that brings the punters in. What is keeping boxing afloat at this moment in time in America is the Hispanic demographic by all accounts. For boxing to re-emerge from
the slump in America are more American white fighters - I remember not long ago that Vlad was
heavyweight champion, Calazghe was light heavyweight champion and Pavlik was middleweight
champion which would have been a wet dream for a lot of American boxing fans back in the
1980s who dreamt of a white world heavyweight champion but it seems that you need more
than to be white.

[macaca]

I love Lennox, one of my favourites ever in all divisions for personal reasons, but Lennox was beating beaten when the Klit fight was stopped, he didn't have a very dangerous rematch and retired with complete grace, I think a rematch would have been very very interesting back in the day ....

Further to this, if we think the division is is a mess now, imagine the mess and hype thinking anyone gives a shit when eventually, hopefully some lucky guy takes the belt from a Klit or god forbid they vacate and it becomes a real prize fighter non paper title ....

[loaded_gloves]

I would challenge the idea that Lennox was being 'beaten.' Vitali had shot his load and failed to get a fat, rusty Lennox out of there. After six rounds Vitali staggered back to his stool looking utterly exhausted and drenched in his own gore. People do seem to have selective memory when recalling the moment when the bell went after six.

Lennox was tired, but we know Lennox will gut it out in a hard, exhausting fight - Mercer, Mavrovic, Holyfield II. We know he won't quit despite being impaired by injury - Tucker. He's going to continue fighting, particularly in the face of such a terribly injured opponent. Vitali was fading and we know he has it in him to quit on his stool.

Those gashes and the doctor's stoppage were the best things to ever happen to Vitali.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

I would challenge the idea that Lennox was being 'beaten.' Vitali had shot his load and failed to get a fat, rusty Lennox out of there. After six rounds Vitali staggered back to his stool looking utterly exhausted and drenched in his own gore. People do seem to have selective memory when recalling the moment when the bell went after six.

Lennox was tired, but we know Lennox will gut it out in a hard, exhausting fight - Mercer, Mavrovic, Holyfield II. We know he won't quit despite being impaired by injury - Tucker. He's going to continue fighting, particularly in the face of such a terribly injured opponent. Vitali was fading and we know he has it in him to quit on his stool.

Those gashes and the doctor's stoppage were the best things to ever happen to Vitali.

I agree, I think Vitali would have been stopped a round or two later, he fought well but he took
a proper hiding that night off Lennox.

[JC]

I would challenge the idea that Lennox was being 'beaten.' Vitali had shot his load and failed to get a fat, rusty Lennox out of there. After six rounds Vitali staggered back to his stool looking utterly exhausted and drenched in his own gore. People do seem to have selective memory when recalling the moment when the bell went after six.

Lennox was tired, but we know Lennox will gut it out in a hard, exhausting fight - Mercer, Mavrovic, Holyfield II. We know he won't quit despite being impaired by injury - Tucker. He's going to continue fighting, particularly in the face of such a terribly injured opponent. Vitali was fading and we know he has it in him to quit on his stool.

Those gashes and the doctor's stoppage were the best things to ever happen to Vitali.

I agree, I think Vitali would have been stopped a round or two later, he fought well but he took
a proper hiding that night off Lennox.

I've always preferred that interpretation as I'm a massive Lewis fan, but I think saying the cut saved Vitali from getting KO'd is wishful thinking.

When it was stopped the fight was pretty much on a knife edge. Lewis really didn't look like he had another 5 rounds in him and he'd already thrown the kitchen sink at Vitali looking for a KO and hadn't managed to buckle his legs at any point. That said at the end of the sixth Vitali had finally started to hold-on and was looking tired himself. Too close to call IMO.

An in shape Lewis would have beaten Vitali in my opinion.

[Bard of Boxrec]

I would challenge the idea that Lennox was being 'beaten.' Vitali had shot his load and failed to get a fat, rusty Lennox out of there. After six rounds Vitali staggered back to his stool looking utterly exhausted and drenched in his own gore. People do seem to have selective memory when recalling the moment when the bell went after six.

Lennox was tired, but we know Lennox will gut it out in a hard, exhausting fight - Mercer, Mavrovic, Holyfield II. We know he won't quit despite being impaired by injury - Tucker. He's going to continue fighting, particularly in the face of such a terribly injured opponent. Vitali was fading and we know he has it in him to quit on his stool.

Those gashes and the doctor's stoppage were the best things to ever happen to Vitali.

That fight not continuing was the most frustrating thing ever in boxing in my opinion. Being denied the chance to see Lennox laying out Vitali in brutal fashion will haunt me forever.

[loaded_gloves]

That fight not continuing was the most frustrating thing ever in boxing in my opinion. Being denied the chance to see Lennox laying out Vitali in brutal fashion will haunt me forever.

I agree. If the doctor was a true boxing fan and had known that Vitali would go on to cuff around a long line of inept obese degenerates whilst being elevated to God status by a race of white cyber trolls, then he would have surely let the fight continue and have Lennox ruin Vitali forever.

[Quixall]

sorry guys
it is more about styles, and the death of the fluid american style prevalent up to and including Lennox Lewis (who adopted through his training in Canada and the US)

since then

upright robots, shuffle forward back, with a couple of jabs followed by something else.
If they wasn't brothers!!! please stop!

zzzzzzz


We need different styles to make exciting fights

not the dross currently prevalent in the heavyweight division.

When a british or more importantly a US fan gets excited about a HW prospect these days, it is more in hope than expectation. and I say this as a fan, we need good REAL prospects brought up in the rarified atmosphere of an ols school of ringcraft.

tata

I agree with this mate

[Quixall]

Dixonian,

Loaded gloves has answered you on my behalf with regards to the fighters mentioned getting past Wlad's jab. You really have to judge Wlad on who he has fought and in the grand scheme of things it's fornicating no-one lol. Fighters like Tillis, Page, Berbick, Thomas, witherspoon, when in their prime years would have dealt with Wlad quite comfortably. There is simply no-one around to expose both the brothers to what what they really are, which is big awkward strong heavyweights. That's it.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Would Wlad have been able to weather a full bloodied Ernie Shavers barrage? maybe

Maybe?

MAYBE?

Wladimir Klitschko's head versus Earnie Shavers fist? Can a plate of jelly survive a swing from a baseball bat? Or a shotgun blast?

Let's not get carried away here. Shavers could be beaten, sure he could punch, but would he have been able to land on Wlad.

Wlad and Vitali get too little respect in my opinion. Boring, but very effective.

[Dixonian]

Who has Wlad outjabbed that made him the great jabber?

Seriously, one great jabber he has outjabbed. Just name one.

Outjabbing an endless string of defeatist, passive, out of shape men doth not a great jabber make.

Trevor Berbick solved more difficult problems against Pinklon Thomas and Greg Page - and both guys had steel chins too. Hot and cold fighter undoubtably, but when he was in the mood he was beastly. Work rate, chin, power, physical fitness, awkward style, cunning, totally fearless. He's a world apart from anyone Wlad has defeated in his current reign.

[/quote]

I have a lot of respect for Thomas but please he does not have the athleticism, speed or power of Wlad. I just reviewed the beginning of the Berbick-Thomas fight to double check. Berbick plods forward and jumps in with a wide double hooks twice early. There's no jab coming back from Thomas, he's happy to let him throw those shots. What would Wlad do against those ponderous attacks? Bam, stick the jab in the face and step out of range. Over. And over. And over. Berbick was slow, offered limited head movement and would have been just another bum for Wlad to demoralise and deteriorate in a boring manner.

In my humble opinion.

[Bard of Boxrec]

would he have been able to land on Wlad.

Umm, whaaaaat?????

Even if we're talking only the uber-cautious version of Wlad, David fricken Haye landed on him. Hard right hands in the third and twelfth rounds that were arguably the best single shots of the fight. Meanwhile Earnie has landed hulking, hurtful shots on all-time greats, legends of heavyweight, Ali, Holmes. don't tell me about the size and reach thing, Shavers would have dismantled Wlad. The guy just can't stand up to heavy fire at all.

[loaded_gloves]

...And Wladimir is somehow impervious to wide hooks?

A grossly overweight, heavily gassed Samuel Peter downed Wladimir three times with some of the widest, clumsiest swinging I have ever seen in a high profile heavyweight fight. Lamom Brewster got to him with wild, telegraphed shots.

You sound like a young fan who has grown up in a Klitschko era, and as such is happy to skim a Boxrec record or glimpse a few minutes of YouTube in order to to assess and dismiss a fighter of the past. It's a silly and unsound way to judge anything.

When he was on Berbick was far physically fitter, more aggressive and worked harder than a Sam Peter or Ross Puritty, the latter of whom had a disastrous skillset for Wladimir. Dismissing Berbick on the Thomas fight, of which you have only bothered to watch a round of, makes your opinion redundant.

[loaded_gloves]

would he have been able to land on Wlad.

Umm, whaaaaat?????

I know, I know. Shavers was able to land on fast, fluid, moving targets like Larry Holmes, Jimmy Young and Jimmy Ellis. He landed on the towering, defensive-minded and very durable Tiger Williams and KOd him. But the tough, dynamic Wladimir Klitschko will somehow evade him. For 12 rounds...

[loaded_gloves]

Berbick was slow, offered limited head movement and would have been just another bum for Wlad to demoralise and deteriorate in a boring manner.

In my humble opinion.

Also, this remark really pisses me off and displays your ignorance.

A peak Larry Holmes - a greater jabber and mover than Wladimir Klitschko will ever be - wasn't able to 'demoralise' or 'deteriorate' Trevor Berbick with his jabbing and moving. In fact Berbick was still trying to take Holmes' head off right up to the end of 15 gruelling rounds.

What's Wladimir's record in fights where there is a high punch output and things could be described as 'gruelling'?

These men are a whole different level to Wladimir Klitschko.

[si7dog7]

Sorry I should explain why I quoted Shavers:

look at who he finished inside the distance:

Bugner (not many did that although very early eighties)
Ken Norton
Jimmy Ellis

now Shavers had a padded record I know, but he was and is still to this day regarded as a murderous puncher and he was dodged by many fighters.

If he clumped Wlad K,.........Timber!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and forget about a prime Tyson......

I cannot understand how I have read over the past few days, of people actually putting either of these guys in the All Time top 20 of Heavyweights.

I truly respect their class in behaviour and acknowledge they have beaten those in front of them. They are nice guys and I salute them, but as a FAN........

some people need to open their eyes...the fact is if you look at their records - How many of their victims are "Hall of fame" material. Indeed, how many of those that have beaten them can claim that......Only Lewis I'm afraid. Not their fault, no competition and no promotion that allows it.

Klitschko legacy not top 20 All time HW - Case closed

And when they are gone the situation is going to get worse. At least, being good at what they do they have cleaned up a poor, poor division. Wach as the new champion...OMG!!!! save us!!!!!

It wouldn't surprise me - AND THIS IS JUST AN IDEA- that the Klits will lose to another German promoted fighter before retirement - just so the titles remain annexed over there - For the love of whatever - NOOOOOOO!! hopefully just my own personal nightmare

US heavyweights - The boxing world needs you.
UK heavyweights- see above but get more mobile and learn how to move laterally.

tata

[Dixonian]

Styles make fights. The Wladimir that fought Peter and Brewster is a different fighter to today's Wladimir. At that stage sure Berbick would probably have finished him (I think the rematch with Peter - where Peter turned up in shape and swinging - showed that transformation). The fact that Holmes struggled with Berbick is a case of styles make fights. Holmes's style wasn't to pin someone on a jab and a straight right all night, he'd fight inside and out. And have more exciting fights as a result.

[Dixonian]

For the record I grew up pre-Klitschko and I'm not a Klitschko fanboy. I just objectively assess fighter's attributes. It would be far more instinctive for me to say that "they ain't as good as they used to be." Indeed that's what I used to say but I've been viewing quite a lot of old heavy fights lately and thus it's led me to theorising about possible cross-era match-ups. Cos I'm sad like that. But I don't claim to be correct.

[loaded_gloves]

Styles make fights. The Wladimir that fought Peter and Brewster is a different fighter to today's Wladimir. At that stage sure Berbick would probably have finished him (I think the rematch with Peter - where Peter turned up in shape and swinging - showed that transformation). The fact that Holmes struggled with Berbick is a case of styles make fights. Holmes's style wasn't to pin someone on a jab and a straight right all night, he'd fight inside and out. And have more exciting fights as a result.

See I don't buy into this 'new, different' Wladimir - the first Sam Peter fight in 2005 featured his new safety-first style but Peter, despite his diabolical physical condition, marched aggressively after him trying to decap him - and thus despite his huffing & puffing had Wlad once again teetering on the brink of exhaustion! At the hands of a man as fat as Peter!

Since the first Peter fight, who has Wlad fought who was genuinely challenging him, pressing the action, taking his shots and hitting him back hard? Nobody. Go through his record since, opponent by opponent. No one!

Only Ibragimov and Haye had some knowhow, but neither of them wanted to fight and went 12 at a pace a 45 year old Holmes or Foreman could've easily managed.

I have no doubt a fit fighter, or even a fat one who was aggressive and with some level of ability and decent durability, would have an exhausted, terrified Wlad back in his familiar position quivering on the canvas.

[danconnollyeire]

AN extremely aggressive Haye beats Wlad. He has the speed and power most definitely. And the skill to land a shot. I though he'd do taht in their fight (after all the talk) but it turns out he hasn't got the mentality. Great fighters can change their style and adapt. If he thought less like himself and more like Tyson, he would've knocked Wlad out

[loaded_gloves]

Exactly, Haye has the skillset to KO Wlad but not the toughness. And, given his fragility, if he really pushed the issue he could've got KOd himself.

With Haye's low workrate, fear of gassing or getting hit, it's difficult to imagine him surviving in previous eras where the top 10 was littered with tough guys with solid chins, good power and an aggressive manner. So the 90s, 80s, 70s, 60s, 50s, 40s......

[JC]

AN extremely aggressive Haye beats Wlad. He has the speed and power most definitely. And the skill to land a shot. I though he'd do taht in their fight (after all the talk) but it turns out he hasn't got the mentality. Great fighters can change their style and adapt. If he thought less like himself and more like Tyson, he would've knocked Wlad out

Ironic you mention Tyson in that sentence as he's a perfect example of a great fighter who couldn't adapt his style.

An extremely aggressive Haye get's knocked out vs Wlad in my opinion.