Ali vs. Johansson

[HomicideHenry]

At the time of the famous sparring session in Miami, Muhammad Ali was 4-0-0 as a professional, while Johansson was already the former champion of the world, and was as an amateur a silver medalist. Much ballyhoo and bullshit has been made about this little nothing sparring session, where Ali scribes want to claim he was so good, even at that early in his career, he could have beaten Johansson in an actual fight.

According to Johansson himself, he stated that Ali was badmouthing him while the session was going, and Dundee was yelling at Johansson not to throw his right hand, and between all the guff and blabbing Team Johansson said enough was enough and ended the sparring session. According to Ali, he makes the claim he was so fast, so good, that Johansson couldn't even land on him. Myself I am a believer that between two extremes, therein lies the truth. I think Johansson's story is closer to that truth, but I am sure the young upstart did amaze Johansson with his speed, at least.

So, here it goes gents, time to seperate the realists from the 'true believers', Ali at 4-0-0, against Ingemar Johansson, while in prep for the rubber match with Patterson, scheduled for ten rounds, who takes it and why?

[Brutu]

From what I remember reading about it,
Ingemar Johansson while training for the third fight with
Floyd Patterson had done a public
sparring exhibition at the Miami Convention Centre
February.6.1961.
For it he would box 2 rounds each with three different sparring partners.
One of which I think did not show up,so Angelo Dundee had asked them
almost at the last minute if Cassius Clay(195 lbs) could subsitute for the one.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=QP6wZPuAZp8

does it look as really one-sided to anyone here?

[HomicideHenry]

From what I remember reading about it,
Ingemar Johansson while training for the third fight with
Floyd Patterson had done a public
sparring exhibition at the Miami Convention Centre
February.6.1961.
For it he would box 2 rounds each with three different sparring partners.
One of which I think did not show up,so Angelo Dundee had asked them
almost at the last minute if Cassius Clay(195 lbs) could subsitute for the one.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=QP6wZPuAZp8

does it look as really one-sided to anyone here?

From what I have seen, you can tell (obviously) Johansson isn't uploading much of anything on Ali, and not because the kid was so well advanced either. One sided, hardly. Is clear cut, imho, to see the difference between a saavy professional and a young upstart. Johansson could of landed his overhand right at will if he wanted to, am sure.

[Brutu]

The day before Johansson had taken on 3 sparring partners at the Miami Beach Convention Centre,he had knocked down one of his sparring partners,
Billy Stephens of St.Louis at Johansson's training camp at Palm Beach.
here is what Johansson said about sparring with Cassius Clay.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=KJ ... ,972006&dq

Johansson had said that wanted to spar with a mover because his other sparring partners had usually waited on him to move first.
He also said Ali appeared to be tiring with all the moving around
by the second round.

[crusader]

From what I remember reading about it,
Ingemar Johansson while training for the third fight with
Floyd Patterson had done a public
sparring exhibition at the Miami Convention Centre
February.6.1961.
For it he would box 2 rounds each with three different sparring partners.
One of which I think did not show up,so Angelo Dundee had asked them
almost at the last minute if Cassius Clay(195 lbs) could subsitute for the one.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=QP6wZPuAZp8

does it look as really one-sided to anyone here?

Is clear cut, imho, to see the difference between a saavy professional and a young upstart. Johansson could of landed his overhand right at will if he wanted to, am sure.

The clips shows them tentatively pawing at one another for roughly 30 secoonds. What part of that are your inferences based on?

[Brutu]

Look how slender Ali's arms were back in 1961 in this photo,
and Ingo looks really cheerful for some reason here.

http://gettyimages.com/detail/news-phot ... /148266109

[Brutu]

here are a couple of more publicity wire photo's


http://josportsinc.com/catalog/view.php?id=4860


Johansson looks kind of starchy here in this ring action photo below
if you ask me.Even though he was suppose to be in better shape
here then the second Patterson fight



http://josportsinc.com/catalog/view.php?id=6073

[Brutu]

here is another publicity photo of Johansson and Cassius Clay
examinging "Ingo's Bingo".
The photo caption states it is from 1965 but it looks more like it may be from 1961 to me.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/others ... age76.html

[Brutu]

Asked to critique Johansson's style a few years later,
Muhammad Ali had said,
"Johansson had a good left jab,a hard right,but no rhythmn."

[HomicideHenry]

Asked to critique Johansson's style a few years later,
Muhammad Ali had said,
"Johansson had a good left jab,a hard right,but no rhythmn."

Well based on ALL that evidence previously shown, I don't know how Ali could even say that of Johansson, when nobody was remotely throwing hard punches or trying to do real training that day.

[Brutu]

here is the link to the thread that Il Duce was speaking of,at
the Eastsideboxing web page.
its 5 pages long,and it wasn't the first time its been discussed and probably wont be the last.


http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?t=287282

[polecateddy]

I think Johansson would have got him out of there in the 1st or 2nd round. Ali was always a bit chinny.

[p4p1]

I think Johansson would have got him out of there in the 1st or 2nd round. Ali was always a bit chinny.

I know the guy was lucky he never fought a great puncher.

[HomicideHenry]

INGO and Cassius were almost going to fight in Europe in 1963.

Right after Cassius fought 'Ol Enry Cooper, there was the possibility of August/September 1963
bout with INGO.

Suprisingly set for either Switzerland or the United Kingdom I think, and not in Sweden.

INGO's chin was 'Swedish Meatball's' by then, and maybe he could have gone '10' Rounds,
if Cassius didn't open up.

That time, Ingo would have had the shot of going ten, but not winning.

I still maintain, though, at the time of the sparring session til Ali's fight with Doug Jones, Johansson would have been a favorite over Ali.

[Brutu]

In this interview with Cassius Clay published in the October 1964 issue of PLAYBOY magazine.Alex Haley asks him about the sparring session and if he could defeat Johansson in a bout.Its a really interesting interview to read in its entirty,esp about Liston at the crap tables, but for the discussion about Ingo
(scroll down to about 20 percent of the page to read that).

http://www.alex-haley.com/alex_haley_ca ... erview.htm


Muhammad Ali even says here,that Johansson wanted him to go back
to his Palm beach training grounds and spar in private
(where no doubt Johansson would have tried to land his"Hammer of Thor"
without the press seeing it,
but Cassius Clay's mother didn't raise no fool.)

[HomicideHenry]

In this interview with Cassius Clay published in the October 1964 issue of PLAYBOY magazine.Alex Haley asks him about the sparring session and if he could defeat Johansson in a bout.Its a really interesting interview to read in its entirty,esp about Liston at the crap tables, but for the discussion about Ingo
(scroll down to about 20 percent of the page to read that).

http://www.alex-haley.com/alex_haley_ca ... erview.htm


Muhammad Ali even says here,that Johansson wanted him to go back
to his Palm beach training grounds and spar in private
(where no doubt Johansson would have tried to land his"Hammer of Thor"
without the press seeing it,
but Cassius Clay's mother didn't raise no fool.)

I do know I heard a few times, that some heavyweights claimed that Johansson hit harder with a single shot than did Liston. While I do not know if this is to be taken serious or not, but that early in the game, am sure as shit that Johansson would have kayoed Ali.

[Brutu]

The myth over the years seems to have been that Cassius Clay was whupping up on Johansson
so much and embarrasing the former world heavyweight champion
in front of the press and television cameras,that Johansson's trainer
Whitey Bimstein
called a halt to the sparring session "after two rounds of it",
However it was suppose to have been for only two rounds in the first place.
I wonder if Johansson had also asked Otha Brown if he also would like to spar with him in private too at the training camp at Palm Beach?

[Brutu]

a newspaper article from the morning of 06.February.1961.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=MZ ... ,579676&dq


I always think its interesting which sparring partners some boxers
had used especially before a major fight.
Johansson had decked Billy Stephan(181 lbs)the day before febrauary 051961.(Stephan apparently was not a mover)
A few days earlier Billy Stephan lost a 10 round unaminous desion to Tony Alongi
at the Auditorium at Miami Beach.
Here is his ring record.


http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_ ... &cat=boxer

[Brutu]

A couple of interesting newspaper articles from October 1961,
concerning a possible Johansson vs Clay bout in Miami.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=So ... 1684644&dq


http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=tS ... 5365960&dq

[HomicideHenry]

Brutu, you are the man

[Brutu]

sparring exhibition at the Miami Convention Centre
February.6.1961.


http://youtube.com/watch?v=QP6wZPuAZp8

Even tho Archie Moore personally turned downed Ingemar Johansson's
offer June 1956 at the Epson Downs racetrack in England
to fight him in Sweden that Summer.
Johansson's team later seriously thought of first defending the newly won title
against Archie Moore before the rematch with Floyd Patterson.
(Jack Kearn's offered Ingo One Million dollars to do so,shortly after
Moore knocked out Durelle in the second fight).
There was also a Johansson-Moore bout scheduled September 1961 in Sweden,but it never happened either.

[Caractacus]

[From what I remember reading about it,
Ingemar Johansson while training for the third fight with
Floyd Patterson had done a public
sparring exhibition at the Miami Convention Centre
February.6.1961.
For it he would box 2 rounds each with three different sparring partners.
One of which I think did not show up,so Angelo Dundee had asked them
almost at the last minute if Cassius Clay(195 lbs) could subsitute for the one.



does it look as really one-sided to anyone here?

[Kalan]

Look how slender Ali's arms were back in 1961 in this photo,
and Ingo looks really cheerful for some reason here.

Not cheerful... Just smiling as usual...

Johansson knew he was very handsome and photogenic, so he smiled a great deal... He was a tremendous commercial success in America in the year he was Heavyweight Champion... So much so that it bit into his fistic skills somewhat - to the extent he actually had any skills... He had a pretty good offense -- but not much defense..