Heavyweight Journeymen

[Superheavy]

The recent post on Danny Williams prompted the observation that there doesn't seem to be a great number of HW journeymen about. The great, celebrated journeymen of our time tend to operate in the lower weight classes. My question is why?

Perhaps the explanation is obvious - that HW stoppages tend to involve concussive punches from very large men and there's a limit on how much of this a guy can take. But are there other reasons? A simple lack of numbers in the heavyweight division? A lack of dedication on the part of heavyweights who don't quite make the grade? Stricter treatment of heavyweights with losing records by the licencing authorities?

Of course we have the Hastings Rasanis of this world - who are the other respected HW journeymen out there?

[mickey1975]

Zack Page.

[danconnollyeire]

The recent post on Danny Williams prompted the observation that there doesn't seem to be a great number of HW journeymen about. The great, celebrated journeymen of our time tend to operate in the lower weight classes. My question is why?

Perhaps the explanation is obvious - that HW stoppages tend to involve concussive punches from very large men and there's a limit on how much of this a guy can take. But are there other reasons? A simple lack of numbers in the heavyweight division? A lack of dedication on the part of heavyweights who don't quite make the grade? Stricter treatment of heavyweights with losing records by the licencing authorities?

Of course we have the Hastings Rasanis of this world - who are the other respected HW journeymen out there?

I think you've sumed it up. Do you want to be a defensive journeyman who has 7ft giants at 17/18 stone pounding you for too long?

Zack Page does it well. He very rarely gets hit (he's very fit/athletic/and basically a cruiser) but doesn't hit the other guy as well.

[danconnollyeire]

Zack Page.

HA you got there first

[loaded_gloves]

Are modern heavyweights ever in shape? The only three I can of are the Klit brothers and Haye, and even those three are lugging around a lot of artificial mass.

[Coco]

Don't forget Shrek

[milpool]

Oh how I yearn for the days of the old American journeyman heavyweight.

Steve Zouzki, Mike Jameson, Charles Hostetter, Tom Trimm, David Jaco, Cecil Coffee...the list goes on!
You see some clips of these guys and they really gave it a go. Mike Jameson got properly done by Frank Bruno in two but he was a big obstacle for Mike Tyson, and Steve Zouski's face was always beaten to a pulp but he'd never go down without a fight which is more than could be said for these fat Latvians that we bring over these days who go down after a bit of a tickle.

There were others who morphed into journeymen ala Danny Williams. Greg Page, James Tillis, Jesse Ferguson, Tyrell Biggs and even Leon Spinks became 'opponents' in the latter stages of their careers.

As for British journeymen, we had Al Malcolm, Steve Garber, Tony Booth, Noel Quarless, Carl Gaffney and so on...

I would suspect that the reason for less of them these days, as has already been mentioned, is a mixture of the heavyweights being heavier, and therefore being a heavyweight journeyman is a lot more dangerous than it used to be, as well as the general decline in heavyweight boxing. Damn shame if you ask me.

[danconnollyeire]

Lee Swaby

[SamWise72]

There were others who morphed into journeymen ala Danny Williams. Greg Page, James Tillis, Jesse Ferguson, Tyrell Biggs and even Leon Spinks became 'opponents' in the latter stages of their careers.

I love the "even" Leon Spinks. Page, Tillis, Biggs were all better prime for prime, and arguably Williams and the always underrated Ferguson.

[loaded_gloves]

I would suspect that the reason for less of them these days, as has already been mentioned, is a mixture of the heavyweights being heavier, and therefore being a heavyweight journeyman is a lot more dangerous than it used to be.

This doesn't compute at all.

There just isn't that many boxers as there used to be, and the talent pools are thus nowhere near as deep. All these previous golden generations were made by men who had grown up with boxing being a high profile sport broadcast on free national television.

Anyone 20 or 21 right now did not grow up with boxing as a high profile sport on free national television. They grew up in an era when greedy old men took boxing and put it on subscription TV and costly PPV and now we're all feeling the effects of their short-sighted, money-hungry ways.

[Old bones Ian]

Ahhhhhhhh Bobby Crabtree, now he was a hit or be hit journeyman. He used to get KO'd alot whenever he stepped up, then go back to the deep south and get a few early KO wins against tomato cans, then step back up to get KO'd again. But he used to take his lumps, and he even scored a couple of upset wins.

[loaded_gloves]

Crabtree was a game fella and looked to hit hard. You had to put him down, he wouldn't lay down for anyone. Levi Billups, there was a seriously hard nut. Strong, awkward and very willing.

Bigfoot Martin was the king of durable journeyman, not a defensive genius, just a head like a brick. Got stopped once or twice on body shots (Bonecrusher, Damiani) and another on a cut (Bowe) but generally he was going to be there all night laughing at your hardest punches.

[jonnyyorkshu]

Cisse Salif used to be a good un.Also M Harris,Darnell Wilson,Dom Guinn.But Zack Page has to be the ultimo workout.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

There were a lot of journeymen from the 1980's who were good solid heavyweight journeymen - Andy Gerrard from Risca, Al Malcolm from Birmingham, Michael Murray from Manchester of course. They are the ones who I can think of from the top of my head. They fought everybody and went everywhere to fight.

[Karl Jade]

Are modern heavyweights ever in shape? The only three I can of are the Klit brothers and Haye, and even those three are lugging around a lot of artificial mass.

Artificial mass on the Klit brothers? Load of nonsense.

[loaded_gloves]

Oh sorry, those big bulging biceps and pecs must be genetic then.

[Flump]

The era is so bad I think the guys who are journeyman standard are finding themselves getting title shots. To me guys like Adamek (At Heavyweight), Chisora, Charr, Peter, Johnson etc don't have more to offer than the likes of Billups, Wills, Ocasio and Bigfoot Martin.

[matko]

Bert cooper used to box anyone anywhere anytime always exciting to watch

[HomicideHenry]

The recent post on Danny Williams prompted the observation that there doesn't seem to be a great number of HW journeymen about. The great, celebrated journeymen of our time tend to operate in the lower weight classes. My question is why?

Perhaps the explanation is obvious - that HW stoppages tend to involve concussive punches from very large men and there's a limit on how much of this a guy can take. But are there other reasons? A simple lack of numbers in the heavyweight division? A lack of dedication on the part of heavyweights who don't quite make the grade? Stricter treatment of heavyweights with losing records by the licencing authorities?

Of course we have the Hastings Rasanis of this world - who are the other respected HW journeymen out there?

Heavyweight journeyman..... Monte Barrett.

[loaded_gloves]

The era is so bad I think the guys who are journeyman standard are finding themselves getting title shots. To me guys like Adamek (At Heavyweight), Chisora, Charr, Peter, Johnson etc don't have more to offer than the likes of Billups, Wills, Ocasio and Bigfoot Martin.

You are very, very right, and it's something I've long believed. Often the top 10 today is riddled with men who wouldn't be well regarded journeymen in the 1980s and 90s, particularly those specific names and others.

Look at the fit, game, hard hitting Billups who came off the floor to beat Bonecrusher then went 10 easy with Lennox Lewis the next time out. Can you imagine Chris Arreola or Kevin Johnson doing that?

The fit Mark Wills who was lively and throwing bombs, when he was actually given a training camp, like his fights with Greg Page and Tim Witherspoon, was fornicating scary. He's Chisora but fit and with KO power!

The guys in the top 10 and getting title shots today, they're not good fighters, they're lazy, lack defensive nous, any spark, it's actually appalling.

[Flump]

The era is so bad I think the guys who are journeyman standard are finding themselves getting title shots. To me guys like Adamek (At Heavyweight), Chisora, Charr, Peter, Johnson etc don't have more to offer than the likes of Billups, Wills, Ocasio and Bigfoot Martin.

You are very, very right, and it's something I've long believed. Often the top 10 today is riddled with men who wouldn't be well regarded journeymen in the 1980s and 90s, particularly those specific names and others.

Look at the fit, game, hard hitting Billups who came off the floor to beat Bonecrusher then went 10 easy with Lennox Lewis the next time out. Can you imagine Chris Arreola or Kevin Johnson doing that?

The fit Mark Wills who was lively and throwing bombs, when he was actually given a training camp, like his fights with Greg Page and Tim Witherspoon, was effing scary. He's Chisora but fit and with KO power!

The guys in the top 10 and getting title shots today, they're not good fighters, they're lazy, lack defensive nous, any spark, it's actually appalling.

All true, and I don't think it's nostalgia, you just have to watch the fights.

I watched Coetzee-Dokes the other day and I haven't seen a heavyweight fight with that many punches thrown in years, and it's not even remembered as a particularly good fight.

[mickey1975]

So why cant a country as big as America produce someone who can fight?

[danconnollyeire]

I watched Purrity vs Wlad last night. He was one tough bastard

[loaded_gloves]

I watched Coetzee-Dokes the other day and I haven't seen a heavyweight fight with that many punches thrown in years, and it's not even remembered as a particularly good fight.

And people excuse Wladimir's losses to Puritty and Brewster because he "punched himself out."

Well Christ, if Wlad couldn't handle that pace, against men in that shape, and he was near diaster versus the obese Sam Peter, how would he survive the relentless pace and horrorshow intensity of Coetzee/Dokes, or Weaver/Coetzee, Holmes-Shavers 1/Weaver/Cooney/Snipes/Witherspoon/Berbick, Berbick/Snipes, Frazier/Ali 1, Norton/Holmes, Foreman/Lyle, Foreman/Frazier, Lyle/Shavers, Page/Coetzee, Thomas/Weaver, Frazier/Ellis/Mathis/Quarry/Bonavena, Tyson/Tucker, Douglas/Tyson, Lyle/Bugner... on and on.

Wlad would be lucky to be considered in Jeff Merritt's league in these eras.

[bripez]

Artificial mass on the Klit brothers? Load of nonsense.

Nonesense ? - weren't one of them banned as an amateur for taking gear ?

Both boxers were taken away from home at a very young age and lived in an institution - do you think that they were brought up on fruit and veg ?