Floyd Patterson vs Cleveland 'Big Cat' Williams

[keithmoonhangover]

"After the layoff, he (Ali) was never close to this level". AAII

Not true at all.

Some of us won't be fooled by the Ali fan club propoganda put out ever since the FOTC.

As far as Williams goes, yes, he was a shot fighter in Nov, 1966.

Ali was better than ever against Frazier.

Single stupidest thing you've ever said. Hands down. I thought Richard Pryor was funny and then you come along. Don't mug yourself Saad, it's embarrassing.

I would try and explain why, but it doesn't matter..... Even if Ali himself told you he was better before the ban, you'd still refuse to change your blinkered opinion on this or any other topic.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

"After the layoff, he (Ali) was never close to this level". AAII

Not true at all.

Some of us won't be fooled by the Ali fan club propoganda put out ever since the FOTC.

As far as Williams goes, yes, he was a shot fighter in Nov, 1966.

Ali was better than ever against Frazier.

Single stupidest thing you've ever said. Hands down. I thought Richard Pryor was funny and then you come along. Don't mug yourself Saad, it's embarrassing.

I would try and explain why, but it doesn't matter..... Even if Ali himself told you he was better before the ban, you'd still refuse to change your blinkered opinion on this or any other topic.

[keithmoonhangover]

Single stupidest thing you've ever said. Hands down. I thought Richard Pryor was funny and then you come along. Don't mug yourself Saad, it's embarrassing.

I would try and explain why, but it doesn't matter..... Even if Ali himself told you he was better before the ban, you'd still refuse to change your blinkered opinion on this or any other topic.

If Ali told you you were wrong. Would you admit it?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Single stupidest thing you've ever said. Hands down. I thought Richard Pryor was funny and then you come along. Don't mug yourself Saad, it's embarrassing.

I would try and explain why, but it doesn't matter..... Even if Ali himself told you he was better before the ban, you'd still refuse to change your blinkered opinion on this or any other topic.

If Ali told you you were wrong. Would you admit it?

Nope, not that any fighter would ever say they were at their best when they lost a fight.

[keithmoonhangover]

Nope.

I actually feel sorry for you. I can feel your bitterness towards life from here. It must be a lonely life on your own. If you were in a steady relationship you'd probably feel better about things. That would require an element of compromise, which admittedly isn't your strong suit, but you never know - people can change.

[yancey]

Single stupidest thing you've ever said. Hands down. I thought Richard Pryor was funny and then you come along. Don't mug yourself Saad, it's embarrassing.

I would try and explain why, but it doesn't matter..... Even if Ali himself told you he was better before the ban, you'd still refuse to change your blinkered opinion on this or any other topic.

If Ali told you you were wrong. Would you admit it?

It is to Ali's advantage and legacy for the naive public (which includes you) to believe he wasn't ready for the FOTC.

Do you think someone with his ego is going to humbly admit he lost the most important fight of his career fair and square?

He wasn't a BIG enough person to do that. Instead, he belittled and tarnished Frazier's great victory any which way he could beginning within a day or two after losing.

Take that into consideration with anything he said as far as comparing his skills pre and post ban.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Nope.

I actually feel sorry for you. I can feel your bitterness towards life from here. It must be a lonely life on your own. If you were in a steady relationship you'd probably feel better about things. That would require an element of compromise, which admittedly isn't your strong suit, but you never know - people can change.

I'm quite happy, what does it say about you that you follow me around relentlessly? When I don't care for someone I don't comment on every post they make and transparently beg for an argument day after day.

I think Ali was just as good after the layoff. There isn't any footage I haven't seen, nothing will ever change my mind. Somehow, you'll just have to learn to live with it as part of your oh so fulfilling life.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

If Ali told you you were wrong. Would you admit it?

It is to Ali's advantage and legacy for the naive public (which includes you) to believe he wasn't ready for the FOTC.

Do you think someone with his ego is going to humbly admit he lost the most important fight of his career fair and square?

He wasn't a BIG enough person to do that. Instead, he belittled and tarnished Frazier's great victory any which way he could beginning within a day or two after losing.

I wouldn't believe a word he said as far as comparing his ability pre and post ban.

Manny Pacquiao said Barrera was his toughest opponent. I guess that's a fact too?

[keithmoonhangover]

It is to Ali's advantage and legacy for the naive public (which includes you) to believe he wasn't ready for the FOTC.

Do you think someone with his ego is going to humbly admit he lost the most important fight of his career fair and square?

He wasn't a BIG enough person to do that. Instead, he belittled and tarnished Frazier's great victory any which way he could beginning within a day or two after losing.

I wouldn't believe a word he said as far as comparing his ability pre and post ban.

OK, convince me. Explain to me why Ali benefited from the three year gap in his career. I mean, physically, mentally etc etc. I'll happily change my mind if you put up a strong enough arguement.

[keithmoonhangover]

Nope.

I actually feel sorry for you. I can feel your bitterness towards life from here. It must be a lonely life on your own. If you were in a steady relationship you'd probably feel better about things. That would require an element of compromise, which admittedly isn't your strong suit, but you never know - people can change.

I'm quite happy, what does it say about you that you follow me around relentlessly? When I don't care for someone I don't comment on every post they make and transparently beg for an argument day after day.

I think Ali was just as good after the layoff. There isn't any footage I haven't seen, nothing will ever change my mind. Somehow, you'll just have to learn to live with it as part of your oh so fulfilling life.

1. I don't follow you anywhere, it's a boxing forum and I'm a boxing fan.
2. I don't enjoy arguing. I present facts and you turn into a three year old.
3. My 'oh so fulfilling life' involves an amazing woman and amazing children. I wake up happy and go to bed happy pretty much every single day.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I actually feel sorry for you. I can feel your bitterness towards life from here. It must be a lonely life on your own. If you were in a steady relationship you'd probably feel better about things. That would require an element of compromise, which admittedly isn't your strong suit, but you never know - people can change.

I'm quite happy, what does it say about you that you follow me around relentlessly? When I don't care for someone I don't comment on every post they make and transparently beg for an argument day after day.

I think Ali was just as good after the layoff. There isn't any footage I haven't seen, nothing will ever change my mind. Somehow, you'll just have to learn to live with it as part of your oh so fulfilling life.

1. I don't follow you anywhere, it's a boxing forum and I'm a boxing fan.
2. I don't enjoy arguing. I present facts and you turn into a three year old.
3. My 'oh so fulfilling life' involves an amazing woman and amazing children. I wake up happy and go to bed happy pretty much every single day.

[keithmoonhangover]

1. I don't follow you anywhere, it's a boxing forum and I'm a boxing fan.
2. I don't enjoy arguing. I present facts and you turn into a three year old.
3. My 'oh so fulfilling life' involves an amazing woman and amazing children. I wake up happy and go to bed happy pretty much every single day.

[/quote]

That's a picture of me going to sleep happy.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

1. I don't follow you anywhere, it's a boxing forum and I'm a boxing fan.
2. I don't enjoy arguing. I present facts and you turn into a three year old.
3. My 'oh so fulfilling life' involves an amazing woman and amazing children. I wake up happy and go to bed happy pretty much every single day.

That's a picture of me going to sleep happy.[/quote]

Dreaming of me.

[keithmoonhangover]

1. I don't follow you anywhere, it's a boxing forum and I'm a boxing fan.
2. I don't enjoy arguing. I present facts and you turn into a three year old.
3. My 'oh so fulfilling life' involves an amazing woman and amazing children. I wake up happy and go to bed happy pretty much every single day.

That's a picture of me going to sleep happy.

Dreaming of me.[/quote]

Do you want me to dream of you? Do you like men Saad? Is that why you're single?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Your dreams are insignificant to me. You obviously spend quite a lot of time coming up with armchair theories about my life. If I'm that important to you, knock yourself out.

[yancey]

It is to Ali's advantage and legacy for the naive public (which includes you) to believe he wasn't ready for the FOTC.

Do you think someone with his ego is going to humbly admit he lost the most important fight of his career fair and square?

He wasn't a BIG enough person to do that. Instead, he belittled and tarnished Frazier's great victory any which way he could beginning within a day or two after losing.

I wouldn't believe a word he said as far as comparing his ability pre and post ban.

OK, convince me. Explain to me why Ali benefited from the three year gap in his career. I mean, physically, mentally etc etc. I'll happily change my mind if you put up a strong enough arguement.

Do you really think that three gap was really that big of a deal for a young man like Ali?

Do you really think he stayed completely out of the gym and sparring the entire three years?

Do you realize that Ali had THREE times the actual rounds in the ring against stiffer competition than Frazier did in the run-up to the fight?

Do you realize Frazier had health issues coming into the fight and was coming off a fractured ankle suffered less than a year before the big event?

The "three year layoff" crap was hyped by the willing media to spoon feed to the dumbass public as an excuse for Ali losing the most important fight of his career.

Looks like you swallowed it hook, line, and sinker.

Learn to think critically, man.

[keithmoonhangover]

Your dreams are insignificant to me. You obviously spend quite a lot of time coming up with armchair theories about my life. If I'm that important to you, knock yourself out.

Only a lonely man, who can't hold down a relationship would talk like that.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Your dreams are insignificant to me. You obviously spend quite a lot of time coming up with armchair theories about my life. If I'm that important to you, knock yourself out.

Only a lonely man, who can't hold down a relationship would talk like that.

[keithmoonhangover]

It is to Ali's advantage and legacy for the naive public (which includes you) to believe he wasn't ready for the FOTC.

Do you think someone with his ego is going to humbly admit he lost the most important fight of his career fair and square?

He wasn't a BIG enough person to do that. Instead, he belittled and tarnished Frazier's great victory any which way he could beginning within a day or two after losing.

I wouldn't believe a word he said as far as comparing his ability pre and post ban.

OK, convince me. Explain to me why Ali benefited from the three year gap in his career. I mean, physically, mentally etc etc. I'll happily change my mind if you put up a strong enough arguement.

Do you really think that three gap was really that big of a deal for a young man like Ali?

Do you really think he stayed completely out of the gym and sparring the entire three years?

Do you realize that Ali had THREE times the actual rounds in the ring against stiffer competition than Frazier did in the run-up to the fight?

Do you realize Frazier had health issues coming into the fight and was coming off a fractured ankle suffered less than a year before the big event?

The "three year layoff" crap was hyped by the willing media to spoon feed to the dumbass public as an excuse for Ali losing the most important fight of his career.

Looks like you swallowed it hook, line, and sinker.

Learn to think critically, man.

I do think critically. I am not a fanboy of any past fighter when it comes to these discussions.

I asked you to explain to me why and you fired questions back at me.

Come on, explain it to me.

[keithmoonhangover]

Your dreams are insignificant to me. You obviously spend quite a lot of time coming up with armchair theories about my life. If I'm that important to you, knock yourself out.

Only a lonely man, who can't hold down a relationship would talk like that.

That's you asleep on your own.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Only a lonely man, who can't hold down a relationship would talk like that.

That's you asleep on your own.

[misterpunch]

lets get real here - ali built his technique on tons of movement - dancing - and in his pre-layoff days he danced around his opponents using his reflexes and movement to avoid getting hit. after the lay-off, as we all know, he couldnt dance and move for any great length of time any more and had to spend more time on the ropes sucking up punches. older and slower but still very ring smart.

[keithmoonhangover]

lets get real here - ali built his technique on tons of movement - dancing - and in his pre-layoff days he danced around his opponents using his reflexes and movement to avoid getting hit. after the lay-off, as we all know, he couldnt dance and move for any great length of time any more and had to spend more time on the ropes sucking up punches. older and slower but still very ring smart.

[yancey]

lets get real here - ali built his technique on tons of movement - dancing - and in his pre-layoff days he danced around his opponents using his reflexes and movement to avoid getting hit. after the lay-off, as we all know, he couldnt dance and move for any great length of time any more and had to spend more time on the ropes sucking up punches. older and slower but still very ring smart.

Yes, that's it!

It's that layoff, it caused everything!

I mean, without that layoff, the Greatest would have floated around the ring all 15 rounds against Frazier in 1971 without even being touched!

I mean, Frazier certainly did not cut off the ring, apply more pressure, and force the Greatest to steal time against the ropes anymore than Ernie Terrell, Zora Folley, and the absolute prime Cleveland Williams ever did!!!

Can't you all see?

It was the layoff!!!

[keithmoonhangover]

lets get real here - ali built his technique on tons of movement - dancing - and in his pre-layoff days he danced around his opponents using his reflexes and movement to avoid getting hit. after the lay-off, as we all know, he couldnt dance and move for any great length of time any more and had to spend more time on the ropes sucking up punches. older and slower but still very ring smart.

Yes, that's it!

It's that layoff, it caused everything!

I mean, without that layoff, the Greatest would have floated around the ring all 15 rounds against Frazier in 1971 without even being touched!

I mean, Frazier certainly did not cut off the ring, apply more pressure, and force the Greatest to steal time against the ropes anymore than Ernie Terrell, Zora Folley, and the absolute prime Cleveland Williams ever did!!!

Can't you all see?

It was the layoff!!!

Highlights of Ali - Williams
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6q_TfvWqvc

Highlights of Ali - Frazier.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQhFhdmW6Vs

Ali in the Williams fight is clearly in better shape, has better movement, foot speed, hand speed.

Compare Ali's first round vs Bonavena.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMrJEloGGao

.... against Ali vs Liston.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OezriPEepZs

His reflexes, hand speed and foot speed are clearly better in the Liston fight.

Now, anyone who disagrees...... show me a video after the ban where Ali's foot speed is as fast as this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzWynvBLJ4I

That's it, there isn't one.