The Greatest Offensive Heavyweight of All Time

[HomicideHenry]

John L. Sullivan

Punching prowess and ferocity was so great that within four-five fights he was already considered the best heavyweight in America, and a growing minority claimed the best in the world. Under the Marquis of Queensbury rules his dominance was such that seldom did anyone make it two rounds with him, and those who made it to four rounds had been either dropped or purposely fell dozens of times in order to survive. For twelve years he was the champion of two sets of rules, bare knuckle and gloved, and supposedly kayoed hundreds of individuals in 'Knockout' tours of the world.


Bob Fitzsimmons

Imagine someone like Andre Ward or Mikkel Kessler coming up to heavyweight and winning the championship, on a knockout. Fitzsimmons was no more than 167 pounds and had the power of a Klitschko-sized heavyweight. Tremendous body attacker, he dropped the best middleweights and light heavies and heavyweights of his time. How good was he? When he fought 'Nonpariel' Jack Dempsey (who had been champion for seven years) he dropped the famous, popular champion 13 times in 13 rounds. He practically butchered bear-like Jim Jeffries twice, though he lost in both fights. He was so powerful that he destroyed tough guys like Tom Sharkey and Peter Maher in a few rounds, the same Tom Sharkey that went 45 rounds total with Jim Jeffries. Competitive until the age of 50 against the best in the world, he was feared even then.


James J. Jeffries

So strong, tough, and well conditioned his remarkable power as a puncher was made into legend. His overhand right was impressive, but it was his left hook that kayoed Corbett and Fitzsimmons. One can argue he was simply too big for the era, but my mindset was he was just a 'true heavyweight'. Undefeated as champion, he ranks among RING magazine's top fifty punchers of all time though he had just 22 fights. What a longer reign as champion would have had on his standing is anyone's guess; but what is for certain, it wasnt just racist attitudes that pegged him to be the favorite over Jack Johnson in Reno, Nevada---- in his day he was impossible to hurt, impossible to out slug, etc. when he lost (as with Sullivan vs Corbett) nobody could believe it. How tough and strong was he? He once fought the three best heavies in Britain on the same night and kayoed them. He loved the trick so much, he challenged Fitzsimmons, Corbett and Sharkey to fight him on the same night; and they refused. Sam Langford, the greatest of all times, used to promote himself as 'Willing to take on all comers, except Jim Jeffries."


Jack Dempsey

Started out in pugilism at the age of 15 after several years of tutleage under his brother Barney, and built a reputation that spread as far as the Midwest under the name 'Kid Blackie' in bare knuckle fights, claiming the 'Light Heavyweight Championship of the Rocky Mountains'. Turns pro at little more than 175-pounds in size, and has the power of a super heavyweight. His ferocity has seldom been matched, and his left hook is arguably the greatest in the division's history. A true giant killer, he defeated such men as Fred Fulton (18 seconds), Carl Morris, Jess Willard, Luis Firpo, Gunboat Smith, etc. in rather devestating fashion. Reign came to an end after three years of inactivity and drops a decision to Gene Tunney, and though he faired better in the rematch, he called it quits. Considered a comeback following Tunney's retirement, fighting over 100 exhibitions knocking out such fringe contenders as Meyers 'KO' Christener in short order, but loses a decision to the ever tricky Kingfish Levinsky and decides not to come back for keeps.


Max Baer

Max Baer was always a lovable and fun guy outside the ropes, but from his debut up until the Frankie Campbell fight he fought like a caged tiger in the ring. His overhand rights, whether they were thrown short or looping, dropped virtually every 200 plus pound man he fought. After the Campbell fight, that aggression and ferocity left him. He still punched like a son of a bitch, but the fear that he could kill a man with a single blow, weighed heavy on his mind. It held him back from potential greatness. Many a historian, fighter, and critic said of him "If Baer was more serious, he would have been the greatest of them all", and he very well could have been. After all he destroyed Max Schmeling, Tony Galento, Primo Carnera, and several others----post Campbell---- imagine how well he could have done, had Campbell of not died. But alas, he didnt have the heart for it all, and when he became champion the pressure was so great on him to be this kayo artist, he essentially gave up the title to Jim Braddock. Don't let the film CINDERELLA MAN fool you, Baer wasn't in the fight one iota, and nor was he this male schovinistic monster either. He was a man, who until his dying day, often woke up crying and screaming in the middle of the night plagued by what he did to Frankie Campbell.


Joe Louis

25 title defenses over 11 years. 4 of which, he only defended the title twice cus he was in the Army. His career was like a knockout serial, virtually every man he touched, went down. Arguably the greatest fighting machine from the waist up that ever lived; he could take you out with a six inch punch. His one round destruction of Schmeling is a textbook view of what one man, when perfectly trained, can do to another man. Baer fell, Carnera fell, Braddock fell, Schmeling fell, as did dozens of others who were good, inbetween, and great. Even the old Louis had the power to kayo Walcott and hurt Marciano in the early goings. Who knows how much greater he woud have been had it not been for WW2. Would he of made 30 title defenses? 40 title defenses? It's possible, there was nobody left who had a chance. Arguably more popular than Muhammad Ali in his heyday, Louis is arguably the greatest heavyweight champion of all time.


Rocky Marciano

He started off late, was short, had a 68" reach, and nobody thought he would make it. With a desire and passion that has never been matched since he came along, Marciano worked with a dedication that was boundless. True, when he began he was clumsy and bulled his opponents without skill or grace, but by the time he retired he was incredible to watch; he seldom got hit with a clean shot, and his ability to get inside on physically superior opponents was amazing. His incredible work rate in the ring was that of a middleweight pace, and each punch was the kayo punch. Most heavyweights, hell most fighters in general, start off with big kayo records and their averages begin to slip the further up the ladder they go--- with Marciano it was the opposite, of his 6 decision victories, 5 of which came before he was champion. Retired undefeated, beating the likes of Louis, Walcott, Charles, and Moore.


Ingemar Johansson

Critics say that Johansson was a 'one trick pony' with a right hand, and maybe they are not too far off the mark, but that isn't entirely true. Johansson had good movement, going in and out of range, and his combinations were fast. His right hand flattened Cooper, annihilated Eddie Machen, made Patterson look like a rubber ball in all three of their encounters. Some even say Johanasson hit harder with a single shot than Sonny Liston. Who knows. What is to be seen, however, is a man who was one heck of a power puncher, even if he didn't look good while doing it.


Sonny Liston

Imagine a world without Muhammad Ali. Then imagine just how far Liston could have went. He very well could have been the 'greatest of all time.' Nobody would have figured that in Liston's first few matches, they went to decisions. But sometimes punchers are built, rather than born. It happened with Tommy Hearns before Stewart turned him into a monster puncher. Liston is severely underated today because of the Ali fights. He was light on his feet for such a hulk of a man, he had a tremendous reach, and he had good hand speed. So powerful was this man, he actually knocked top notch heavies out with his jab. How great a puncher was he? Chuck Wepner (who fought both Liston and Foreman) said even as old as Liston was when he fought him, Liston was the hardest punching man he had ever faced.


Joe Frazier

Relentless, suits Frazier more than any other word that I can think of. His right hand, though good, was more or less a parrying tool to force guys into that 'Philadelphia Left Hook'. That hook made him defeat Matthis, Ellis, Chuvalo, Quarry, and even the great Ali in their first match. However, I can't help but think Frazier was great because Ali made him so. It happens to fighters. Think of Rodrigo Valdes and Carlos Monzon; had Monzon not of existed, would Valdes of been as good as he was, or would he of been worse? Monzon brought out the greatness in Valdes. Same as Ali brought out the greatness in Frazier. Unfortunately, everything else Frazier ever did was overshadowed. No wonder, even as late as the 1980's he pursued Ali to the ends of the earth to destroy the man he felt robbed him of being something greater.


George Foreman

In his prime, he was just ruthless. No remorse, no pity, he just tore your head off. He fought purely out of anger, and out of animosity and jealousy. It was as if he couldn't fight unless he was mad enough to kill. Unfortunately, it was that mindset that brought him tumbling down. Tough as nails, with a ferocity that was Dempseyesque, he was arguably the most dangerous heavyweight that ever lived. He blew away Norton in two rounds, destroyed Frazier twice in total blow outs, he wasn't supposed to lose to Ali. But he did. He tried to make the world forget it, but failed miserably in doing so. The 'Toronto Five' exhibition was impressive but it didnt erase the fact he was outclassed by Ali. Him blowing away LeDoux and Dino Dennis didn't erase the fact that he got outsmarted by Ali. Then the Jimmy Young fight, was too much to bare. Followed up by a religous experience, Foreman disappeared for a decade and was long thought to of either been dead or in some fortress of solitude sulking away. When he returned, it was shocking, not just because he looked like a fat guy but because he was not only lovable and funny, but because he didn't fight the same way as he once did. He was a tactician and counter puncher, and still hit like a ton of bricks. Evander Holyfield and others have said the hardest punch they ever took was from George Foreman. And that power helped him regain the championship, nearly twenty years to the day he lost it to Ali.


Mike Tyson

"The Baddest Man on The Planet" was never more suited for anyone than Mike Tyson. He certainly had the tools, the gifts, and the power. Had it been anyone else, though, to of beaten the kind of men Tyson did, that person wouldn't of gotten much credit. It wasn't who Tyson defeated that made him great, it was HOW he did it. His fights were almost like Popeye cartoons, with opponents flying around the ring, bouncing up and down off the canvas like they were basketballs, it was just incredible. However, his heart and mind never really was in the game; his broken relationships with wife Robin Givens, Kevin Rooney, Teddy Atlas, etc. all show a man who fought against discipline and authority. As he so sadly stated following his last fight as a pro, "My career was over after Buster Douglas". Even at that, however, he became the biggest star in boxing and the #1 ppv attraction for over a decade.



So, Who Is The Greatest Offensive Heavyweight of All Time?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Joe Louis

[BoxBuzz]

There ya' go.

Next question....

[keithmoonhangover]

It's a great list, but they only coined the term 'killer instinct' after one of the guys on the list..... William Harrison Dempsey.

[HomicideHenry]

As for who hit the hardest, its down to Liston and Foreman of those men. As for who was the best capable fighter among the group with all the tools, skills, etc. its down to Louis and Dempsey. However, I am a fan of Marciano, and I like his chances against Louis and Dempsey, but ironically not against Liston and Foreman.

[HomicideHenry]

As much as it pains me to admit it, when it comes to outright offensive, seek and destroy Heavyweights, the rapist ( Tyson ) can not be discarded.

Particularly the 85 - 89 version.

Personally, I never exactly saw Tyson as a quote on quote offensive fighter. His defensive head movements, parrying, etc. set up his opponents to make mistakes and then he exploded on them. So in a sense he was just a complete fighter in that time line you give.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

His head movement wasn't natural, it was programmed and thrown off by jabs.

[HomicideHenry]

His head movement wasn't natural, it was programmed and thrown off by jabs.

Cus D'Amato and Atlas taught him well. However, once he broke away from all that discipline, he sorted to bulling opponents, dirty tactics, and being a head hunter. Such a waste of talent.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

His head movement wasn't natural, it was programmed and thrown off by jabs.

Cus D'Amato and Atlas taught him well. However, once he broke away from all that discipline, he sorted to bulling opponents, dirty tactics, and being a head hunter. Such a waste of talent.

He had a very low ring IQ. Mike was a programmed robot of destruction, but he was incapable of adjustments. Tremendous offensive fighter, but he was mediocre on the inside. If he had a propensity to learn that speed and power would have been brutal in close. Instead after a couple of his rehearsed combos he was always happy to go into a clinch.

[HomicideHenry]

As much as it pains me to admit it, when it comes to outright offensive, seek and destroy Heavyweights, the rapist ( Tyson ) can not be discarded.

Particularly the 85 - 89 version.

Personally, I never exactly saw Tyson as a quote on quote offensive fighter. His defensive head movements, parrying, etc. set up his opponents to make mistakes and then he exploded on them. So in a sense he was just a complete fighter in that time line you give.

Double H, was he going forwards, or backwards when these things occurred?

Naturally forward. The pre-Douglas could bob/weave/slip his way in close, parry shots, and then catch someone with shots. Going forward doesn't automatically make you being offensive. That's the problem with people today, thinking you cant be defensive on the way forward.

[HomicideHenry]

His head movement wasn't natural, it was programmed and thrown off by jabs.

Cus D'Amato and Atlas taught him well. However, once he broke away from all that discipline, he sorted to bulling opponents, dirty tactics, and being a head hunter. Such a waste of talent.

He had a very low ring IQ. Mike was a programmed robot of destruction, but he was incapable of adjustments. Tremendous offensive fighter, but he was mediocre on the inside. If he had a propensity to learn that speed and power would have been brutal in close. Instead after a couple of his rehearsed combos he was always happy to go into a clinch.

Problem with that is, you can argue most any fighter is programmed. You go through the learning process, until it all becomes muscle memory and instinct.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Cus D'Amato and Atlas taught him well. However, once he broke away from all that discipline, he sorted to bulling opponents, dirty tactics, and being a head hunter. Such a waste of talent.

He had a very low ring IQ. Mike was a programmed robot of destruction, but he was incapable of adjustments. Tremendous offensive fighter, but he was mediocre on the inside. If he had a propensity to learn that speed and power would have been brutal in close. Instead after a couple of his rehearsed combos he was always happy to go into a clinch.

Problem with that is, you can argue most any fighter is programmed. You go through the learning process, until it all becomes muscle memory and instinct.

Training is certainly repetition, but the greatest fighters are able to adapt in the ring when plan A isn't working. Mike's plan B was hope to land a bomb and take it like a man. He was a great fighter, but he was a poor thinker in the ring. Similar to DelaHoya.

[HomicideHenry]

With respect the greatest ever fighters have never made it a battle of the chin. An offensive fighter, is a guy who looks to get at the opponent, as quickly as possible, by any legal means, and stop the guy. Of course he is going to slip, parry, and outright avoid punches on his way to putting his best offensive shots on the guy. That has got nothing to do with " today " it has happened since Jack Johnson's day.

I dont look at it that way. That's all apart of defense. This is a defensive sport. Tyson at his best used defense against his opponents in order to let loose offense. Tyson at his best was seldom ever hit with a clean solid punch. It was all defense---- now a guy like Dempsey or a Sullivan, they went gangbusters on someone, all offense. Some defense, but not to the point it was the central part of their strategy to get their shots in. They were risk takers.

[HomicideHenry]

Training is certainly repetition, but the greatest fighters are able to adapt in the ring when plan A isn't working. Mike's plan B was hope to land a bomb and take it like a man. He was a great fighter, but he was a poor thinker in the ring. Similar to DelaHoya.

That I can agree with to a point.

[dempseyfire]

I would say Louis or Dempsey.

[Bricks]

[quote="HomicideHenry

So, Who Is The Greatest Offensive Heavyweight of All Time?[/quote]

Well Tyson raped a teenage girl, mugged, stole, beat an old man, threatened to eat children and fucck a white man in the ass till the "faggot" learned to love it.........thats a pretty offensive heavyweight in my book. the most offensive HW of all time. So what are we debating for like nervous nellies?

[HomicideHenry]

Well Tyson raped a teenage girl, mugged, stole, beat an old man, threatened to eat children and fucck a white man in the ass till the "faggot" learned to love it.........thats a pretty offensive heavyweight in my book. the most offensive HW of all time. So what are we debating for like nervous nellies?

I am one of those who believe he's always been innocent. The state of Indiana is pretty strict and shows no bias to no man. I know, I've lived there for a while in my life. If he got three years, it wasn't because his name was Mike Tyson, it was because the judge knew there was some reasonable doubt. As Tyson himself once said, "I've done alot of things in my life as bad as this, and I've admitted them. This I didn't do." Call me crazy, I believe him. As for all the other, yeah its 'offensive'.

[witherspoon]

[quote="HomicideHenry

So, Who Is The Greatest Offensive Heavyweight of All Time?

Well Tyson raped a teenage girl, mugged, stole, beat an old man, threatened to eat children and fucck a white man in the ass till the "faggot" learned to love it.........thats a pretty offensive heavyweight in my book. the most offensive HW of all time. So what are we debating for like nervous nellies?[/quote]]

So, I'm assuming that you would prefer to debate the most 'offended' heavyweight of all time?

Jack Johnson would be my pick, some of the language and humour used in the press at the time of his reign as champion is extremely disparaging. I would be amazed if Johnson was not deeply offended.

Joe Frazier would be second, there is a big gap between them, however, as Joe only had one guy's offensive behaviour to tolerate.

[The Great John L]

Joe Louis

The only logical answer.

[BoxBuzz]

next question....

[man]

As much as it pains me to admit it, when it comes to outright offensive, seek and destroy Heavyweights, the rapist ( Tyson ) can not be discarded.

Particularly the 85 - 89 version.

[Ambling Alp II]

Ali and Holmes don't make this but Max Baer, Johannsson do? Handspeed, accurracy, combinations, not telegraphing your punches, need to factored in.

[HomicideHenry]

Ali and Holmes don't make this but Max Baer, Johannsson do? Handspeed, accurracy, combinations, not telegraphing your punches, need to factored in.

When I think offensive, I'm also thinking of kayo percentages. Holmes had a killer instict, sure, and he could be particuarly brutal, but he wasn't by no means blowing guys away quickly---- and with Ali, its more of the same, he had the instincts and the skills, but he wasn't blowing anyone away quickly unless it was someone like London, Dunne or Coopman.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Ali and Holmes don't make this but Max Baer, Johannsson do? Handspeed, accurracy, combinations, not telegraphing your punches, need to factored in.

When I think offensive, I'm also thinking of kayo percentages. Holmes had a killer instict, sure, and he could be particuarly brutal, but he wasn't by no means blowing guys away quickly---- and with Ali, its more of the same, he had the instincts and the skills, but he wasn't blowing anyone away quickly unless it was someone like London, Dunne or Coopman.

They would both blow away John L Sullivan quickly.

[HomicideHenry]

They would both blow away John L Sullivan quickly.

Quickly is the key word here. That is highly unlikely considering Sullivan at his physical worst went 21 rounds with Jim Corbett, who was a shade faster than Ali. I am not saying Sullivan could beat them, etc. however it wouldn't be an easy task to stop a man like Sullivan.